Report Infraction Problems Thread ~ Should it be private?

[flatface]

haiiiiiiiiiii,

Just wondering, why is it that secondary appeals must be made via the support system? Wouldn't it make more sense to use the support system for any warning/infraction appeal. When users don't agree with the response to their appeal most of the time they have something else to add or a question to ask about the decision they're always redirected to the support system, I just don't understand why the system works like this... Like I said above, surely it makes more sense to abolish the thread and just use the support system instead?

Also, if anything to do with ban appeals is seen as private, why aren't infractions/warning appeals kept private too?

[Hecktix]

I think it would be a bit too much to use the support system to appeal infractions, the whole thing is a faff and in my opinion unnecessary even for ban appeals - the only reason it is handy for ban appeals is because it can be accessed whilst banned.

I don't personally like the appeal infraction thread and to be perfectly honest it's something I sometimes forget to check and to be honest with you I agree that infraction appeals should be private.

Perhaps it would be a better idea to have them dealt with via PM (i.e. PM a Super Moderator (and me) for a moderator's infraction or PM me for a Super Moderators infraction) - as to be fair a lot of people already do this.

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this idea from any members as it's something I am keen to change and +rep for bringing this up, Josh.

[Nixt]

The point of using the Support System is that when someone disagrees with their infraction they are, more often than not, keen to continue arguing their point over and over, creating a confusing dialogue in the report infraction problems thread. It is clearer and easier for us to have one thread, to which an individual can submit one appeal to either a Super Moderator (if a Moderator issued the infraction) or to the Forum Manager. The SMod / FM can then give their take on the infraction and normally, a second opinion really is all it needs. I think the decisions made in the thread are, 95% of the time, are perfectly fine and thus the support system is needed only as a secondary measure to prevent the build up of argument from a frustrated member and the Super Moderators attempting to appease him.

The Support System allows a clear appeal (if the initial appeal fails) to senior members of staff - myself, MattGarner and Oli, which is an advantage in itself. The infraction can then be discussed a lot more freely and clearly if someone choose to escalate the appeal.

I see no problem with the thread, and therefore don't see the need in shifting to PM. This, if anything, will only confuse things as certain individuals won't know who to PM or how to lay out the appeal. The Infractions thread provides clear instruction and clear reference for every individual to consult if necessary. Equally, I feel that something such as that is good to be in the public eye. It shows that justice is being served if an infraction is unfair, or that we do not waver on rules that should not have been broken.

Ultimately, I stand by the mantra I have cited many a time before now. I do not believe it is broken and therefore, do not try to fix it.

[Catzsy]

The point of using the Support System is that when someone disagrees with their infraction they are, more often than not, keen to continue arguing their point over and over, creating a confusing dialogue in the report infraction problems thread. It is clearer and easier for us to have one thread, to which an individual can submit one appeal to either a Super Moderator (if a Moderator issued the infraction) or to the Forum Manager. The SMod / FM can then give their take on the infraction and normally, a second opinion really is all it needs. I think the decisions made in the thread are, 95% of the time, are perfectly fine and thus the support system is needed only as a secondary measure to prevent the build up of argument from a frustrated member and the Super Moderators attempting to appease him.

The Support System allows a clear appeal (if the initial appeal fails) to senior members of staff - myself, MattGarner and Oli, which is an advantage in itself. The infraction can then be discussed a lot more freely and clearly if someone choose to escalate the appeal.

I see no problem with the thread, and therefore don't see the need in shifting to PM. This, if anything, will only confuse things as certain individuals won't know who to PM or how to lay out the appeal. The Infractions thread provides clear instruction and clear reference for every individual to consult if necessary. Equally, I feel that something such as that is good to be in the public eye. It shows that justice is being served if an infraction is unfair, or that we do not waver on rules that should not have been broken.

Ultimately, I stand by the mantra I have cited many a time before now. I do not believe it is broken and therefore, do not try to fix it.


Totally agree. It shows that the mods operate the system in a fair and balanced way and if they get it wrong it is put right in the public view. Also I do believe that members who read it get a better understanding of what they can and can't do and to them It is probably more interesting than reading the rules. Changing it to Pm could lead to allegations of favourtism whether justified or not.

