Moderating

[Immenseman]

This thread is my concerns of the effectiveness of the system you use to moderate the users and the forum in general. As I understand it you use a variety of measures to "punish" members who break the rules. They consist of PMs, user notes, warnings and infractions often handed out in that order.

As some of you may know I recently received a PM from management telling me I had clocked up 20+ user notes and numerous infractions and warnings over the last year. I'm not going to argue my individual case because I'd rather the system was looked at and the flaws eradicated or at least altered to ensure that moderating is as effective as it can be.

With the user notes, apparently I have way too many. This is the problem. People who have 15+, I know other members have that many should be banned is what I gathered after speaking to nvrspk4. Right, how are we supposed to know how many user notes we have picked up? I really don't understand this. I had no idea if I had 21 or 3.

I spoke to the General and Forum manager about this already. Nvrspk4 told me that usually PMs are sent with user notes to alert the users they have broken the rules. I now understand this isn't always the case but it often is. I can confirm that I have had no way near this many PMs. I think it should be mandatory - every time a user note is placed on your account you should receive a PM telling you so or at least more regularly than at the moment. I'd say the only super moderator who issues PMs and probably uses the system well is Catzsy. There may be more who I haven't encountered.

It's all well and good telling me I have 20+ user notes and that it isn't acceptable. However, if I had been sent a PM with each and every one then I wouldn't have so many. I personally see this as a communication failure on your behalf. Rather than threatening users with banning them because they've clocked up too many how about you spend your valuable time doing something worth while and change the rule so that moderators should PM the user each time a user note is issued. I don't care about time restraints - you shouldn't implement a system that isn't practical.

We're the members, some of us paying member yet you can't even spend approximately 30 seconds sending a PM telling us we have been issued a user note for posting inappropriately for example. That would eradicate the communication issue and let users know they've broken the equivocal rules.

Also, I then asked nvrspk4 to tell me what some of my user notes were for. He gave me a list of a few of the breaches. Numerous of them were for the same offence. Thus I think if a moderator is going to issue a user note to a member for trolling lets say and they see they already have one for trolling then surely they can make it a warning instead. At least with warnings we can see how many we've built up and acknowledge them and alter our behaviour to ensure we don't fall foul of the same offence again. I have numerous user notes for the same offence. I'm not even talking user notes for the same thing twice. I've had user notes 3/4 times for the same offence, surely I should be warned for it after acquiring a user note for it twice.

Again, is this time restraints? Can moderators not be bothered to look through the user notes before deciding on what negative sanction to issue? That's the only conclusion I can come to. I don't want moderators to be cutting corners because it's just poor service to members, who I will reiterate keep this forum open. How hard can it be to see a member has had 3 user notes for the same offence? Instead of whacking another one on there which they won't even know about how about adding a warning or even an infraction so the member is aware.

As I've been writing this it has become evident that moderating isn't as good as I thought. I personally know it's riddled with friends of management becoming moderators but that is my opinion and can't be proven so I won't elaborate on that because, unlike some, I don't wrongly accuse when I don't know the full story . Instead moderators aren't doing their job througoughly enough, I am generalising because I can't see all my user notes and who added them.

Another point is you use things from over a year ago?! In my PM it mentioned things that happened 12 months ago. I said I didn't want to mention my individual situation but I assume that's the way it goes for all members. For a start, I have been banned in December 2008, yet you still look at things before then to try and ban me again. Do you always punish people for things they've already been punished for.

The way the PM was sent was rude and it was no coincedence it was sent yesterday after I proved a certain person wrong and they had to send numerous PMs to get their point across and finally their friend listened and decided to take action :rolleyes:.

