Fur Coats - Yes or no?

[Judas]

Recently, a lot of high profile celebrities such as Lady Gaga, Kanye West and Kim Kardashian, to name a few, have been getting harsh criticism by organisations like PETA, the public and their peers for wearing real fur coats.

http://i.imgur.com/T9bn9.png

"Tell PETA my mink is dragging on the floor" - Kanye West's 'Cold'

Of course the debate of fur in fashion has been going on for a LONG time, but it's one that I have never really thought about. I used to conditionally think it was bad to wear real fur in the name of animal rights etc, but the recent attention and debate surrounding celebrities I am a great admirer of (Kanye and Gaga) has made me question what I really think about the matter.

I expect most will say it's bad and cruel to animals, and so did I. But then I thought of the leather that covers my couch and is used to make my shoes and belts, the woolly jumpers many of us wear in winter time and the ivory used to put the keys on my piano. Not to mention all the food I eat from animals every single day.

So I can't help but question my initial beliefs now with one question... what's the difference? Is it just that we've been led by the media to believe that fur coats are bad and wrong, or is it a deep rooted sense of jealousy because those coats are so expensive that most of us will likely never afford one? I mean, we're happy enough to support stores like Primark by purchasing cheap clothes that are made by starving children in awful conditions in third world countries. It's just hypocritical, isn't it?

This is not intended to be a debate about any celebrities in particular, nor about PETA. Of course these things and people can and should be used as examples to support your argument, but we are talking about the principle of wearing fur in general.

[Inseriousity.]

I don't really have anything against wearing them but I think a better question is why would you want to, they look terrible, the picture in your original post being exhibit A, B and C.

[Judas]

I don't really have anything against wearing them but I think a better question is why would you want to, they look terrible, the picture in your original post being exhibit A, B and C.

Lol I agree, except I don't think Kanye's is so bad. It's definitely a status symbol on the most part.

[Futz]

I don't think you should wear fur coats in this day and age where they are now just a fashion statement and there are better alternatives that dont cost the lives of animals.

In the olden days I think it's fine though where they were killed and worn for warmth but theres no need to anymore, all three people mentioned above are just prats with money, it wouldnt be so bad if they went out and killed the animals by themselves but they don't so screw them all

[-:Undertaker:-]

If you don't want a fur coat either because you disagree with them (why exactly? you eat meat) or simply think they look awful - then don't buy one.

It is as simple as that, meanwhile if I want to strut around in my baby seal skin jacket then so what? living in a free society means people will do things that you may not exactly agree with.

[Mentor]

I'm pretty meh on the issue since it essentially just revolves around people being worried about the cute fluffy animals. If we are going to eat meat & use products such a leather, its hard to form a valid reason as to why we should draw the line at fur?

[dirrty]

i don't care (unless the animal is endangered). i couldn't argue against fur coats whilst my various leather shoes are in my bedroom...

[Judas]

I don't think you should wear fur coats in this day and age where they are now just a fashion statement and there are better alternatives that dont cost the lives of animals.

In the olden days I think it's fine though where they were killed and worn for warmth but theres no need to anymore, all three people mentioned above are just prats with money, it wouldnt be so bad if they went out and killed the animals by themselves but they don't so screw them all

Are you a vegan? If no, then do you run out and kill the animals you eat yourself? Do you have any clothing made from leather? Did you go kill those cows yourself?

---------- Post added 18-08-2012 at 10:00 PM ----------


i don't care (unless the animal is endangered). i couldn't argue against fur coats whilst my various leather shoes are in my bedroom...

good point

---------- Post added 18-08-2012 at 10:04 PM ----------


If you don't want a fur coat either because you disagree with them (why exactly? you eat meat) or simply think they look awful - then don't buy one.

It is as simple as that, meanwhile if I want to strut around in my baby seal skin jacket then so what? living in a free society means people will do things that you may not exactly agree with.

I'm not sure if your post is directed at me personally, and if so then I will simply assume you didn't read my original post.