[Hecktix]

The particular aspect of the thread I do not like is that it is sometimes embarassing for a member to be put right by a S'mod or myself - sometimes members get a bit argumenative and again I don't think this is right in public view.

I'm fine either way, I do what the members want but I also have to consider how easy it would be for me and my team too and one problem I have always had since I've been a moderator is that not enough people use the infractions thread even if told to.

[Grig]

Maybe have an infraction appeal sub-forum where a member can make a new thread or something and from there can discuss it etc. or make the settings more private. Although from my knowledge I have no idea how this could be. It would be nice of it could be made more private :)!

[flatface]

Maybe have an infraction appeal sub-forum where a member can make a new thread or something and from there can discuss it etc. or make the settings more private. Although from my knowledge I have no idea how this could be. It would be nice of it could be made more private :)!

I was thinking about this earlier, would be a good idea. I do think that infraction appeals should be kept private, which is one of the reasons why I created this thread. I think the AI thread is outdated - I personally wouldn't like my appeal or the response to my appeal to be publicly viewable to all of the forum. Back to my original point, ban appeals are private so why aren't warning/infraction appeals.

Also what Oli said - it can be quite embarrassing for a member to place an appeal via the thread and get a paragraph underneath it in red to explain why it is fair. I think it would save a lot of time to have a system like Grig suggested where a user can ask further questions or give further evidence to why their infraction isn't valid and not be redirected to the support system.

[Hecktix]

It would be quite easy to have a subforum - quite like the "Report Rule Breaking or Serious Abuse" forum where members can post threads privately and only Super Moderators & Administrators can see the threads.

[flatface]

It would be quite easy to have a subforum - quite like the "Report Rule Breaking or Serious Abuse" forum where members can post threads privately and only Super Moderators & Administrators can see the threads.

I think this would be much better, the current thread seems is also quite messy with previous appeals. A new subforum would allow members to view all their appeals made in the past if needs be, it also allows super moderators and administrators to search the subforum for specific appeals. It would be like the system managers use to request perms for staff, not sure if it's still used but it was when bomb ed was around.

[Nixt]

I'd be quite happy with a separate appeals forum for it, that wouldn't do any harm I guess. That way it can be easily monitored by several people. My main aversion to PMs is, as Rosie said, the claims to favouritism and the fact there would be massively long and argumentative PM exchanges that really are unnecessary. It would be interesting to see what members in general think of the idea of having a separate, private, forum for infraction appeals.

[Catzsy]

A private subforum would be no different to pms because the member could still argue all day long in a thread so the present system is better I believe. One appeal then support system. Also if a member breaks the rules then appeals knowing they have then it's their own fault quite honestly as they are just embarrassing themselves. If on the odd occasion one is reversed then the member is cleared publicly. This system keeps judgments well above board in respect of fairness and equality by the mods and management who have to justify the warning/infraction. It also shows when they have made a mistake to learn from and so is a good educational tool for everyone to equate them with the rules as I said above.

[Hecktix]

My main issue is that infraction appeals tend to be quite heated on the members behalf and sometimes in my opinion in a red edit myself and Super Moderators simply cannot provide enough detail as it could be seen as revealing private information about other members, like when I've said before "your record for this rule is not very clean" and things - technically this is against the rules but sometimes I can't justify a full infraction without saying this.

I don't personally mind a member arguing with my decision further and they should get a chance to reply to the decision, however after a second reply from me or a Super Moderator I believe that an appeal should be considered "closed" and further appeals should take place on support.

I don't think it's fair for other members to learn from other users mistakes, infractions are actually meant to be private and by using a thread you can see who's issued what and who's got what - as afterall most infractions reported are classed fair.

As Garion says I think it'd be interesting to see what people say to the idea of appealing in private.

[Catzsy]

My main issue is that infraction appeals tend to be quite heated on the members behalf and sometimes in my opinion in a red edit myself and Super Moderators simply cannot provide enough detail as it could be seen as revealing private information about other members, like when I've said before "your record for this rule is not very clean" and things - technically this is against the rules but sometimes I can't justify a full infraction without saying this.

I don't personally mind a member arguing with my decision further and they should get a chance to reply to the decision, however after a second reply from me or a Super Moderator I believe that an appeal should be considered "closed" and further appeals should take place on support.

