Debunking: Anne Frank Died in Bergen Belsen

[MightyMagician]

Some solid points to consider:

-There is absolutely nothing consistent that proves without a doubt that Anne and her sister died in the concentration camps, especially Bergen Belsen. I've tried, I really have - but there are no photos of Anne or Margot Frank in Bergen Belsen, not even in the barracks. There are no signed documents from the Nazi's that confirm either of them died. No bodies were ever found, despite those who supposedly dumped the bodies wrapped them in identifiable white sheets. No photos of the dead bodies, no videos either.
-In 1945 when Janny Brandes contacted Otto Frank that both Anne and Margot died and that they buried their bodies, Otto Frank made no attempt to try and find their bodies, ever. Not even until he died. The thing is, Janny used white sheets where others were not wrapped in such ways, so it would make sense that during that summer he'd know the exact grave they were buried in, given she was in all 3 camps with them. The only reason Otto Frank wouldn't have wanted a proper burial would be if there was no body to be found.
-Despite being given credible info from Irma Menkel and Janny Brandes, it still took Miep Gies nearly 10 years to have her death on paper.
-The fact that Anne Frank is not seen in any Bergen Belsen photos is evidence she wasn't there for long, and likely got transferred to Theresienstadt in the Czech Republic.
-Auschwitz was a factory of typhus and starvation deaths. Typhus was so rampant in the camp that pesticide had to be used to somewhat control it, but it still caused people to die. If Anne Frank died of typhus, she died in Auschwitz, yet records prove she was sent to Bergen Belsen.
-After the war, the diary of Margot Frank went missing and has never been found - where did it go? The Nazis, nor Otto Frank and any of the helper took it, so who does that leave? Anne and Margot.

Challenge: Find me something solid Anne Frank died in Bergen Belsen, be it a photo, document, or video.

Good luck

[FlyingJesus]

I thought we did this already do you just post nonsense around the internet and forget where you've already been

[MightyMagician]

I thought we did this already do you just post nonsense around the internet and forget where you've already been

You really love attacking me, don't you? Alright: I corrected certain facts, left out a few, added new ones, a general revision. There was no consensus in that thread either, and it came down to why Anne Frank would have left everything behind, to a video documentary I mistakenly cited. Either way, it doesn't mean others can't join in here. Feel free to leave if you want.

[Red]

From survivor testimony. Typhus was also rife in Bergen Belsen when it was liberated. It couldn't cope with the large influx of prisoners sent there due to advancing allies. I've never heard anything about her being buried in a white sheet? She was probably thrown into an unmarked mass grave.

[MightyMagician]

From survivor testimony. Typhus was also rife in Bergen Belsen when it was liberated. It couldn't cope with the large influx of prisoners sent there due to advancing allies. I've never heard anything about her being buried in a white sheet? She was probably thrown into an unmarked mass grave.

Janny was kind of like a guardian for sick children in Bergen Belsen, whom she claimed to have looked after Anne and Margot when they allegedly fell gravely ill, yet she didn't see her die, that's Irma Menkel. Janny probably felt more attached to Anne and Margot and the sheets were meant as a caring gesture.

As for typhus: Even though Auschwitz had delousing chambers, tons of lice would have still been there considering the camp was built over a swamp, and the cold conditions year round would make lots of inmates sick. Anne states herself in her diary she had(s) a weaker immune system then others. Even if it was worse in Bergen Belsen, it was just as bad in Birkenau, where Anne would have most likely gotten it.

[Red]

Hanneli Pick-Gosler also claims she encountered Anne at Bergen Belsen. Irma Menkel said she seen her fall sick with typhus whilst there. Where is this white sheet thing coming from. I looked her up and nothing?

[The Don]

Generally it's in good taste for someone to offer evidence to the contrary when disputing something, not the other way round. Unless you have some evidence (evidence, not illogical and poorly thought-out rebuttals) that Anne Frank didn't die in the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp then it's really a nonissue.

[FlyingJesus]

In 1945 when Janny Brandes contacted Otto Frank that both Anne and Margot died and that they buried their bodies, Otto Frank made no attempt to try and find their bodies, ever. Not even until he died

brb, digging up my daughter's corpse! Not something I'd do either...


-Despite being given credible info from Irma Menkel and Janny Brandes, it still took Miep Gies nearly 10 years to have her death on paper.

So proper notation and fact checking are now reasons NOT to believe?