But what you have said is quite obvious, the point of this thread is for people to discuss those differing views about the morals involved in fur coats - that is what this section of the forum is for isn't it?

[Futz]

Are you a vegan? If no, then do you run out and kill the animals you eat yourself? Do you have any clothing made from leather? Did you go kill those cows yourself?

We need food to live, we don't need fur to live. I don't think I have any real leather products since I'm not a rich man but a lot of the leather that comes from cows are ones that are mainly being killed for thier meat, so if it's already dead you may as well make the most of the carcas

[Judas]

We need food to live, we don't need fur to live. I don't think I have any real leather products since I'm not a rich man but a lot of the leather that comes from cows are ones that are mainly being killed for thier meat, so if it's already dead you may as well make the most of the carcas

You're correct, we need food to live. However, we don't need meat to live. We could survive being vegans, so if you're going to complain that animals killed for fur are killed because of humans being greedy and selfish, aren't we doing the same by killing them for their meat when really we don't actually need to eat it?

[-:Undertaker:-]

I'm not sure if your post is directed at me personally, and if so then I will simply assume you didn't read my original post.

If it was aimed at you, I would have quoted you.


But what you have said is quite obvious, the point of this thread is for people to discuss those differing views about the morals involved in fur coats - that is what this section of the forum is for isn't it?

I have addressed this point, which, had you read my post you would see that in a free society I made the point that it doesn't matter what your moral stance on fur coats is - that it is not down to you or others to impose your own values or morality on anybody else. The owner of a fur coat may disagree with drinking or homosexuality - yet would we entertain the notion of banning either?


We need food to live, we don't need fur to live. I don't think I have any real leather products since I'm not a rich man but a lot of the leather that comes from cows are ones that are mainly being killed for thier meat, so if it's already dead you may as well make the most of the carcas

In that case we would make the argument that whilst animals are killed for food, many animals and many less animals could be killed because we 'waste' so much food/consume more than we need to.

[Judas]

I have addressed this point, which, had you read my post you would see that in a free society I made the point that it doesn't matter what your moral stance on fur coats is - that it is not down to you or others to impose your own values or morality on anybody else. The owner of a fur coat may disagree with drinking or homosexuality - yet would we entertain the notion of banning either?

Wait - who mentioned banning anything? Drop the politics for five minutes. The idea of the thread is simple - do you think fur coats are right or wrong? Why do you think so? This isn't about imposing values, it is a simple debate. Let it remain that way please.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Wait - who mentioned banning anything? Drop the politics for five minutes. The idea of the thread is simple - do you think fur coats are right or wrong? Why do you think so? This isn't about imposing values, it is a simple debate. Let it remain that way please.

Naturally with any debate such as this, people will argue for banning fur coats.

It's a part of the debate itself, although i'm happy to accept the views of those against fur coats on the basis that they don't wish to tell others what to do.

[Judas]

Naturally with any debate such as this, people will argue for banning fur coats.

It's a part of the debate itself, although i'm happy to accept the views of those against fur coats on the basis that they don't wish to tell others what to do.

But nobody has tried to impose their views on anyone and no one has mentioned anything to do with the legal status of fur coats so I'm just puzzled as to who you're actually debating this idea with?

[Futz]

You're correct, we need food to live. However, we don't need meat to live. We could survive being vegans, so if you're going to complain that animals killed for fur are killed because of humans being greedy and selfish, aren't we doing the same by killing them for their meat when really we don't actually need to eat it?

First off I never complained, I just said "I think...", it's just one mans opinions so drop the law suit. Secondly, I'd say we do need to eat meat for optimum health, it's not being selfish or greedy it's just the way it is, living as a vegan is tough we need what meat gives us

---------- Post added 18-08-2012 at 10:44 PM ----------



In that case we would make the argument that whilst animals are killed for food, many animals and many less animals could be killed because we 'waste' so much food/consume more than we need to.