I don't think it's fair for other members to learn from other users mistakes, infractions are actually meant to be private and by using a thread you can see who's issued what and who's got what - as afterall most infractions reported are classed fair.

As Garion says I think it'd be interesting to see what people say to the idea of appealing in private.


So there is going to be a poll?

[flatface]

I agree with Oli - members shouldn't be used as an example to other members , I also think that the whole appeal system should be kept private.

Can you add a pole please Oli :D

[Hecktix]

I'll put a poll in here but if it doesn't get much response I'll do a feedback poll and force people to vote ;l

[flatface]

I'll put a poll in here but if it doesn't get much response I'll do a feedback poll and force people to vote ;l

you go gurl

voted!

[Catzsy]

I agree with Oli - members shouldn't be used as an example to other members , I also think that the whole appeal system should be kept private.

Can you add a pole please Oli :D

Members break the rules in public so they are basically embarressing themselves if they complain about an infraction that was given correctly which is usually the case so why should they get this consideration? I do feel that that whole system should remain transparent in addition to protect the members & mods/management themselves from any perceived unfairness or favourtism. Making a forum private is a very easy option in my view.

[flatface]

Members break the rules in public so they are basically embarressing themselves if they complain about an infraction that was given correctly which is usually the case so why should they get this consideration? I do feel that that whole system should remain transparent in addition to protect the members & mods/management themselves from any perceived unfairness or favourtism. Making a forum private is a very easy option in my view.

I think it would be hard for a smod/management to display favourtism in a private subforum, mainly because other super moderators, Oli and general management will be able to view the appeals and double check them. If certain members want to be immature and accuse some staff member of being corrupt then thats up to them.

[Catzsy]

I think it would be hard for a smod/management to display favourtism in a private subforum, mainly because other super moderators, Oli and general management will be able to view the appeals and double check them. If certain members want to be immature and accuse some staff member of being corrupt then thats up to them.

I don't understand why you are so in favour of this. It would be hard, yes but it is not a transparent system which society leans much more these days. A ban used to be much more of a judgment call than it is now as 'autoban' deals with most of them. Manual bans were never discussed on the forum because they were much more of a judgement call in the old days and under some regimes this favoured the management more than the member.
*cough* *cough*. This DOES NOT apply to this management team. If there really was a problem with this system and if if did matter to the members that much a thread like this would be filed week after week, month after month such as the filter and pictures of members in avatars. I have never seen this subject bought up before today. If this is granted then it will jump the queue of issues that actually do matter to the majority of the members. Again the focus is on a small minority who shouldn't break the rules.

[xxMATTGxx]

I don't see an actual problem with the current way of dealing with infraction problems, hence why I voted to keep it as it is. Although having a sub-forum for it and keeping the threads private from other users wouldn't be an issue either, I can see why people would want that. But the thread has been doing it's job for a some time now and hasn't really been a big "problem" for it to be changed.

[Hecktix]

Just realised a bit of a flaw in this poll, most people that have voted (with the exception of one) aren't likely to be appealing infractions anytime soon, so these votes don't really count, hmm I think a better method of measurement may be a different idea - I'll think.

I'm not fussed either way - it's more work for me to have a subforum but I see the benefits of having it private.

[flatface]

I don't see an actual problem with the current way of dealing with infraction problems, hence why I voted to keep it as it is. Although having a sub-forum for it and keeping the threads private from other users wouldn't be an issue either, I can see why people would want that. But the thread has been doing it's job for a some time now and hasn't really been a big "problem" for it to be changed.

If the majority want it to stay the same, then thats fine and I respect that :D. However I do think the thread will need updating, it should reflect the current general manager (which is you) and not a general manager of the past (currently ---MAD---). I also think the thread should be cleared out more regularly then it is now. There should also be an alternative for appealing infractions specifically aimed at the members who wish to keep their appeal private - the instructions for doing this should be stated on the starting post of the thread.

[Hecktix]

If the majority want it to stay the same, then thats fine and I respect that :D. However I do think the thread will need updating, it should reflect the current general manager (which is you) and not a general manager of the past (currently ---MAD---). I also think the thread should be cleared out more regularly then it is now. There should also be an alternative for appeal infractions specifically aimed at the members who wish to keep their appeal private - the instructions for doing this should be stated on the starting post of the thread.