-Auschwitz was a factory of typhus and starvation deaths. Typhus was so rampant in the camp that pesticide had to be used to somewhat control it, but it still caused people to die. If Anne Frank died of typhus, she died in Auschwitz

Heart disease is the number 1 killer in the US, therefore if I die from cardiovascular troubles I died in America


-After the war, the diary of Margot Frank went missing and has never been found - where did it go? The Nazis, nor Otto Frank and any of the helper took it, so who does that leave? Anne and Margot.

I have no idea where my amazing year 7 story book that I wrote is, doesn't mean I'm currently living in Colombia or something


You really love attacking me, don't you?

No I just like tapping on keys and making words happen, I'm not attacking you at all

[MightyMagician]

Hanneli Pick-Gosler also claims she encountered Anne at Bergen Belsen. Irma Menkel said she seen her fall sick with typhus whilst there. Where is this white sheet thing coming from. I looked her up and nothing?

I'll start here: I'm well aware Anne and Hanneli talked by the fence, I've already debunked it in my older thread (partially), since t doesn't match Irma's testimony. Irma Menkel is the definitive person who allegedly saw Anne die, in her arms. It's explicitly detailed in an interview you can find by googling her. The very notion that Anne got typhus in Bergen Belsen is not credible, since Anne's weak immune system made her just as susceptible to the disease in Auschwitz Birkenau, but people claim it was Bergen Belsen. Whoops - looks like everyone who saw Anne get sick have been lying.

As for a reference for the sheet: I read this long before I made the original thread and is a real pain trying to find it again. The good news is that I can always have the Anne Frank Museum confirm this, which I have already emailed them. 2 other kids, however, were wrapped in the same manner.

Pic: http://tinyurl.com/o7jruyz
Daily Mail Article that confirms Anne was wrapped in blankets to begin with: http://tinyurl.com/oujuc92

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Generally it's in good taste for someone to offer evidence to the contrary when disputing something, not the other way round. Unless you have some evidence (evidence, not illogical and poorly thought-out rebuttals) that Anne Frank didn't die in the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp then it's really a nonissue.

If you want me to dig that hard and find dead bang evidence that she's alive, you need to first tell me who you are and how you know my real name. You claim my rebuttals are nonsense when it's simply common sense, yeah okay man. I'm sure if there's proof she's dead though, you can find it.

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brb, digging up my daughter's corpse! Not something I'd do either...

Soby your logic, proper burial for wife but leave kids in the ground? Wow, that's really cold of both you and him, I guess.

So proper notation and fact checking are now reasons NOT to believe?

Credible info was given to everyone that the Red Cross could have used. If they couldn't make an effort to find the bodies, they still could have signed a death certificate in 1945.

Heart disease is the number 1 killer in the US, therefore if I die from cardiovascular troubles I died in America

You can't catch heart disease now, can you?

I have no idea where my amazing year 7 story book that I wrote is, doesn't mean I'm currently living in Colombia or something

After the war Anne and Margot wanted their diaries to be used as documentation, but with the trauma of the camps, I'd hide my diary too.

No I just like tapping on keys and making words happen, I'm not attacking you at all

You don't need ad-hominem to debate me.

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My replies to FlyingJesus accidentally ended in the quote since IDK how to multi-quote. Can someone fix this for me?

[FlyingJesus]

There is no ad hominem there, I haven't said anything about you. And you're still seemingly trying to claim that anyone with a certain disease can only have it from one place, which is ridiculous

[sex]

shes in my attic alive and well

she stared in AMERICAN HORROR STORY

Edited by e5 (Forum Super Moderator) - Please don't post pointlessly.

[MightyMagician]

There is no ad hominem there, I haven't said anything about you. And you're still seemingly trying to claim that anyone with a certain disease can only have it from one place, which is ridiculous

If I told you that your religious, sexual, and political beliefs were ridiculous, would that not be considered ad-hominem? What you are doing is exactly that, because you can't come up with a creative response other than "that's ridiculous" when you don't know how to intelligently respond. It was extremely likely Anne would have gotten sick in Auschwitz because a year round cold, muddy swamp is practically a breeding ground for lice, even with delousing chambers.

[FlyingJesus]

If I told you that your religious, sexual, and political beliefs were ridiculous, would that not be considered ad-hominem?

Nope

[MightyMagician]

Nope

Wow. It's considered ad-hominem on social media and you say it isn't.

[FlyingJesus]

Saying "this is a bad argument because [insert reason here]" like I've done is not an ad hom. If I'd said "this is wrong because you're tall" that would be an ad hom - an argument based on your personal features rather than your argument. That's not something I've done however, so no, you're completely wrong as usual

[MightyMagician]

Saying "this is a bad argument because [insert reason here]" like I've done is not an ad hom. If I'd said "this is wrong because you're tall" that would be an ad hom - an argument based on your personal features rather than your argument. That's not something I've done however, so no, you're completely wrong as usual

We both know you do this because you don't like me. Seriously though, let's stay on topic.