People waste food, it's something I can't control

[-:Undertaker:-]

But nobody has tried to impose their views on anyone and no one has mentioned anything to do with the legal status of fur coats so I'm just puzzled as to who you're actually debating this idea with?

PETA as I understand it, which you yourself mentioned at the start of the thread, is an active campaign which argues for the legal ending of the freedom to wear coats - which as I said before, the legal issue of this is naturally a part of the debate. Indeed, we've even had hints of the legal argument in the following post..


as to why we should draw the line at fur?

In modern times, many people nowadays think their own moral values ought to be imposed via law (its always happened throughout history, happens in democracies) - I make the case that the moral and legal parts should remain seperated entirely. The idea that 'we' should be drawing a line at anything is entirely out of the question in a free society.

Now, are you done debating something you seemingly think has nothing to do with the thread?

[Judas]

First off I never complained, I just said "I think...", it's just one mans opinions so drop the law suit. Secondly, I'd say we do need to eat meat for optimum health, it's not being selfish or greedy it's just the way it is, living as a vegan is tough we need what meat gives us

You actually said "screw them all" in regard to people who wear fur coats so it isn't just as simple as "one mans opinion" is it?

You said in your first post that there are "alternatives that dont cost the lives of animals". It's the exact same for food. You can be perfectly healthy as a vegan.

---------- Post added 18-08-2012 at 10:54 PM ----------


PETA as I understand it, which you yourself mentioned at the start of the thread, is an active campaign which argues for the legal ending of the freedom to wear coats - which as I said before, the legal issue of this is naturally a part of the debate. Indeed, we've even had hints of the legal argument in the following post..

Yep, that's right. However I also mentioned at the start of the thread: "This is not intended to be a debate about any celebrities in particular, nor about PETA." :)


In modern times, many people nowadays think their own moral values ought to be imposed via law (its always happened throughout history, happens in democracies) - I make the case that the moral and legal parts should remain seperated entirely. Now, are you done debating something you seemingly think has nothing to do with the thread?

Are you done debating something that no one even mentioned?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Yep, that's right. However I also mentioned at the start of the thread: "This is not intended to be a debate about any celebrities in particular, nor about PETA." :)

As before, the debate naturally gravitates towards that all the time because staunch animal rights activists are often unable to accept the fact that we're anything but seal smashing aristocrats.


Are you done debating something that no one even mentioned?

I merely touched upon it dear.


People waste food, it's something I can't control

So am I right in saying that you don't think we should control whether people wear fur or not?

[Futz]

You actually said "screw them all" in regard to people who wear fur coats so it isn't just as simple as "one mans opinion" is it?

You said in your first post that there are "alternatives that dont cost the lives of animals". It's the exact same for food. You can be perfectly healthy as a vegan.

No you can't, you can't change scientific facts, if you compared the health (every aspect) of someone with the best meat based diet possible and someone with the best vegan based diet possible, the meat eater would come out on top. In my first post I was refering to alternatives to fur such as cotton or faux fur, it serves the same benefit. You can't compare that to a vegan vs meat diet as they dont serve the same benefit

Because I took a tone of 'screw them all' that meant i was 'complaining', ????? no chance

[Judas]

As before, the debate naturally gravitates towards that all the time because staunch animal rights activists are often unable to accept the fact that we're anything but seal smashing aristocrats.

You seem to be struggling to understand that no such views have come forward yet, you're putting up your guard already when no bullets have been fired. Chill.


I merely touched upon it dear.

And yet you've once again managed to derail a thread with your incessant ramblings about unimportant details.

Back on topic now please?

[-:Undertaker:-]

You seem to be struggling to understand that no such views have come forward yet, you're putting up your guard already when no bullets have been fired. Chill.

Well I prefer to give my opinion on all of the topic in one post you see.


And yet you've once again managed to derail a thread with your incessant ramblings about unimportant details.

Ironic, a read of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitpicking_%28pastime%29) would do you well.


Back on topic now please?