I know we considered making a new thread when myself and Garion became Forum Management, the current thread was made by ---MAD--- when he was Forum Manager which is an age away - it does need clearing out and I'll do that now, that's a benefit of a forum though, it wouldn't need clearing out.

I think Garion didn't change it because it's linked to in millions of places around the forum, however I see no issue with making a new thread which is something if this poll stays the way it is I will look into over the next few days.

[Inseriousity.]

Just realised a bit of a flaw in this poll, most people that have voted (with the exception of one) aren't likely to be appealing infractions anytime soon, so these votes don't really count, hmm I think a better method of measurement may be a different idea - I'll think.

I'm not fussed either way - it's more work for me to have a subforum but I see the benefits of having it private.

That Matt is a complete rule breaker, I'd keep an eye on him ;P

Anyway yeah, when the whole forum's been spruced up to remove subforums and whatnot, I don't think adding a new one when a thread has been going fine for years is a good idea, so I'd prefer it if my vote did count regardless of how many infractions I actually have or have not got.

[flatface]

I know we considered making a new thread when myself and Garion became Forum Management, the current thread was made by ---MAD--- when he was Forum Manager which is an age away - it does need clearing out and I'll do that now, that's a benefit of a forum though, it wouldn't need clearing out.

I think Garion didn't change it because it's linked to in millions of places around the forum, however I see no issue with making a new thread which is something if this poll stays the way it is I will look into over the next few days.

Oh I see, well you could aways merge yourself as the thread started and then the links wouldn't need changing :D.

[Hecktix]

That Matt is a complete rule breaker, I'd keep an eye on him ;P

Anyway yeah, when the whole forum's been spruced up to remove subforums and whatnot, I don't think adding a new one when a thread has been going fine for years is a good idea, so I'd prefer it if my vote did count regardless of how many infractions I actually have or have not got.

Well, a thread hasn't been going fine for years in my opinion and a lot of users send infraction appeals via PM to me - which I do not mind however at the times where I have diverted members to the thread they haven't actually posted their appeal - I'd be interested to know why members opt to choose this.

It wouldn't be a forum, it would be a sub forum hidden from view, it would probably be part of the moderation section of the complaints forum which would only be ventured to if a user wished to persue something like this, so the recent forum clean up isn't really relevant here as the clean up was about forums clogging up the index.

[Inseriousity.]

Well, a thread hasn't been going fine for years in my opinion and a lot of users send infraction appeals via PM to me - which I do not mind however at the times where I have diverted members to the thread they haven't actually posted their appeal - I'd be interested to know why members opt to choose this.

It wouldn't be a forum, it would be a sub forum hidden from view, it would probably be part of the moderation section of the complaints forum which would only be ventured to if a user wished to persue something like this, so the recent forum clean up isn't really relevant here as the clean up was about forums clogging up the index.

Isn't the point of contact when members are told they've recieved an infraction via PM which means it is only natural that they would reply back via PM? I imagine if you had a subforum, the same would still occur and you'll be directing people to the subforum instead. If they choose not to use the thread then that is their choice but that doesn't mean they won't use the forum either.

I never said it was a forum, I know he said subforum and the forum clean up involved cleaning up some subforums as well, such as the mess that was the Ask a Habbox Staff subforums and it also included reducing the amount of stickied threads in forums - I was instructed to do this -, so it obviously stretched further than just removing forums. My vote should still count.

[Hecktix]

Isn't the point of contact when members are told they've recieved an infraction via PM which means it is only natural that they would reply back via PM? I imagine if you had a subforum, the same would still occur and you'll be directing people to the subforum instead. If they choose not to use the thread then that is their choice but that doesn't mean they won't use the forum either.

I never said it was a forum, I know he said subforum and the forum clean up involved cleaning up some subforums as well, such as the mess that was the Ask a Habbox Staff subforums and it also included reducing the amount of stickied threads in forums - I was instructed to do this -, so it obviously stretched further than just removing forums. My vote should still count.

You raise valid points regarding the PM part, however usually users send their appeal to me directly rather than the Super Moderator - so they know they have to do something :P

In reference to being requested to clear up stickied threads - stickied threads are a major problem here at HabboxForum as a lot of them are stuck and forgotten about, although this point doesn't really refer to your argument as stickied threads are a nuisance, a hidden subforum in a place where only these users would go wouldn't be.