[FlyingJesus]

I don't know you, so nope. Wrong again and yet another poor attempt at an argument

[Kardan]

I didn't realise that the Nazis were required to photo or video every single person they imprisoned and killed.

[Red]

It baffles me that you can ignore eyewitness testimony and conclude she must have fallen ill at Auschwitz because she wrote in her diary that she had a weakened immune system? (Did she even write this. Page number please?) Yes she became emaciated and her immune system obviously weakened there but do you have any real evidence that she contracted typhus/died (not sure what you believe really) at Auschwitz?

[MightyMagician]

I don't know you, so nope. Wrong again and yet another poor attempt at an argument

I asked nicely to stay on topic - is it really that hard?

[FlyingJesus]

No you didn't, but regardless I was on topic before you started making false claims about me, ignoring genuine points, and changing the subject

[MightyMagician]

I didn't realise that the Nazis were required to photo or video every single person they imprisoned and killed.

Who said they were? They just happened to take lots of photos and I find it pretty odd Anne and Margot are not included.

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No you didn't, but regardless I was on topic before you started making false claims about me, ignoring genuine points, and changing the subject

This is highly offensive. I answered ALL your rebuttals and said what I had to say since you claim every time my points are ridiculous. Stop being a child and debate me or leave, please.

[Empired]

I didn't realise that the Nazis were required to photo or video every single person they imprisoned and killed.
Yeah whilst fighting them for our freedom and democracy in WW2 we also asked them to document every death they caused for future reference. Did you not know that?

I asked nicely to stay on topic - is it really that hard?
Yet you seem just as incapable of staying on topic as well.

Sent from phone

[Phil]

Guys can we keep this on topic please or I will close the thread.

[Empired]

Who said they were? They just happened to take lots of photos and I find it pretty odd Anne and Margot are not included.

Millions of Jews died and photography was still a fairly new concept. The likelihood of them being in pictures is fairly low.

Sent from phone

[lemons]

we read anne franks diary in year 9 it was soooooooooooooo boring lolz! we stopped 1/3 in

[MightyMagician]

Lord, thank you for telling this guy to stop. Now I'm going to finish replying to those I haven't already.

[MightyMagician]

It baffles me that you can ignore eyewitness testimony and conclude she must have fallen ill at Auschwitz because she wrote in her diary that she had a weakened immune system? (Did she even write this. Page number please?) Yes she became emaciated and her immune system obviously weakened there but do you have any real evidence that she contracted typhus/died (not sure what you believe really) at Auschwitz?

If her diary wasn't over 250 pages long I might have looked for the page number. Googling the fact asserts it as true so it doesn't matter. Anne was in Auschwitz during the worst time - the winter, at a swamp, where lice practically breed for a living. If Anne was really sick in Bergen Belsen, she must have already had it when she was in Poland and somehow was not showing symptoms until everyone else was getting sick in Germany (impossible). Red, I'm pretty sure you read my posts in the old thread about the witnesses - they don't match Hanneli's story of Anne telling her at the fence she was giving up. It's just common sense that the conditions at Birkenau put her at more risk then Bergen Belsen. The same goes for emaciation - her mom died shortly after Anne went on the train to Bergen Belsen - I find it hard to believe her mom died of starvation sooner than Anne or Margot since it would have been pretty easy for either of them to die of emaciation onboard the train. The fact they both made it to Bergen Belsen alive means Typhus nor starvation was the issue.

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Millions of Jews died and photography was still a fairly new concept. The likelihood of them being in pictures is fairly low.

Sent from phone

I guess that goes the same for Elie Wiesel, who identified himself in a Buchenwald barracks photo?

[Kardan]

Who said they were? They just happened to take lots of photos and I find it pretty odd Anne and Margot are not included.

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This is highly offensive. I answered ALL your rebuttals and said what I had to say since you claim every time my points are ridiculous. Stop being a child and debate me or leave, please.

So you find it strange that in all the photos one single person is not in any of them - so you did expect them to photograph every single person?

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If you genuinely believe your views are true, why are you wasting your time trying to convince young adults on a Habbo forum rather than trying to show the 'truth' to the real world.

[MightyMagician]

So you find it strange that in all the photos one single person is not in any of them - so you did expect them to photograph every single person?

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If you genuinely believe your views are true, why are you wasting your time trying to convince young adults on a Habbo forum rather than trying to show the 'truth' to the real world.