At the moment, I've got 3 infractions which is more than I've ever had, yet you basically say I'm the worst behaved on the forum. If I was so ill behaved I wouldn't create this thread to try and improve things for myself and others. I don't see how I have had so many user notes yet so little warnings and infractions. The warnings and infractions I have had have often been removed or downgraded from infractions to warnings etc. I can see the last 5 on my user CP and 3 out of the 5 have been removed. Does that mean 60% of all moderating on my account is wrong? No, that would be unfair but you can't throw "facts" around without digging deeper and looking at each and every account individually. I was staff in January 2009, personally appointed by the General Manager so my behaviour can't be all that bad yet you say I've been so ill behaved over the last 12 months, I was still staff like 3 months ago until I resigned. Not fired, resigned. Whether I was going to be fired is another story :eusa_whis

All of my points seem to come down to skipping corners. I don't think this is right for members to have to endure. There are many people who would happily spend the time being a moderator and would do the task in front of them with depth, an element which is evidently lacking at the present time.

To conclude my points for those who don't want to read (I don't blame you):

• Send a PM with every user note
• Look at previous user notes for the same offence before adding another one
• If a member has 2 user notes about a rule they've broken again - issue a warning/infraction instead
• Before banning a member or threatening to ban, look into their account first and don't jump to conclusions

You can see my reasoning for such points throughout my post. I just added that for people who don't wish to read through the whole post, that was just to conclude.

[Robbie]

A PM is sent with every usernote (at least I send one anyway, and the other mods should), I'll comment on the rest in a minute

• Send a PM with every user note - I do
• Look at previous user notes for the same offence before adding another one - We do
• If a member has 2 user notes about a rule they've broken again - issue a warning/infraction instead We do. Usernote/PM, Warning, Infraction
• Before banning a member or threatening to ban, look into their account first and don't jump to conclusions - We do

You can see my reasoning for such points throughout my post. I just added that for people who don't wish to read through the whole post, that was just to conclude.

[Immenseman]

A PM is sent with every usernote (at least I send one anyway, and the other mods should), I'll comment on the rest in a minute

Well I spoke to Matt and Nvr who said it's usually the case but not always. There is no way I have received 20+ PMs regarding my behaviour but I've had 20+ user notes.

[Robbie]

Well I spoke to Matt and Nvr who said it's usually the case but not always. There is no way I have received 20+ PMs regarding my behaviour but I've had 20+ user notes.

Since september 08 you've had 23 user notes - the usernotes include polite pms given, warnings, signature oversizes etc, so you may not have had a PM always

[xxMATTGxx]

Well I spoke to Matt and Nvr who said it's usually the case but not always. There is no way I have received 20+ PMs regarding my behaviour but I've had 20+ user notes.

Correct. I also mentioned not all usernotes need a PM to the user as some usernotes can contain other information. For example; "If user breaks "rule here" contact "whoever" for them to be placed on auto ban" Where the user doesn't actually need to know about that. Although this isn't the case with your own situation.

Side note: People shouldn't really have usernotes for the same rule breaking more than once, unless it was something like a signature oversize.

[Hecktix]

As robbie said a PM is sent with every usernote, because really the point is to PM the user about the issue, as a polite reminder, the usernote is technically just a record of the PM.. and most usernotes are just carbon copies of the PM.

The system we are told to use is PM the user if they have no record of the rule break before then to record this PM as a usernote, if they already have a usernote with a PM reminding them not to break the particular rule, then they are issued a warning, if they already have a warning it then turns into an infraction.

I think one of the biggest problems with usernotes is unlike infractions & warnings, they don't expire. So it's a permanent record, which as you say, if you had a usernote for trolling dated back to Dec 2008, and you were trolling the forum today, would it be fair to give you a profile-visible warning straight away - but I suppose that depends on the moderator & their judgement.

I think in moderator's PMs we should make it clear that records of the PM being sent are being made, because there's no point in letting users see their usernotes because really they should be getting the PMs, then again there is the arguement if a user has so many, how can they keep track because obviously PMs are not permanent.

Looking at your usernotes, I'd say less than half of them would be taken into consideration when issuing sanctions, mainly due to some of them dating far back.