[Grig]

It's their private affair and I don't think anyone should be embarrassed in public if they don't want to. Using a sub-forum could make it more of a freer debate and any appeals can be discussed further even after the initial decision, so I feel it's a much better way just in short, which is why I recommended this idea in the first place.

However, I'm not too concerned either way as I was just suggesting :).

[Richie]

Private 'cause the vast majority of them think they are 'cool' when appealing publicly because everyone can see lol


Also why would the public need to see it?

[Sarah]

I can see the view from both sides. I think it being public for everyone to see is good and bad. It makes Moderators more accountable to the users as they can see if they are making daft or silly infractions. However, I can see it being used in a way to target Moderators or embarrass them. I think a sub-forum is a good idea and would probably look a lot nicer on the Forum - even if it was hidden/shown. However I'm going to side on Private on this one because in some cases users may not want it to be seen by other members to try and maybe get involved in the situation.

[Stephen]

If a mod made an obvious *** mistake then I'd want everyone to see how **** they are

[flatface]

If a mod made an obvious *** mistake then I'd want everyone to see how **** they are

This isn't about if moderators make mistakes or not after all everyone is human, they're bound to once in a while and to be quite frank, who cares?

[Hecktix]

If a mod made an obvious *** mistake then I'd want everyone to see how **** they are

The thread should most definitely not be there to ridicule moderators.

[Nixt]

I don't see an actual problem with the current way of dealing with infraction problems, hence why I voted to keep it as it is. Although having a sub-forum for it and keeping the threads private from other users wouldn't be an issue either, I can see why people would want that. But the thread has been doing it's job for a some time now and hasn't really been a big "problem" for it to be changed.

I agree with Matt. Although I would not be against a subforum I don't see the need to change right now.


Just realised a bit of a flaw in this poll, most people that have voted (with the exception of one) aren't likely to be appealing infractions anytime soon, so these votes don't really count, hmm I think a better method of measurement may be a different idea - I'll think.

I think all members votes should count because in fairness they are entitled to their opinion. Equally there is nothing to say they won't appeal in the future and in fact, they are more likely to appeal infractions they get as it will be their first or one of a small amount.


Well, a thread hasn't been going fine for years in my opinion and a lot of users send infraction appeals via PM to me - which I do not mind however at the times where I have diverted members to the thread they haven't actually posted their appeal - I'd be interested to know why members opt to choose this.

I think that's more than likely a "toys out of pram" situation where they get really annoyed with their infraction and think "Right, I'm going to Oli!". I think when they realise they have to go to the thread, and think things through more clearly, they decide not to appeal because they know they are in the wrong. I don't think anyone is embarrassed by appealing an infraction. That's a silly notion in my opinion, although I could be wrong.

[Catzsy]

Just realised a bit of a flaw in this poll, most people that have voted (with the exception of one) aren't likely to be appealing infractions anytime soon, so these votes don't really count, hmm I think a better method of measurement may be a different idea - I'll think.

I'm not fussed either way - it's more work for me to have a subforum but I see the benefits of having it private.

Are you seriously suggesting that only rule breakers have a say in this? If so that's unbelievable - this forum is for all the members who all are entitled to have a say on it. Obviously the rule breakers are going to vote for a private subforum. This is an example of what I was saying. Probably unintentional but again an example of a small few getting preferential treatment. If this gets a private subforum then so should rep problems as people maybe embarrassed to post in there.

[Hecktix]

Are you seriously suggesting that only rule breakers have a say in this? If so that's unbelievable - this forum is for all the members who all are entitled to have a say on it. Obviously the rule breakers are going to vote for a private subforum. This is an example of what I was saying. Probably unintentional but again an example of a small few getting preferential treatment. If this gets a private subforum then so should rep problems as people maybe embarrassed to post in there.

No I am not saying only rule breakers should get an opinion, everybody is entitled to their opinion however the reasons for such opinions need to be considered too - some people have said to me they like the thread purely because they like being nosey :P

What I meant in my post was that a lot of people posting are established staff and unlikely to be in the situation where they will need to appeal in a good while, I'm looking for more normal members to be voting in this poll.

Nobody gets preferential treatment at Habbox, Catzsy - it's an outrageous accusation.

