EU Referendum Megathread (Brexit)

[AgnesIO]

We would categorically not benefit anywhere near like we do now from EU science funding. Don't even bother arguing that from your little table.

[-:Undertaker:-]

We would categorically not benefit anywhere near like we do now from EU science funding. Don't even bother arguing that from your little table.

Where does EU funding come from?

[AgnesIO]

Where does EU funding come from?

Wherever it comes from, that doesn't mean science will receive the same funding. You Leave supporters can't bang on about how we can put it towards out NHS, new immigration controls, science, less tax for this that and the other - it's ridiculous... you can save money in some places, not everywhere...

[abc]

Some real facts:
EU Migrants put in more money in to our country through taxes in comparison to what they use in benefits, NHS etc. Hence EU Migrants help our country.
By leaving the EU, we may join the EU single market for which we would have to allow freedom of movement, so by leaving do not assume you are automatically blocking people from EU coming here. In that case we will leave the EU, still allow freedom of movement but have no say in EU rules which will affect us .... so those voting to leave will be voting to reduce our influence. Why the hell would anyone do that? We know why Boris wants to but why would a sane citizen want that?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Wherever it comes from, that doesn't mean science will receive the same funding. You Leave supporters can't bang on about how we can put it towards out NHS, new immigration controls, science, less tax for this that and the other - it's ridiculous... you can save money in some places, not everywhere...

Well hang on, isn't that the point in this whole discussion. If you do not like what a government is doing or how it is spending your money you pay in taxes, then every five years you go to the ballot box and make your opinion heard. That's known as parliamentary democracy. With the European Union you do not have that power to either reward those in power or to hold them accountable. Like, doesn't the principle of democracy matter to you!?

And while it doesn't mean science will receive the same funding (why not?) it also doesn't mean that science won't receive more funding.


Some real facts:
EU Migrants put in more money in to our country through taxes in comparison to what they use in benefits, NHS etc. Hence EU Migrants help our country.
By leaving the EU, we may join the EU single market for which we would have to allow freedom of movement, so by leaving do not assume you are automatically blocking people from EU coming here. In that case we will leave the EU, still allow freedom of movement but have no say in EU rules which will affect us .... so those voting to leave will be voting to reduce our influence. Why the hell would anyone do that? We know why Boris wants to but why would a sane citizen want that?

What use is having a "say" (of which no examples can ever be given) in the EU in regards to immigration when we forbidden from controlling it?

You're basically telling us "stay in to have a say in order to be forbidden from having control" and it doesn't wash pal.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtEwYoZArXw


SMACKDOWN. Immigration needs to be controlled, the vast majority want it. EU rules forbidding control are an affront to our democracy & elections.

[abc]

Well hang on, isn't that the point in this whole discussion. If you do not like what a government is doing or how it is spending your money you pay in taxes, then every five years you go to the ballot box and make your opinion heard. That's known as parliamentary democracy. With the European Union you do not have that power to either reward those in power or to hold them accountable. Like, doesn't the principle of democracy matter to you!?

And while it doesn't mean science will receive the same funding (why not?) it also doesn't mean that science won't receive more funding.



What use is having a "say" (of which no examples can ever be given) in the EU in regards to immigration when we forbidden from controlling it?

You're basically telling us "stay in to have a say in order to be forbidden from having control" and it doesn't wash pal.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtEwYoZArXw


SMACKDOWN. Immigration needs to be controlled, the vast majority want it. EU rules forbidding control are an affront to our democracy & elections.

Yet you are deluded and fail to see we will still have freedom of movement if we leave the EU. It is almost certain we will join the single market and thus have to allow freedom of movement.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Yet you are deluded and fail to see we will still have freedom of movement if we leave the EU. It is almost certain we will join the single market and thus have to allow freedom of movement.

It was I who suggested that principled remainers who genuinely do not want more powers to be transferred to the Eurropean Union should vote Leave and advocate the EEA as a post-Brexit solution which would mainly keep the status quo with many powers back. Have you now come around to this suggestion?

That doesn't mean I agree with you on the EEA after we have left. But again, that is something to be decided as a country after we've activated Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty and begin proceedings to leave. It could well be that we are able to change the FoM aspect of the EEA given our size and influence, or it could be that the options of both the EEA (as it is currently constituted in Norway form) and EFTA are put forward in a national referendum. Either of these though are much better than continued membership of the EU given the constant push for ever closer union. My ultimate concern before immigration, regulation or anything is national sovereignty and the supremacy of our courts being restored.

[AgnesIO]

Well hang on, isn't that the point in this whole discussion. If you do not like what a government is doing or how it is spending your money you pay in taxes, then every five years you go to the ballot box and make your opinion heard. That's known as parliamentary democracy. With the European Union you do not have that power to either reward those in power or to hold them accountable. Like, doesn't the principle of democracy matter to you!?


I don't think that was what I was discussing? :S

[-:Undertaker:-]

I don't think that was what I was discussing? :S

Oh but you'll have to. The question is who governs Britain: the unelected institutions of the European Union or the elected British Parliament?

You've made the point over science funding that a government could (again, purely guesswork on your part) lower funding for science. That's true. But it is also true that it could raise spending on science funding given the extra windfall we'll have from our former EU membership fees. The point however isn't whether Brexit would bring about the result you would want in policy, but that policy - good or bad - is once again made by our elected parliament. If you do not like the actions of a government whether it is over science funding, immigration, the NHS, the death penalty or whatever then you ought to be able to throw them out at the ballot box. With the EU you cannot.

And that's the entire principle of whether we are in or out. I've said countless times before if the EU did everything I wanted I would still want out because I believe in the principle of national independence, parliamentary sovereignty and democracy. I'd suffer a 100 years of Labour government in return for those values. Men my age and yours went over the trenches only 70 years ago into bulletfire for those values, never forget that.

[AgnesIO]

Oh but you'll have to. The question is who governs Britain: the unelected institutions of the European Union or the elected British Parliament?

You've made the point over science funding that a government could (again, purely guesswork on your part) lower funding for science. That's true. But it is also true that it could raise spending on science funding given the extra windfall we'll have from our former EU membership fees. The point however isn't whether Brexit would bring about the result you would want in policy, but that policy - good or bad - is once again made by our elected parliament. If you do not like the actions of a government whether it is over science funding, immigration, the NHS, the death penalty or whatever then you ought to be able to throw them out at the ballot box. With the EU you cannot.