[scottish]

Could you do a 5 minute job, edit the group perms

Can View User Notes About Self Yes No

from no to yes, then you can see your user notes and see when they break rules and anything else

like atm i've had i think like 3 pm's (one from november) and two this year, but then i'm being threatened about being banned for being negative or something, if it wasn't for someone telling me this on msn i wouldn't have a clue?

[xxMATTGxx]

Could you do a 5 minute job, edit the group perms

Can View User Notes About Self Yes No

from no to yes, then you can see your user notes and see when they break rules and anything else

like atm i've had i think like 3 pm's (one from november) and two this year, but then i'm being threatened about being banned for being negative or something, if it wasn't for someone telling me this on msn i wouldn't have a clue?

Funny that, that isn't even on your usernotes.

[Immenseman]

Since september 08 you've had 23 user notes - the usernotes include polite pms given, warnings, signature oversizes etc, so you may not have had a PM always

That just supports my point. I obviously can't remember exact number but I don't think I've even had 12 or so PMs about my behaviour in that time seeing as I was staff for some of it I can't have been all that bad.

Correct. I also mentioned not all usernotes need a PM to the user as some usernotes can contain other information. For example; "If user breaks "rule here" contact "whoever" for them to be placed on auto ban" Where the user doesn't actually need to know about that. Although this isn't the case with your own situation.

Side note: People shouldn't really have usernotes for the same rule breaking more than once, unless it was something like a signature oversize.

Exactly. I was surprised when Nvrspk4 told me I had usernotes for the same rule breaking. I assumed it would be upgraded to a warning/infraction. Now you've told me that is the case maybe you and whoever can make sure moderators are clear about this because it's evident they haven't been doing so.

As robbie said a PM is sent with every usernote, because really the point is to PM the user about the issue, as a polite reminder, the usernote is technically just a record of the PM.. and most usernotes are just carbon copies of the PM.

The system we are told to use is PM the user if they have no record of the rule break before then to record this PM as a usernote, if they already have a usernote with a PM reminding them not to break the particular rule, then they are issued a warning, if they already have a warning it then turns into an infraction.

I think one of the biggest problems with usernotes is unlike infractions & warnings, they don't expire. So it's a permanent record, which as you say, if you had a usernote for trolling dated back to Dec 2008, and you were trolling the forum today, would it be fair to give you a profile-visible warning straight away - but I suppose that depends on the moderator & their judgement.

I think in moderator's PMs we should make it clear that records of the PM being sent are being made, because there's no point in letting users see their usernotes because really they should be getting the PMs, then again there is the arguement if a user has so many, how can they keep track because obviously PMs are not permanent.

Looking at your usernotes, I'd say less than half of them would be taken into consideration when issuing sanctions, mainly due to some of them dating far back.

A PM isn't sent with every user note though, that's the problem. Once or twice is human error, people will forget things. This isn't once or twice though. Like Robbie! said I've received 23 user notes, I've had around 10 PMs I'd guess, that isn't on.

I had no idea I had so many. Maybe when it got to 15 or so I should have been sent a PM telling me it was too many. I don't understand how communication (other than catzsy) has been allowed to get so poor. It's ludicrous that so many can build up without the user having any idea.

Then one day someone turns around and says "any more and you're banned" you don't really expect that. If that person actually did it after 15 user notes and said this is your last warning it'd be understandable. Why on Earth would you wait until the user should be banned before telling them that they should be banned and moderators will be keeping a closer eye on you.

If all moderators and management did their job to the rule book, this wouldn't happen. However, that hasn't been the case. I wonder how many times this has happened with other people but they haven't mentioned it like I have.

[xxMATTGxx]

Exactly. I was surprised when Nvrspk4 told me I had usernotes for the same rule breaking. I assumed it would be upgraded to a warning/infraction. Now you've told me that is the case maybe you and whoever can make sure moderators are clear about this because it's evident they haven't been doing so.

We shall be having talks for sure.

If all moderators and management did their job to the rule book, this wouldn't happen. However, that hasn't been the case. I wonder how many times this has happened with other people but they haven't mentioned it like I have.

Like who for that matter?