[Catzsy]

No I am not saying only rule breakers should get an opinion, everybody is entitled to their opinion however the reasons for such opinions need to be considered too - some people have said to me they like the thread purely because they like being nosey :P

What I meant in my post was that a lot of people posting are established staff and unlikely to be in the situation where they will need to appeal in a good while, I'm looking for more normal members to be voting in this poll.


Nobody gets preferential treatment at Habbox, Catzsy - it's an outrageous accusation.

Well perhaps it could have been explained a bit better then as it didn't say staff and Garion thought the same thing as I did. Also I did not say 'intentional' but decisions can be made where it seems to be the case. In any event it does not look like senior management are in favour.

[Hecktix]

Well perhaps it could have been explained a bit better then as it didn't say staff. Also I did not say 'intentional' but decisions can be made where it seems to be the case.

Nobody at Habbox gets preferential treatment and I'm sure if they did Management would have picked up on it, those who get a few infractions are entitled to their opinion here and maybe their opinion is important here as it's them it affects - afterall we are talking about members with either 0, 1, 2 or 3 infractions who are not staff, as those with 4+ infractions will have to appeal decisions via support.

Whilst everybody else's opinion is valued and wouldn't be discounted, those who are going to be affected must be taken into consideration, and it's hardly giving rule breakers a choice it's more about normal members - I'd say rule breakers are those who have masses of infractions who don't get a say here anyway 'cause they get banned by their infractions.

Sorry if my post came across the wrong way, I'm just tired.

I'll repeat I'm not bothered either way this goes, I think the suggestion is an extremely worthwhile suggestion and I will take all worthwhile suggestions properly - this is something which could be implemented if members want it.

In a personal stance from me it's easier to post a new thread rather than have to set up a whole new subforum with complex permissions.

[Catzsy]

Nobody at Habbox gets preferential treatment and I'm sure if they did Management would have picked up on it, those who get a few infractions are entitled to their opinion here and maybe their opinion is important here as it's them it affects - afterall we are talking about members with either 0, 1, 2 or 3 infractions who are not staff, as those with 4+ infractions will have to appeal decisions via support.

Whilst everybody else's opinion is valued and wouldn't be discounted, those who are going to be affected must be taken into consideration, and it's hardly giving rule breakers a choice it's more about normal members - I'd say rule breakers are those who have masses of infractions who don't get a say here anyway 'cause they get banned by their infractions.

Sorry if my post came across the wrong way, I'm just tired.

I am not saying their opinion isn't important but no more important than normal members or staff. There is also nothing stopping members with 4+ infractions appealing against them after their ban - it has happened quite a few times. Some appeal infractions from weeks before. As I said nobody has done it 'intentionally' but the cause and effect of decisions should be considered more carefully as it can have that effect. That was all I was saying and I am not able to give examples as it would be seen as targeting which is against the rules.

[flatface]

Nobody at Habbox gets preferential treatment and I'm sure if they did Management would have picked up on it, those who get a few infractions are entitled to their opinion here and maybe their opinion is important here as it's them it affects - afterall we are talking about members with either 0, 1, 2 or 3 infractions who are not staff, as those with 4+ infractions will have to appeal decisions via support.

Whilst everybody else's opinion is valued and wouldn't be discounted, those who are going to be affected must be taken into consideration, and it's hardly giving rule breakers a choice it's more about normal members - I'd say rule breakers are those who have masses of infractions who don't get a say here anyway 'cause they get banned by their infractions.

Sorry if my post came across the wrong way, I'm just tired.

I'll repeat I'm not bothered either way this goes, I think the suggestion is an extremely worthwhile suggestion and I will take all worthwhile suggestions properly - this is something which could be implemented if members want it.

In a personal stance from me it's easier to post a new thread rather than have to set up a whole new subforum with complex permissions.

Can you not just copy the perms from the Report Serious Abuse forum?

[Hecktix]

Can you not just copy the perms from the Report Serious Abuse forum?

ye but it's still more hassle than creating a thread (A)

[Nixt]

Having thought about this a bit more, I am more against it than for it, rather than being indifferent. A problem that we have with bans, where members can reply and reply over and over, is that a member (who's ban is totally fair) will continue to reply to the ticket and try different methods in an attempt for us to reverse the decision. It requires an unnecessary exertion on our part because a lot of the time that member is simply trolling the support system. I feel the same will happen if we introduce a subforum - members will repeatedly post and post, trying to get their infraction reversed one way or another. What will happen? We'll close the thread of course, but they'll either post again and get themselves into more trouble or we'll become the bad guys who close infraction appeals and ignore them completely.