And that's the entire principle of whether we are in or out. I've said countless times before if the EU did everything I wanted I would still want out because I believe in the principle of national independence, parliamentary sovereignty and democracy. I'd suffer a 100 years of Labour government in return for those values. Men my age and yours went over the trenches only 70 years ago into bulletfire for those values, never forget that.

Having spent the last week with some of Britain's best academics in various fields of science, it seems fairly conclusive that they firmly believe we would lose out (in science funding) if we leave the EU. Now, who should I listen to? A scaremongering kipper, or people highly educated in their field? Think I'll listen to them.

I should note, some of them were still anti-EU; but the fact remains they STILL accepted the high chance of losing out in terms of science funding if we lose.

My original post was merely highlighting that your image was wrong. Simple. I never intended to get into the debate of whether they should make decisions on our behalf; simply that what you posted was inaccurate. And I am right.

[Lucy]

I was reading today that the latest polls indicating a leave vote, however it has swapped and changed so many times. I have also recently registered to vote from overseas as well, most of my UK friends here didn't realise they could vote and almost all of them want to vote leave. There is so much rubbish being spread that there has been barely any clear cut information as to the benefits and negatives of it all, but oh well.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Having spent the last week with some of Britain's best academics in various fields of science, it seems fairly conclusive that they firmly believe we would lose out (in science funding) if we leave the EU. Now, who should I listen to? A scaremongering kipper, or people highly educated in their field? Think I'll listen to them.

Anecdotal evidence doesn't fly. I spend time with a lot of working class people who are all saying they're going to vote Leave, does that therefore automatically mean a Leave vote would be beneficial for people on lower incomes? No of course not. And don't place your faith in experts as it was experts who roundly told the country only a decade ago that not joining the Euro would damage our economy, our place in the world and the rest.

You say they firmly "believe" they would lose out on funding, but belief isn't an academic quality. Where's their evidence? Did you not ask?


I should note, some of them were still anti-EU; but the fact remains they STILL accepted the high chance of losing out in terms of science funding if we lose.

Again did you ask them to explain how exactly they came to this conclusion when....

a) the UK pays more into the EU than it gets out therefore would have a surplus to spend on leaving
b) non-EU Norway fully participates in joint-European scientific research and programmes

A bit of critical thinking wouldn't go amiss.


My original post was merely highlighting that your image was wrong. Simple. I never intended to get into the debate of whether they should make decisions on our behalf; simply that what you posted was inaccurate. And I am right.

That is what you are de facto arguing. You're arguing that because a government *could* (not that it would) reduce science funding therefore you wish to vote Remain to place a roadblock in the way of an elected government potentially doing so. That's very undemocratic my friend.

[The Don]

And don't place your faith in experts as it was experts who roundly told the country only a decade ago that not joining the Euro would damage our economy, our place in the world and the rest.

Scientists also used to think the sun orbited the earth, according to Dan logic anything scientists say now is wrong. Different people being wrong in the past on different matters is not an argument in itself. Evidence to the contrary of what they say is a valid argument, simply spouting "well dey there wus wrong in the past so they is wrong now!!" is moronic.

Thankfully they have good reason for their assumptions:


A case study of Switzerland as a model for UK science outside the EU

Fortunately, this discussion is not purely hypothetical, but rather based largely on the precedent of Switzerland’s relationship with the EU science programme. Given Switzerland’s high competence in science, geographical location in Europe, non-EU status and political difficulties with issues of EU immigration – Switzerland is a helpful model for the UK’s re-negotiation of science programme membership following a Brexit:

Synopsis of the Swiss-EU science story
1. Switzerland is not a member of the EU but since 1992 has obtained full access to Framework Programmes, as part of agreements that also guarantee free movement of persons, contributing to the FP budget alongside other EU members.
2. In 2014, a popular vote to limit mass migration was passed by a margin of 50.3 to 49.7%
3. The Swiss government was then unable to commit to ratification of a free movement accord with Croatia.
4. Switzerland was suspended from access to Horizon 2020.
5. The Swiss government was forced to replicate at national level a temporary programme to replace immediate access to the ERC programme and subsequently negotiated limited access to H2020, with much reduced access to programmes, exclusion from the new SME Instrument and loss of ability to coordinate collaborative research within H2020. This is reliant on continued freedom of movement. Switzerland also funds Swiss participants in EU collaborative programmes directly at national level, requiring parallel domestic administration and an agreement to accept all funding decisions made in Brussels, effectively losing control of its national science budget.
6. The Swiss were also not included on Erasmus+. They chose to ensure continuation of the scheme by paying nationally both for students leaving and for those coming in (i.e. paying double what they would as a member of the international programme).
7. Negotiated access to H2020 will end in 2016, when Switzerland must either ratify the Croatia treaty or lose access to H2020 plus risk its bilateral trade agreements with the EU.
8. Switzerland must contribute to H2020 based on GDP and population and has no role in developing funding topics.

This case study of Switzerland represents an instructive set of circumstances for the UK with regard to Horizon 2020 access post-Brexit. Switzerland’s current participation is dependent on free movement. Should the UK leave the EU and restrict freedom of movement, it will have no access to Horizon 2020 beyond third country status (Afghanistan, Argentina etc.). However, as detailed further on, the sheer size of the UK causes problems for re-joining the EU programme after rejecting the EU.
Source: http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2015/12/05/debunking-the-myths-about-british-science-after-an-eu-exit/

[lemons]

hey is the itv thing from last night worth watching any drama or shocking moments such as crazy audience members

[-:Undertaker:-]

Hmmm I don't remember talking about Switzerland in relation to science funding. I spoke about non-EU Norway, which participates fully.


hey is the itv thing from last night worth watching any drama or shocking moments such as crazy audience members

I haven't watched but there wasn't much of a buzz from it.

Only interesting part I found on Twitter were these audience reaction graphs, mirroring the polling which is showing undecideds/swing now moving towards Leave. That's surprised me given in referendums and even elections swing voters *tend* to back the status quo option rather than a change.