Thank heavens, I welcome it. :P

[Futz]

As before, the debate naturally gravitates towards that all the time because staunch animal rights activists are often unable to accept the fact that we're anything but seal smashing aristocrats.



I merely touched upon it dear.



So am I right in saying that you don't think we should control whether people wear fur or not?

We dont though

[-:Undertaker:-]

We dont though

No but i'm asking what you personally think of it as I get the hint you'd like to in your response to what I said about meat eating and waste.

It has to be said also on fur and even meat eating, that a great number of animals would have to be put down/culled often anyway as many are pests/are farmed - take away the fur industry, and they'd still be killed just the fur would go to waste and the taxpayer would be likely to foot the bill as the cull would no longer be profitable yet would still have to be carried out. The same goes for those who are against fox hunting + horse racing - most of these animals would still have to be culled regardless.

[Judas]

No you can't, you can't change scientific facts, if you compared the health (every aspect) of someone with the best meat based diet possible and someone with the best vegan based diet possible, the meat eater would come out on top. In my first post I was refering to alternatives to fur such as cotton or faux fur, it serves the same benefit. You can't compare that to a vegan vs meat diet as they dont serve the same benefit

Because I took a tone of 'screw them all' that meant i was 'complaining', ????? no chance

Any sources to back that up? I'm not denying what you're saying is true but I could pull some "facts" out of my ass to make my argument look better too.

You aren't gonna get ill at all just by being a vegan. If your claims of us having "optimum health" by having a meat diet are valid, then that's still putting humans on a pedestal over animals anyway. "Oh, we can survive without them, but just to make sure let's slaughter all these animals." The animal is still dying for human benefit no matter which way you slice it (no pun intended)

[Futz]

No but i'm asking what you personally think of it as I get the hint you'd like to in your response to what I said about meat eating and waste.

We shouldn't control it but it'd sure be nice if people shared the view that fur coats are a novelty and wasting food is something that should be avoided. My comment "I can't control that" was about how I it would be impossible and unfair to control food waste

---------- Post added 18-08-2012 at 11:18 PM ----------


Any sources to back that up? I'm not denying what you're saying is true but I could pull some "facts" out of my ass to make my argument look better too.

You aren't gonna get ill at all just by being a vegan. If your claims of us having "optimum health" by having a meat diet are valid, then that's still putting humans on a pedestal over animals anyway. "Oh, we can survive without them, but just to make sure let's slaughter all these animals." The animal is still dying for human benefit no matter which way you slice it (no pun intended)

I don't know what you're arguing anymore, animals strive for health too why do you think they kill each other, it's not putting anyone over a pedestal, its the circle of life. We can survive without them but not at the same level

"The animal is still dying for human benefit" i thought this was a given

[Judas]

I don't know what you're arguing anymore, animals strive for health too why do you think they kill each other, it's not putting anyone over a pedestal, its the circle of life. We can survive without them but not at the same level

"The animal is still dying for human benefit" i thought this was a given

Still no difference between fur and everything else we use from animals though

[Futz]

Still no difference between fur and everything else we use from animals though

fur = cosmetic
meat = useful

@under
the fur coats are usually those of exotic animals

[Judas]

fur = cosmetic
meat = useful

Then what about the use of leather, ivory, wool etc? Same concept. Even the use of animals in other areas like greyhound racing. Are you against all those things as well? If so then fine, that's your opinion. But what I'm trying to get at here is the hypocrisy when it comes to denouncing fur.

[Futz]

Then what about the use of leather, ivory, wool etc? Same concept. Even the use of animals in other areas like greyhound racing. Are you against all those things as well? If so then fine, that's your opinion. But what I'm trying to get at here is the hypocrisy when it comes to denouncing fur.