The current system allows them to appeal but also allows us to respond quickly and firmly, stating our points with a finality that I do not believe a subforum will give us. If they are really serious about their infraction being unfair, making a support ticket does not require that much effort in the context of the fact they have an unfair infraction.

[Hecktix]

Having thought about this a bit more, I am more against it than for it, rather than being indifferent. A problem that we have with bans, where members can reply and reply over and over, is that a member (who's ban is totally fair) will continue to reply to the ticket and try different methods in an attempt for us to reverse the decision. It requires an unnecessary exertion on our part because a lot of the time that member is simply trolling the support system. I feel the same will happen if we introduce a subforum - members will repeatedly post and post, trying to get their infraction reversed one way or another. What will happen? We'll close the thread of course, but they'll either post again and get themselves into more trouble or we'll become the bad guys who close infraction appeals and ignore them completely.

The current system allows them to appeal but also allows us to respond quickly and firmly, stating our points with a finality that I do not believe a subforum will give us. If they are really serious about their infraction being unfair, making a support ticket does not require that much effort in the context of the fact they have an unfair infraction.

This is a very good point, however there could be some kind of rules in a subforum which prevent further discussion, like I said earlier something like the chance to reply twice then the thread gets closed and they get directed towards the support system.

Although this would just make it silly, as it'd be two very similar things, one of the things I like about the current system is that it is very final and most agree (or at least give up) after the red edit appears.

It does not bother me either way, a thread is fine - a sub forum would be fine - the only plus a subforum has on the thread is privacy, although I am more than happy to look at an infraction appeal via PM or the Support System if a user is genuinely uncomfortable with sharing this infraction in public so that kinda eradicates the need.

I like Josh's idea - it's something new although I think it could be a bit of fuss for nothing.

[Nixt]

This is a very good point, however there could be some kind of rules in a subforum which prevent further discussion, like I said earlier something like the chance to reply twice then the thread gets closed and they get directed towards the support system.

Although this would just make it silly, as it'd be two very similar things, one of the things I like about the current system is that it is very final and most agree (or at least give up) after the red edit appears.


Having stringent rules would do one of two things, really.
1) Result in members getting into more trouble than they already are.
2) Make it so similar to the thread it's a pointless system anyway.

It's entirely unnecessary I think.

[Hecktix]

Having stringent rules would do one of two things, really.
1) Result in members getting into more trouble than they already are.
2) Make it so similar to the thread it's a pointless system anyway.

It's entirely unnecessary I think.

Unless anyone can raise any other benefits I am inclined to agree - that's not saying this is a bad idea because it's not, it's merely the same as what we have now but could lead to further problems.

---------- Post added 12-07-2010 at 10:05 PM ----------

We'll try out a new thread and see how that goes, if any problems appear (there aren't any atm) then we'll change it some day.

[flatface]

I didn't make this thread specifically asking for a private subforum, so i'm not too bothered if this doesn't get implemented. The point in this thread was to clear up a few things :)

I think it would be best that the current thread was updated in terms of removing the old appeals, changing the thread starter - ideally to Matt or Oli (as they are the most influential and suitable members of management I think) and to make it more clear as what to do if you wish to keep your appeal private and hidden from other members, for instance using the support system instead.

[Catzsy]

I didn't make this thread specifically asking for a private subforum, so i'm not too bothered if this doesn't get implemented. The point in this thread was to clear up a few things :)

I think it would be best that the current thread was updated in terms of removing the old appeals, changing the thread starter - ideally to Matt or Oli (as they are the most influential and suitable members of management I think) and to make it more clear as what to do if you wish to keep your appeal private and hidden from other members, for instance using the support system instead.

Agreed I have thought that for a long time. Lets see Oli as the thread starter and then the posts being regularly moved out. They always used to be. :)

[Hecktix]

All appeals older than 7 days will be removed from the thread when the new one is there :)

[flatface]

Much better Oli :)

[Tintinnabulate]

If the infractions are private, shouldn't the appeals be too?