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[AgnesIO]

Anecdotal evidence doesn't fly. I spend time with a lot of working class people who are all saying they're going to vote Leave, does that therefore automatically mean a Leave vote would be beneficial for people on lower incomes? No of course not. And don't place your faith in experts as it was experts who roundly told the country only a decade ago that not joining the Euro would damage our economy, our place in the world and the rest.

You say they firmly "believe" they would lose out on funding, but belief isn't an academic quality. Where's their evidence? Did you not ask?



Again did you ask them to explain how exactly they came to this conclusion when....

a) the UK pays more into the EU than it gets out therefore would have a surplus to spend on leaving
b) non-EU Norway fully participates in joint-European scientific research and programmes

A bit of critical thinking wouldn't go amiss.



That is what you are de facto arguing. You're arguing that because a government *could* (not that it would) reduce science funding therefore you wish to vote Remain to place a roadblock in the way of an elected government potentially doing so. That's very undemocratic my friend.

Not bothering to reply to most of this, as you've just come back to my original point. This surplus that you keep banging on about cannot lead to funding absolutely everything in Britain. It isn't that much. It never was that much. It never will be that much.

Sure it might help the NHS, won't go much further than that.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Not bothering to reply to most of this, as you've just come back to my original point. This surplus that you keep banging on about cannot lead to funding absolutely everything in Britain. It isn't that much. It never was that much. It never will be that much.

Sure it might help the NHS, won't go much further than that.

Who said it would fund everything? Certainly not me. No budget that currently receives so-called "EU money" would need to be cut however. Infact, if the extra were divided up each budget would receive a pretty big boost.

If you hand £350 to somebody and they give you £200 back but spend/decide how you can spend the extra £150 that'd be a rotten deal.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Just watched the two-hour ITV Debate.

Leave team was Boris Johnson (Conservative), Gisela Stuart (Labour) & Andrea Leadsom (Conservative).

Remain team was Nicola Sturgeon (SNP), Angela Eagle (Labour) & Amber Rudd (Conservative).

741012760465711108

741000140840939520

Leavers again with this debate performing better with undecided voters and coming out top in the performance polling.

Also today I got some placards delivered and got inventive (my DT skills came in handy finally) with a plank of wood I had and a mini-Union flag.

http://www.ezimba.com/work/160610C/ezimba13810229890000.png

And good old Dennis Skinner (Labour MP) has come out today in support of Leave along with John Mann MP (Labour) just now.

741000472304160769

[lemons]

I must say that the leave campaign broadcast I saw on ITV today (focussed on the NHS) was the biggest load of crap I've ever seen... even if I supported the leave campaign I'd be embarrassed by it!

the whole ref is so boring now but I have learnt lots about the EU in the past few months!

[Lucy]

I find it amusing that Sturgeon and the SNP are pushing for a remain campaign, they didn't even want to be part of the UK.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I find it amusing that Sturgeon and the SNP are pushing for a remain campaign, they didn't even want to be part of the UK.

Quite bizzare really isn't it.

She wants independence from Westminster (elected) which is granting more powers to the Scottish Parliament over the years whilst wanting to join the EU which would mean them having to join the Euro currency and which means continuous powers going from Scotland to Brussels (unelected).

There was a great moment in the debate last night where Boris used Sturgeon's own quote on scaremongering against her after she'd done just that.

[The Don]

I find it amusing that Sturgeon and the SNP are pushing for a remain campaign, they didn't even want to be part of the UK.

I find it amusing that the same people who argued Scotland must remain part of the UK as we're stronger together are now arguing we're stronger apart from the EU.

[-:Undertaker:-]

There's some really interesting and encouraging rumours going around about postal votes so far received.

Meanwhile....

741310783821340672

Certainly my experience talking to people who absolutely loathe the Tories.

[takeapicture]

quite certain we'll stay in the EU.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Downing Street are now in panic mode and intend to go even more negative with personal attacks on Boris Johnson, the Telegraph can reveal.

They're losing the actual argument so they're turning to character assassination. It's all they've got left after the OTT scare stories flopped.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/10/eu-referendum-panicked-remain-camp-plans-to-take-out-boris-as-po/


EU referendum: 'Panicked' Remain camp plans to 'take out Boris' as polls swing in Brexit campaign's favour

https://i1.wp.com/www.pressandjournal.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/06/EU-debate.jpg?resize=480%2C310
The Leave campaign and Boris Johnson have done well in the polling following the TV Debates


Downing Street is “panicked” over the EU referendum amid growing internal signs that support for the Leave campaign is surging.

Private data and internal polling which shows that after two weeks of building momentum there have been huge swings to the Brexit campaign has prompted growing alarm in the Remain camp, sources have said.

It has led to a marked change in strategy, with the campaign to keep Britain in the EU now orchestrating a series of highly personal attacks on Boris Johnson, one of the leaders of the Leave campaign.

David Cameron’s team has adopted a “take out Boris strategy” by allowing Tory Cabinet minister to claim he only backed a Brexit in order to further his ambition to be Prime Minister and associating him with Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader.

On Friday, the Remain campaign released a poster featuring a mock-up of Mr Johnson, Michael Gove, the Tory Justice Secretary and Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, around a casino table rolling a dice.

The poster slogan reads: “Don’t let them gamble with your future.”

Sources close to Mr Johnson have said that senior Tories in the Remain campaign are resorting to “playground jibes” in a sign that “they are rattled, have no discipline, no ideas and no hope”.

[The Don]

Tory Brexit MP Sarah Wollaston switches sides to Remain over untrue '£350m a week' claim

http://i4.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article3851385.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/Tory-MP-Sarah-Wollaston-arriving-Preston-Crown-Court.jpg


Tory MP Dr Sarah Wollaston has abandoned the Vote Leave campaign and called for Britain to remain in the EU over fears for the NHS.

Dr Wollaston, who chairs the Health Select Committee, has quit the official Brexit campaign over their continued claims that Britain sends £350m a week to the EU, which could be spent on the NHS.

She said the claim is "untrue" and did not feel comfortable being part of the campaign.

Boris Johnson has been travelling the country on a battle bus with the claim emblazoned on its side for the past month.

But both the UK Statistics Authority and the cross-party Treasury Select Committee said it was misleading.