Not as individuals, but people close to Anne might recognize her. Plus I'm talking about her sister, Margot, as well. Oh and I'm terrified of public speaking, if you can understand that.

[FlyingJesus]

I answered ALL your rebuttals and said what I had to say

No you 100% did not, you made half-hearted statements that didn't even address the points at hand and then claimed that I was using ad hominems.


since you claim every time my points are ridiculous.

Literally the only time I have said anything is ridiculous is when you claimed that if an area has a lot of a certain disease, anyone with that disease must have been there... which is ridiculous. You did the same with The Don pretending he'd called your post nonsense despite never having used the word at all (although ironically, I did). Try not making things up in order to pretend people are attacking you when they're actually just pointing out the problems with your theories. The only one making things personal here is you, and the one who sent this off track in the first place was you


Stop being a child and debate me or leave, please.

I have done, you didn't respond properly and then started lying about my intentions

[MightyMagician]

No you 100% did not, you made half-hearted statements that didn't even address the points at hand and then claimed that I was using ad hominems.



Literally the only time I have said anything is ridiculous is when you claimed that if an area has a lot of a certain disease, anyone with that disease must have been there... which is ridiculous. You did the same with The Don pretending he'd called your post nonsense despite never having used the word at all (although ironically, I did). Try not making things up in order to pretend people are attacking you when they're actually just pointing out the problems with your theories. The only one making things personal here is you, and the one who sent this off track in the first place was you



I have done, you didn't respond properly and then started lying about my intentions

Good God man! I already told you to drop this and stay on topic, and a mod has already agreed. Just stick to what's relevant to the OP and continue there.

Edited by mdport. (Forum Super Moderator): Please leave moderating to the moderators!

[FlyingJesus]

Fantastic, I just did that and again you've ignored it - getting a disease that is prevalent in a certain place does not mean you must have been there

Although it would be nice to have an apology for your lies

[Kyle]

Good God man! I already told you to drop this and stay on topic, and a mod has already agreed. Just stick to what's relevant to the OP and continue there.
Recognise that there were no fallacies in his post and respond to the facts rather than the way in which they were presented. Also don't cite the diary as a source of you have neither read it nor know where the person who did read it got their ideas from in the first place :p

Their mother died of starvation because she surrendered what little nutrition she had to keep her children alive, they got on a train and died at the camp.

[GommeInc]

I can't help but think this is one of those debates which is purely one-sided where any counter-arguments goes in one ear and out the other. How can this possibly be a debate if the person wanting it just ignores everything everyone has to say? This just seems like the ramblings of an obsessive individual bent on their conspiracy theories based on something that is dead and buried. I swear this is the third time this has appeared and it goes no where :/

[Empired]

I guess that goes the same for Elie Wiesel, who identified himself in a Buchenwald barracks photo?

Shock! One person had a photograph taken of them, therefore they all must have done! Of course! Why did I not think like that before?

But seriously, your argument is flawed. One person cannot be representative of millions of people. Using one single example to come to conclusions about millions of people will not get you far.
Sent from phone

[Sian]

I didn't know googling things made them absolute fact. The Internet is full of lies. And a 250 page book is tiny.

I do believe they died at belsen. Even with a weak immune system they could have survived until then.

[Firehorse]

Some solid points to consider:

-There is absolutely nothing consistent that proves without a doubt that Anne and her sister died in the concentration camps, especially Bergen Belsen. I've tried, I really have - but there are no photos of Anne or Margot Frank in Bergen Belsen, not even in the barracks. There are no signed documents from the Nazi's that confirm either of them died. No bodies were ever found, despite those who supposedly dumped the bodies wrapped them in identifiable white sheets. No photos of the dead bodies, no videos either.
-In 1945 when Janny Brandes contacted Otto Frank that both Anne and Margot died and that they buried their bodies, Otto Frank made no attempt to try and find their bodies, ever. Not even until he died. The thing is, Janny used white sheets where others were not wrapped in such ways, so it would make sense that during that summer he'd know the exact grave they were buried in, given she was in all 3 camps with them. The only reason Otto Frank wouldn't have wanted a proper burial would be if there was no body to be found.
-Despite being given credible info from Irma Menkel and Janny Brandes, it still took Miep Gies nearly 10 years to have her death on paper.
-The fact that Anne Frank is not seen in any Bergen Belsen photos is evidence she wasn't there for long, and likely got transferred to Theresienstadt in the Czech Republic.
-Auschwitz was a factory of typhus and starvation deaths. Typhus was so rampant in the camp that pesticide had to be used to somewhat control it, but it still caused people to die. If Anne Frank died of typhus, she died in Auschwitz, yet records prove she was sent to Bergen Belsen.
-After the war, the diary of Margot Frank went missing and has never been found - where did it go? The Nazis, nor Otto Frank and any of the helper took it, so who does that leave? Anne and Margot.