Just my opinion mang it isn't the same for everything, with leather, i'm not bothered too much since the cow will be used for meat so as i said before may aswell use the rest of the carcas, ivory is just hell no, pretty sure the world is against that, wool (presuming its from a good place) is just using resources of an animal and in return food water and shelter, from what I know greyhound racing is a dark buisness on which i have no knowledge of but i'd probably be against their methods

opinions are varied for different things man, you presume i'm "merrrr animals omg stop crewlty der dur derp" kind of tree hugger

[Judas]

Just my opinion mang it isn't the same for everything, with leather, i'm not bothered too much since the cow will be used for meat so as i said before may aswell use the rest of the carcas, ivory is just hell no, pretty sure the world is against that, wool (presuming its from a good place) is just using resources of an animal and in return food water and shelter, from what I know greyhound racing is a dark buisness on which i have no knowledge of but i'd probably be against their methods

opinions are varied for different things man, you presume i'm "merrrr animals omg stop crewlty der dur derp" kind of tree hugger

No I don't presume anything about you, I was just trying to understand your general stance on things

[Cerys]

Imo; As long as the animals fur isn't the fur of an animal which is becoming rare, I'm not fussed.

The thing is why would you ever want to wear a fur coat/any other think of fur... Yes, a small trim of fur around the hood is fine (they're usually fake fur anyway unless you get the expensive ones) but a full on fur coat? No thankyou. Doesn't look nice at all. Almost tacky imo!

[dirrty]

Imo; As long as the animals fur isn't the fur of an animal which is becoming rare, I'm not fussed.

The thing is why would you ever want to wear a fur coat/any other think of fur... Yes, a small trim of fur around the hood is fine (they're usually fake fur anyway unless you get the expensive ones) but a full on fur coat? No thankyou. Doesn't look nice at all. Almost tacky imo!
it seems that fur coats are a symbol of wealth. so those who wear them (regardless of how horrible they look) do so to portray themselves in a more affluent way.

[Judas]

Imo; As long as the animals fur isn't the fur of an animal which is becoming rare, I'm not fussed.

The thing is why would you ever want to wear a fur coat/any other think of fur... Yes, a small trim of fur around the hood is fine (they're usually fake fur anyway unless you get the expensive ones) but a full on fur coat? No thankyou. Doesn't look nice at all. Almost tacky imo!

I believe it's called an opinion, that's probably why

[Cerys]

it seems that fur coats are a symbol of wealth. so those who wear them (regardless of how horrible they look) do so to portray themselves in a more affluent way.

Completely agree with you.

[Johnathan]

Completely agree with you.

I second that!

[Metric1]

gotta have ya furs

[Sharon]

I think Kim looks good in hers and Kanye too but the pink one is trashy. Anyway that wasn't the question, I think everyone's got their own taste and if they want to go for it. Regardless of people buying them they'll always be making fur coats anyway.

[Charz777]

The look isn't really the issue here. You seem some relatively nice-look ones and a lot of totally hideous ones. The issue is clearly animal wellfare. Why would a person wear and animal when faux fur coats can look nice if not better.

But then again, I suppose the same could be said about why eat meat when there is meat substitute :/ But we eat animals all the time without hesitation, so...

Real furs, I say no.

[shiver]

personally i would not wear a fut coat. if i wanted one i would get a USED one rather than a new one which feeds directly into the manufacture of them. not really a fan of the fur industry. but at the same time i'm not here to criticise those who wanna wear it. i eat meat so i think i'd be a hypocrite if i said NO 2 FUR.

[kuzkasate]

I don't see the big deal at all. I have coats with real fur... people are just so used to not having 'cold' winters in the UK, so they don't see the point in having them, yet if you go to countries abroad with really cold winters i.e Russia, if you don't wear fur coats and hats you'll a) get looked at like a complete idiot and b) get ill extremely quickly.

[lawrawrrr]

i don't have a problem with them (they're usually so soft), as I'm hardly going to fall into hypocrisy and wear my leather shoes protesting about fur coats.... but i'd never buy one. Too expensive man, and too many people would judge me and make nasty comments.

I'd love a faux fur coat though, however unpractical they are for Welsh winters ;(