The Totness MP, who is a GP, said it was more likely there would be an "economic shock" and a "Brexit penalty" for the NHS.

Last month she refused to hand out campaign literature featuring the claim, saying Vote Leave were "treating the public like fools."

David Cameron is expected to hail the defection as a major success for the a Remain campaign.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tory-brexit-mp-sarah-wollaston-8145752

I'm sure you all will have seen the lie plastered around the forum in -:Undertaker:-;'s old signature. Speaks volumes about the leave sides campaign that one of their main vocal points has been proven to be a complete lie.

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Downing Street are now in panic mode and intend to go even more negative with personal attacks on Boris Johnson, the Telegraph can reveal.

They're losing the actual argument so they're turning to character assassination. It's all they've got left after the OTT scare stories flopped.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/10/eu-referendum-panicked-remain-camp-plans-to-take-out-boris-as-po/


EU referendum: 'Panicked' Remain camp plans to 'take out Boris' as polls swing in Brexit campaign's favour

https://i1.wp.com/www.pressandjournal.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/06/EU-debate.jpg?resize=480%2C310
The Leave campaign and Boris Johnson have done well in the polling following the TV Debates

How is it a character assassination? They are the central leaders in the leave campaign hence why they are pictured together. I think it's a brilliant advert and shows how naive the leave side is, none of them seem to know what we're going to do if we leave, a literal gamble.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I wonder what job or cabinet position Sarah Wollaston MP has been promised by Cameron and Osborne in return for switching?

Or maybe she really switched because MPs are being threatened by the party whips. Oh, you didn't know? Remain are up to all sorts of dirty tricks.

http://order-order.com/2016/06/09/whips-pressuring-leave-mps-to-defect/


Guido is getting reports that whips are calling up moderate Leave MPs and putting pressure on them to defect to Remain. A number of Tory backbenchers say they have been contacted by whips with overtures such as “you don’t want to be associated with Farage’s view of Britain”. A senior Tory tells Guido to expect a defection from a long-term “sceptic” to Remain tonight…

Veiled threats of the lowest order. Kind of like Labour's John Cryer MP who was threatened with the sack if he didn't back Remain.

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[scottish]

Isn't that just another day in politics? :S nothing special.

[The Don]

I wonder what job or cabinet position Sarah Wollaston MP has been promised in return for switching?

Or maybe she really switched because MPs are being threatened by the party whips. Oh, you didn't know? Remain are up to all sorts of dirty tricks.

http://order-order.com/2016/06/09/whips-pressuring-leave-mps-to-defect/



Kind of like Labour's John Cryer MP who was threatened with the sack if he didn't back Remain.

741378764299501569

Perhaps you should listen to what she said herself rather than conjuring up conspiracies

http://cdn.thedailybeast.com/content/dailybeast/articles/2016/02/17/under-donald-trump-s-hair-a-tin-foil-hat/jcr:content/image.img.2000.jpg/1455756633528.cached.jpg

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Using reports about labour whips as evidence for a conservative mp switching sides? lmao try harder Dan, if the tory party are threatening their mp's they are doing a bad job of it considering the leave campaign is full of them.

[-:Undertaker:-]

How is it a character assassination? They are the central leaders in the leave campaign hence why they are pictured together. I think it's a brilliant advert and shows how naive the leave side is, none of them seem to know what we're going to do if we leave, a literal gamble.

Because it's a character assassination. They're playing the man and not the ball.

If you watched the ITV Debate you'd have noticed how there were constant snide attacks on Boris from the Remain side whereas he just (sensibly) batted them off and stuck to the topic itself. The Remain side are rattled because despite the wild predictions of World War III, a Great Depression and waves of locusts: it hasn't worked. Downing Street sources thought they would be heading for a 1975-style victory of 70:30 proportions but it hasn't worked out that way. So now it's the last roll of the dice by turning it into gutter style slurs on Boris Johnson. It's really desperate stuff and demeans the entire argument imo.

I'm glad though they're going down this route because it just shows desperation with 13 days to go. I think a lot of people will see through it.

[lemons]

Today I received a leave leaflet in the post and on the back it said something along the lines of

" think of it this way, imagine if the question on june 23 was 'Should we join the EU?' "

to be honest in its current form I'd vote no!

interesting perspective

[-:Undertaker:-]

Today I received a leave leaflet in the post and on the back it said something along the lines of

" think of it this way, imagine if the question on june 23 was 'Should we join the EU?' "

to be honest in its current form I'd vote no!

interesting perspective

Indeed.

The polling in Norway for example has them 70%+ against joining the EU with only 15% odd wanting to join. I guess life isn't too bad outside as Remain claim.

[The Don]

Because it's a character assassination. They're playing the man and not the ball.

If you watched the ITV Debate you'd have noticed how there were constant snide attacks on Boris from the Remain side whereas he just (sensibly) batted them off and stuck to the topic itself. The Remain side are rattled because despite the wild predictions of World War III, a Great Depression and waves of locusts: it hasn't worked.

I'm glad though they're going down this route because it just shows desperation with 13 days to go. I think a lot of people will see through it.

The poster reads "don't let them gamble with your future", it doesn't attack the character of any of the individuals pictured on it. You haven't got the faintest clue what's going to happen in the result of a leave vote, nor does anyone. Leaving is a gamble, the poster is accurate.

Shall we talk about the misinformation the leave side has been spreading with the 350m figure? I think picturing bojo throwing some dice is the least of the publics concern when they're being told lies.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The poster reads "don't let them gamble with your future", it doesn't attack the character of any of the individuals pictured on it. You haven't got the faintest clue what's going to happen in the result of a leave vote, nor does anyone. Leaving is a gamble, the poster is accurate.

Shall we talk about the misinformation the leave side has been spreading with the 350m figure? I think picturing bojo throwing some dice is the least of the publics concern when they're being told lies.

Of course it's a character attack. You're turning it into the personalities rather than the argument itself and people can see through it.

I could just as easily make a poster with Tony Blair, Nick Clegg and Peter Mandelson rolling a dice and claim the same. I'd rather argue the actual case though.