Challenge: Find me something solid Anne Frank died in Bergen Belsen, be it a photo, document, or video.

Good luck

I don't get your obsession with trying to disprove various Jews were killed by the Nazis or how they were killed.

You want photos? Here are your ******* photos (Graphic content): http://www.scrapbookpages.com/BergenBelsen/BergenBelsen05B.html

From the same page:


the majority of the deaths were from typhus.

Wikipedia also states up to 35,000 people died from Typhus in the camp. Why do you state she had to be in Auschwitz to have died of Typhus? What is your source?

Why don't you take a visit to these camps, especially Auschwitz, before you start trying to rewrite history.

Thread edited by OddKrAtNo (Trialist Forum Moderator): Please remember to use badspoilers when necessary, thanks.

[MightyMagician]

Recognise that there were no fallacies in his post and respond to the facts rather than the way in which they were presented. Also don't cite the diary as a source of you have neither read it nor know where the person who did read it got their ideas from in the first place :p

Their mother died of starvation because she surrendered what little nutrition she had to keep her children alive, they got on a train and died at the camp.

This is long overdue but I'm going to post anyways. Truthfully, I responded to FlyingJesus 2 pages ago, but since my multi-quote kills suck, my replies were stuck inside a single post quote that was included in my reply to multiple posters who had previously replied. I edited the post to point out my error and have a mod fix it, but nobody did.

Regarding Edith Frank: The amount of food given still would not have been enough to feed 2 kids knowing that the average prisoner could have been living on a 400 calorie diet minimum. This would mean that Anne and Margot could have been living on a 600 calorie diet at minimum, enough to cause starvation.

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Shock! One person had a photograph taken of them, therefore they all must have done! Of course! Why did I not think like that before?

But seriously, your argument is flawed. One person cannot be representative of millions of people. Using one single example to come to conclusions about millions of people will not get you far.
Sent from phone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elie_Wiesel#/media/File:Buchenwald_Slave_Laborers_Liberation.jpg

Elie Wiesel used to photo of several Buchenwald inmates to point himself out. In similar fashion, photos of Bergen Belsen barracks are an easy find on Google. None of those seem to have Anne or Margot there.

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I didn't know googling things made them absolute fact. The Internet is full of lies. And a 250 page book is tiny.

I do believe they died at belsen. Even with a weak immune system they could have survived until then.

But being at Birkenau raised the chances of typhus, which I addressed above.

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I don't get your obsession with trying to disprove various Jews were killed by the Nazis or how they were killed.

You want photos? Here are your ******* photos (Graphic content): http://www.scrapbookpages.com/BergenBelsen/BergenBelsen05B.html


From the same page:



Wikipedia also states up to 35,000 people died from Typhus in the camp. Why do you state she had to be in Auschwitz to have died of Typhus? What is your source?

Why don't you take a visit to these camps, especially Auschwitz, before you start trying to rewrite history.

Thread edited by OddKrAtNo (Trialist Forum Moderator): Please remember to use badspoilers when necessary, thanks.
I asked for photos of 2 people, and you gave me a single photo of multiple unrelated people. Lots of people survived Bergen Belsen, including kids, like Hanneli Goslar. I simply stated Anne and Margot were likely sent to Theresienstadt. Please don't accuse me of being ignorant. Thank you.

[MightyMagician]

Whoops. Forgot the link given to me had several photos. Doesn't matter though.

[MightyMagician]

HUGE UPDATE: Dennis Tate, expert on reincarnation and the founding supporter of Barbro Karlen has approved of my Original Post in the Barbro Karlen group, citing well research on Anne Frank! This is a huge milestone in getting my side of the story out there. For the win! :D

[Kardan]

HUGE UPDATE: Dennis Tate, expert on reincarnation and the founding supporter of Barbro Karlen has approved of my Original Post in the Barbro Karlen group, citing well research on Anne Frank! This is a huge milestone in getting my side of the story out there. For the win! :D

Says it all really.

[lemons]

http://i.imgur.com/ZmS93xa.png

Edited by OddKrAtNo (Trialist Forum Moderator): Please don't post pointlessly, thanks!

[The Don]

Says it all really.

As an expert on palm reading I find your comment offensive.

[Sharon]

i can't give you a serious reply like everyone else can as my GCSE history knowledge just doesn't go that far

you just really seem like a nut job that is a little delusional, quite literally every point you make is flawed

[Matt]

~Thread closed