[The Don]

Today I received a leave leaflet in the post and on the back it said something along the lines of

" think of it this way, imagine if the question on june 23 was 'Should we join the EU?' "

to be honest in its current form I'd vote no!

interesting perspective

It is, but then you have to remember that things here would be way different now if we were never part of the EU so it's flawed to look at it from that perspective. We've got the worlds 5th largest economy through having been part of the EU (and it's predecessors) for the past 50 years, who knows what Britain would look like had we never joined.

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Of course it's a character attack. You're turning it into the personalities rather than the argument itself and people can see through it.

I could just as easily make a poster with Tony Blair, Nick Clegg and Peter Mandelson rolling a dice and claim the same. I'd rather argue the actual case though.

Which part mentions their personalities?

[-:Undertaker:-]

It is, but then you have to remember that things here would be way different now if we were never part of the EU so it's flawed to look at it from that perspective. We've got the worlds 5th largest economy through having been part of the EU (and it's predecessors) for the past 50 years, who knows what Britain would look like had we never joined.

Ohhh we got to be a developed country and Great Power thanks to joining the EU in 1973? There I was thinking we'd been the world's top power for the first half of the 20th century and retaining our spot at the top thanks to our global free market outlook coupled with 1980s economic reforms.

Nothing to do with good educational levels, low corruption, the City of London and being good at business. It was due to the EU lol.


Which part mentions their personalities?

You can't see that poster is a personality attack poster?

It reminds me of the famous Conservative attack poster on Tony Blair in 1997.... which went down like a lead balloon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1355000/images/_1359332_devileyes_pa150.jpg

Policy not personality please.

[The Don]

Ohhh we got to be a developed country and Great Power thanks to joining the EU in 1973? There I was thinking we'd been the world's top power for the first half of the 20th century and retaining our spot at the top thanks to our global free market outlook coupled with 1980s economic reforms.

Nothing to do with good educational levels, low corruption, the City of London and being good at business. It was due to the EU lol.

Not what I said. You know very well that WW2 crippled us and stripped us of the worlds top power, stop pretending we've still got the empire.

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You can't even answer what a Britain after a leave vote will look like in the future, don't pretend you know what Britain would look like in an alternative history where the past 50-60 years were different.

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You can't see that poster is a personality attack poster?

It reminds me of the famous Conservative attack poster on Tony Blair in 1997.... which went down like a lead balloon.

Policy not personality please.

Dodging questions like a politician. I'll ask once again, which part of the poster references their personality?

The Tony Blair poster refers to him as a danger which is actually a character attack, this poster doesn't attack their personality but their argument (which is they have no plans for after a brexit). Stop pretending like they're some sort of victim when you can't even point out which part of the poster is an attack on their character.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Not what I said. You know very well that WW2 crippled us and stripped us of the worlds top power, stop pretending we've still got the empire.

We've never lost Great Power status.

This country does well because we're well educated, low levels of corruption and we work hard and make/provide good products/services.

Not because we're part of a failing organisation that only came into its modern form in 1992 lol.


You can't even answer what a Britain after a leave vote will look like in the future, don't pretend you know what Britain would look like in an alternative history where the past 50-60 years were different.

Please go back and read what I have written on EEA membership, EFTA membership or a UK-EU FTA Deal.

It's been discussed over and over. It's staying in that is the risk: you can't tell us what the EU will look like in ten years time.


Dodging questions like a politician. I'll ask once again, which part of the poster references their personality?

Trying to associate Boris Johnson with Nigel Farage in a shady picture. It's typical propaganda imagery.

But again I am glad you're resorting to it because quite simply people will see though it. It's all you have left now with 13 days to go.

[The Don]

We've never lost Great Power status.

This country does well because we're well educated, low levels of corruption and we work hard and make/provide good products/services.

Not because we're part of a failing organisation that only came into its modern form in 1992 lol.

worlds TOP power, obviously we're still a great power, quite clearly we aren't the worlds super power anymore which was the point I was making.




Please go back and read what I have written on EEA membership, EFTA membership or a UK-EU FTA Deal.

It's been discussed over and over. It's staying in that is the risk: you can't tell us what the EU will look like in ten years time.

What you want to happen and what the government will do are two separate things.




Trying to associate Boris Johnson with Nigel Farage with a shady picture. It's typical propaganda imagery.

But again I am glad you're resorting to it because quite simply people will see though it. It's all you have left now.

They are central leaders in the exit campaign, something the poster was refuting, they are associated. The fact that you have leaders on the leave side defecting due to lies being spread speaks volumes about the brexit camp and the campaign they're running. Simply positioning bojo next to farage is not a character attack, and it's certainly much more tame than lying to the public.

[-:Undertaker:-]

worlds TOP power, obviously we're still a great power, quite clearly we aren't the worlds super power anymore which was the point I was making.

And we achieved both without the European Union, thank you very much.

The men & women of this country like my family who worked to the bone to build this great country up did it themselves long ago, not thanks to EU directives. You lack confidence in this great country of ours and the ability of her people to make it in the modern world. It's kinda sad to witness such a lack of faith.


What you want to happen and what the government will do are two separate things.

Democracy in action which is what this is all about. If I do not like what a government does, I can vote it out. I cannot vote out the European Commission.

In any case, why will these not happen? Are you implying that the UK will suddenly decide to stop trading with Europe and the world? Why?


They are central leaders in the exit campaign something the poster was refuting, they are associated. The fact that you have leaders on the leave side defecting due to lies being spread speaks volumes about the brexit camp and the campaign they're running. Simply positioning bojo next to farage is not a character attack, nice try.

Sorry mate but it's a shady character attack and No.10 is going to go even more personally negative for the next 13 days according to Telegraph sources.

Big mistake.

[The Don]

Sorry mate but it's a shady character attack and No.10 is going to go even more personally negative for the next 13 days according to Telegraph sources.

Big mistake.

Yet you can't point out which part of it is shady other than the fact that it contains 3 of the leaders of the leave campaign next to each other.

I'll tell you what is a shady attack though:

http://leftfootforward.org/images/2016/05/rsz_cikhd7axaaiklxc.jpg

Thankfully the public now know about this lie which the leave camp have been peddling for the past few months despite knowing full well it isn't true, hence why one of the leaders defected yesterday.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Yet you can't point out which part of it is shady other than the fact that it contains 3 of the leaders of the leave campaign next to each other.

I'll tell you what is a shady attack though:

Your side is going for personal attacks on Boris because it is all you have left. Or to put it another way as your poster would, it is your last roll of the dice.


Thankfully the public now know about this lie which the leave camp have been peddling for the past few months despite knowing full well it isn't true, hence why one of the leaders defected yesterday.

Or she defected because she has been threatened by the whips and/or promised a job in return.

Only today your Remain leader David Cameron has shamelessly abused the Queen's Birthday Honours to reward his Remain lackeys.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3636046/Arise-Sir-Remain-Cameron-accused-tainting-Queen-s-birthday-honours-dishing-gongs-pro-EU-bosses.html

Arise the Knights of Remain! PM accused of 'borderline corruption' and tainting the Queen's Birthday Honours by dishing out gongs to at least 20 pro-EU bosses

- David Cameron is accused of handing out gongs to Remain supporters
- At least 20 people backing his pro-EU campaign have been honoured
- Labour MP Gisela Stuart said the situation is bordering on 'corrupt'


http://jrfilaments.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/partner-money-hand-shake1.jpg



David Cameron has used today's Queen's birthday honours to dish out gongs to Remain supporters.

At least 20 business chiefs and luvvies backing his campaign to keep Britain in the EU have been handed knighthoods or other accolades.

Gisela Stuart, a senior Labour MP, described the situation as 'bordering on the corrupt'. The honours row came as:

- A poll giving Brexit a ten-point lead caused panic within the Remain camp;
- After a mauling by an audience of young voters, the Prime Minister admitted he had to do 'a lot more to convince people' of his case;
- He condoned a brutal personal assault on Boris Johnson led by the pro-Brussels energy secretary Amber Rudd;
- A Tory minister apologised for suggesting that voters had no right to defy their elected leaders over the EU.

Among those handed a knighthood is Damon Buffini, a private equity boss who has helped bankroll the In campaign. Fellow donor John Armitage receives a CBE.

[The Don]

Your side is going for personal attacks on Boris because it is all you have left. Or to put it another way as your poster would, it is your last roll of the dice.


"Picturing the leaders of the leave campaign together is a personal attack" get a grip



Or she defected because she has been threatened by the whips and/or promised a job in return.

Ah this old tinfoilhattery again, who should we believe, the woman who actually switched sides and released a statement describing it, or -:Undertaker:-... Hmmm... Especially when you consider the brexit camp is full of tory members. Clutching at straws kid.

[-:Undertaker:-]

"Picturing the leaders of the leave campaign together is a personal attack" get a grip

Ah this old tinfoilhattery again, who should we believe, the woman who actually switched sides and released a statement describing it, or -:Undertaker:-... Hmmm... Especially when you consider the brexit camp is full of tory members. Clutching at straws kid.

I really believe a statement from a woman who we're supposed to believe changed her mind just overnight at the end of the campaign just as the party whips were going around in desperation threatening MPs over their career prospects. :P I mean, really come on now. She's been bought with a bag of gold.

I'll leave that fairytale to the Remain campaign along with classics like "Brexit causes WWII" and "You'll all lose your jobs if you don't vote the right way!"

[The Don]

I really believe a statement from a woman who we're supposed to believe changed her mind just overnight at the end of the campaign just as the party whips were going around in desperation threatening MPs over their career prospects. :P I mean, really come on now. She's been bought with a bag of gold.

I'll leave that fairytale to the Remain campaign along with classics like "Brexit causes WWII" and "You'll all lose your jobs if you don't vote the right way!"

I think i'm going to believe her over the leave side when they revealed themselves as liars yesterday:

http://leftfootforward.org/images/2016/05/rsz_cikhd7axaaiklxc.jpg

[-:Undertaker:-]

I think i'm going to believe her over the leave side when they revealed themselves as liars yesterday

Hahaha okay then.

The 350m figure was actually a stroke of genius. No matter how you count up EU membership (net, total, with or without rebate) it gets people talking about it. Whether it is £150m, £250m, £350m or £450m a week most people view it as money better spent here than on roads and railways in Spain and Greece.

And that's your major problem there which you can't answer. So what's the next scare story or personal attack for this week?

[The Don]

Hahaha okay then.

The 350m figure was actually a stroke of genius. No matter how you count up EU membership (net, total, with or without rebate) it gets people talking about it. Whether it is £150m, £250m, £350m or £450m a week most people view it as money better spent here than on roads and railways in Spain and Greece.

And that's your major problem there which you can't answer. So what's the next scare story or personal attack for this week?

"lying to the public to manipulate their vote" is not a stroke of genius.

[-:Undertaker:-]

"lying to the public to manipulate their vote" is not a stroke of genius.

Talk about a Shakespearean display of bravado!

A monumental 40-year rip off. It's time to bring that money home and spend it on our NHS, old age care, railways, education and tax cuts.

My school couldn't afford decent textbooks whilst the government has been sending money to build Greek roads and Spanish sewers. It's got to stop.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/23/article-0-0E7D3F1D00000578-723_468x240_popup.jpg

[The Don]

Talk about a Shakespearean display of bravado!

nah it's called having actual genuine principals, not pretending to have them when it suits me

[-:Undertaker:-]

nah it's called having actual genuine principals, not pretending to have them when it suits me

If you had principles you'd be arguing for a federal Europe or Leave.

Knew this was coming... :P


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkoHlYzW0AAyMww.jpg

[The Don]

If you had principles you'd be arguing for a federal Europe or Leave.

Knew this was coming... :P


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkoHlYzW0AAyMww.jpg

Now that actually is a character attack (cameron with the pig, miliband with the sandwich). Stay classy brexit camp

[-:Undertaker:-]

Now that actually is a character attack (cameron with the pig, miliband with the sandwich). Stay classy brexit camp

To be fair Cameron has told some right porkies this campaign.

[abc]

To be fair Cameron has told some right porkies this campaign.

I disagree but lmao nice one.

[Lucy]

I disagree but lmao nice one.

I am not going to quote anything specifically because people class didn't media as reputable or not, but did Cameron not say that "Brexit" could lead to war?

If he did not then fair enough, as it's been hard to follow across the pond :P

[-:Undertaker:-]

Another lie of the Remain camp is falling apart today as it transpires the government is preparing to grant 1m citizens of Turkey (EU candidate) visa-free travel. This comes despite Cameron - who is on record as wanting Turkey to join the EU which would give 80m Turks complete free access to the UK and our social services - and Remain claiming that Turkey isn't anywhere near joining the EU. Here's the most despicable thing though: we only know this because of a leak, they're planning to only announce and do this after we've voted in the referendum. A bit like how they're denying an EU army and have delayed plans for it until after we've voted.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36510009

741966020630466560


A British diplomat suggested visa-free travel for some Turkish nationals should be extended to the UK, documents leaked to The Sunday Times show.

She suggested the move be considered for Turkish "special passport" holders, who are mainly civil servants. The EU backed Turks getting visa-free travel inside Europe's Schengen area, as a deal for accepting more migrants. But the UK home and foreign secretaries said any suggestion of changing visa arrangements were "completely untrue".

The leaked telegrams, sent on 5 May by Janet Douglas, the deputy head of mission at the British Embassy in Ankara relate to the EU's own visa deal, planned as recompense for Turkish help dealing with the Syrian migrant crisis. The deal, to allow visa-free travel to Schengen countries, was offered in return for Turkey taking back migrants who crossed the Aegean Sea to Greece. The EU fears that, without it, Turkey will not control migration.

Pro-Brexit ex-cabinet minister Iain Duncan Smith said the documents showed Prime Minister David Cameron was involved with the European Commission in "an appalling deceit" to keep the prospect secret until after the EU referendum vote on 23 June.

He said: "They say nothing is happening about Turkey, but this shows they are already making official plans to allow visa free access for Turkish citizens.
"The attempt to hide this, and to delay key decisions until after the referendum, is cynical in the extreme."

Albania, the Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey are all EU candidate countries.

Can anyone imagine the bill to pay when this combined group of very poor countries of over 100m people join the EU and will have free movement to the UK?

How can our public services cope with this insanity?


I am not going to quote anything specifically because people class didn't media as reputable or not, but did Cameron not say that "Brexit" could lead to war?

If he did not then fair enough, as it's been hard to follow across the pond :P

Cameron didn't specifically say it but he did allude to it by mentioning rows of white headstones across Europe.

He's a very ignorant man though because it has been NATO who have kept the peace in Europe.

[abc]

I am not going to quote anything specifically because people class didn't media as reputable or not, but did Cameron not say that "Brexit" could lead to war?

If he did not then fair enough, as it's been hard to follow across the pond :P
Yes followed by a sensible explanation (well as sensible as all of Brexit's explanations).

[The Don]

Yes followed by a sensible explanation (well as sensible as all of Brexit's explanations).

He basically pointed out the truth that the EU has helped bring peace to what was once a volatile and unstable continent. 60 years ago we would have laughed at the idea of open borders between Germany, France, Poland etc... It's amazing what the EU has helped achieve.

[abc]

He basically pointed out the truth that the EU has helped bring peace to what was once a volatile and unstable continent. 60 years ago we would have laughed at the idea of open borders between Germany, France, Poland etc... It's amazing what the EU has helped achieve.

Exactly. And though it is true, the chance of a war between UK and Germany even if we exit is highly unlikely... but hey who knows? However at least via EU we know for sure we wont have a war between member states.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Exactly. And though it is true, the chance of a war between UK and Germany even if we exit is highly unlikely... but hey who knows? However at least via EU we know for sure we wont have a war between member states.

how ridiculous

if anything the EU is causing tension and risks violence as it's forcing different peoples together who don't want to be together. we've all seen the hatred the dislike many Greeks now have for the Germans and the tension EU causes between Britain and other countries. the EU is like a giant proto-Yugoslavia and will end in tears. People are now even resorting to voting for fascists in some countries because they feel powerless - the EU is fuelling violence and extremism.

the greeks should run greece, the british should run britain and the germans should run germany. live and co-exist happily as neighbours but just as you wouldn't let your next door neighbour decide which carpet you should have, what rent you will pay or who can go and live in your house.

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/media/USATODAY/USATODAY/2012/10/09/ap-greece-financial-crisis-merkel-4_3_r560.jpg?f061b7ce9937c38b702e6f308816ac2a14e2a 4ec

[The Don]

how ridiculous

if anything the EU is causing tension and risks violence as it's forcing different peoples together who don't want to be together. we've all seen the hatred the dislike many Greeks now have for the Germans and the tension EU causes between Britain and other countries. the EU is like a giant proto-Yugoslavia and will end in tears. People are now even resorting to voting for fascists in some countries because they feel powerless - the EU is fuelling violence and extremism.

the greeks should run greece, the british should run britain and the germans should run germany. live and co-exist happily as neighbours but just as you wouldn't let your next door neighbour decide which carpet you should have, what rent you will pay or who can go and live in your house.

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/media/USATODAY/USATODAY/2012/10/09/ap-greece-financial-crisis-merkel-4_3_r560.jpg?f061b7ce9937c38b702e6f308816ac2a14e2a 4ec

speak for yourself mate

[-:Undertaker:-]

speak for yourself mate

i speak for Europe actually.

barely anyone in europe wants more powers to the EU level (infact the opposite).

so speak for YOURSELF mate. :)

http://www.ezimba.com/work/160613C/ezimba13810289691500.png

[The Don]

i speak for Europe actually.

barely anyone in europe wants more powers to the EU level (infact the opposite).

so speak for YOURSELF mate. :)

http://www.ezimba.com/work/160613C/ezimba13810289691500.png

working together != more powers to eu

[-:Undertaker:-]

working together != more powers to eu

who is opposed to working together i mean really. most people are for bilateralism but not supranationalism.

EU membership de facto means more powers to the EU as is written in the treaties and is the final aim. as i've said countless times, if you truly wanted just to work together rather than a federal, centralised EU then you'd be backing Leave and advocating EEA or EFTA membership.

as the EU keeps acquiring powers without consent and blindly ignoring referendum after referendum as well as elected governments, this is going to lead to an eventual backlash. and it ain't going to be pretty as people turn to extremists to assert their rights as seen in greece, austria and elsewhere.

[The Don]

Right, let's follow this illogical train-wreck from start to finish:

dan: The EU is forcing different peoples together who don't want to be together
akeam: speak for yourself mate
dan: shows statistics about people not wanting more powers to go to the EU Well, you're in the minority!
akeam: working together (different people coming together) is not the same thing as more powers going to the EU
dan: who said people don't want to work together?!

You did Dan, in your first post.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Right, let's follow this illogical train-wreck from start to finish:

dan: The EU is forcing different peoples together who don't want to be together
akeam: speak for yourself mate
dan: shows statistics about people not wanting more powers to go to the EU Well, you're in the minority!
akeam: working together (different people coming together) is not the same thing as more powers going to the EU
dan: who said people don't want to work together?!

You did Dan, in your first post.

there's a world of difference between working together as independent countries and being forced together under the same legal+political system. duh.

i'm for working together (as we do) with Australia, America, Russia, India and Jamaica. But I don't want to write their laws or overrule their governments.


Bilateralism refers to the political, economic, or cultural relations between two sovereign states. When states recognize one another as sovereign states and agree to develop diplomatic relations, they exchange diplomatic agents such as ambassadors to facilitate dialogues and cooperations that will be exchanged. It is an agreement that is affecting or undertaken by two parties; a mutual agreement.

yes please.


A supranational union is a type of multinational political union where negotiated power is delegated to an authority by governments of member states.

no thanks

[The Don]

there's a world of difference between working together as independent countries and being forced together under the same legal+political system. duh.

i'm for working together (as we do) with Australia, America, Russia, India and Jamaica. But I don't want to write their laws or overrule their governments.

Your direct quote, which i bolded and responded to, was : "forcing different peoples together who don't want to be together", not anything else. It's not my problem if you can't express yourself in writing properly.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Your direct quote, which i bolded and responded to, was : "forcing different peoples together who don't want to be together", not anything else. It's not my problem if you can't express yourself in writing properly.

so what's your point here i don't get it. again you're trying to be smart and argue on language technicalities rather than the principle.

the EU forces peoples who are different together who don't want to be together. and we don't. we'll work together, but thats different to being together in an economic and political union with powers delegated to an unelected Commission. for example i want to work with the United States but that doesn't mean i want to become a US state, be subject to their Supreme Court or their administration & civil service.

[The Don]

so what's your point here i don't get it. again you're trying to be smart and argue on language technicalities rather than the principle.

the EU forces peoples who are different together who don't want to be together. and we don't. we'll work together, but thats different to being together.

You said the eu is forcing people to be together who don't want to be together, i quite clearly proved that statement wrong as I do, you then showed irrelevant statistics about powers being transferred to brussels. The point is you shouldn't make generalised and false statements.

[-:Undertaker:-]

You said the eu is forcing people to be together who don't want to be together, i quite clearly proved that statement wrong as I do, you then showed irrelevant statistics about powers being transferred to brussels. The point is you shouldn't make generalised and false statements.

erm what. so you haven't seen the poll i posted above?

referendum after referendum has rejected more powers to the European level. we don't want that yet it keeps happening. it's like your campaign keeps making out no more powers are going to the EU cos you know people don't want that - apart from 6% of the population. you're being very untruthful about the aims.

again it goes back to it. if you're not a federalist as you seem to make out, why are you not for Leave and backing EEA or EFTA membership? :S

[The Don]

erm what. so you haven't seen the poll i posted above?

referendum after referendum has rejected more powers to the European level. we don't want that yet it keeps happening. it's just how your campaign keeps making out no more powers are going to the EU cos you know people don't want that - apart from 6% of the population. you're being very untruthful about the aims.

being together != more powers going to the eu

seriously, how have you got a degree?

[-:Undertaker:-]

being together != more powers going to the eu

seriously, how have you got a degree?

being in the EU means more powers going to the EU.

seriously, how can you even make an argument on this when you're seemingly unaware of how EU treaties and law work?

[The Don]

being in the EU means more powers going to the EU.

seriously, how can you even make an argument on this when you're seemingly unaware of how EU treaties and law work?

Wanting to remain in the eu and wanting more powers to go to the eu are not the same things Dan, if you can't understand that simple concept then there's no hope for you.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Wanting to remain in the eu and wanting more powers to go to the eu are not the same things Dan, if you can't understand that simple concept then there's no hope for you.

that's like wanting to jump in the swimming pool but not wanting to get wet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquis_communautaire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solemn_Declaration_on_European_Union

for the love of god please read the EU treaties and understand EU law before stating such untruths. the treaties write in them "ever closer union" and it is the principle under which the european courts operate. the rachtet effect in EU law means that once something has gone into EU law, it is almost impossible to unpick it hence how it acquires more powers over time.

they're talking about a political union by 2025 openly and an EU army. yet Akeam says he wants to be in the EU but no more powers going to it. if that's truly what he wanted, then he'd be arguing for EEA membership which offers much of what the EU does but which doesn't have to abide by ever closer union or the acquis law.

he's either a federalist who knows not to say it aloud as unpopular or he's like many remainers and doesn't understand the purpose of the thing he supports.

[The Don]

that's like wanting to jump in the swimming pool but not wanting to get wet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquis_communautaire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solemn_Declaration_on_European_Union

for the love of god please read the EU treaties and understand EU law before stating such untruths. the treaties write in them "ever closer union" and it is the principle under which the european courts operate. the rachtet effect in EU law means that once something has gone into EU law, it is almost impossible to unpick it hence how it acquires more powers over time.

they're talking about a political union by 2025 openly and an EU army. yet Akeam says he wants to be in the EU but no more powers going to it. if that's truly what he wanted, then he'd be arguing for EEA membership which offers much of what the EU does but which doesn't have to abide by ever closer union or the acquis law.

In the most recent poll of polls, 44% of people want the UK to stay part of the EU, that doesn't mean 44% of people want more powers to go to the EU. Wanting to be together with the other people in the EU doesn't mean you want more powers to go to the EU, they are not the same thing. You are wrong.
https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/

and where have I said I don't want more powers going to the EU? Stop making things up.

[-:Undertaker:-]

In the most recent poll of polls, 44% of people want the UK to stay part of the EU, that doesn't mean 44% of people want more powers to go to the EU. Wanting to be together with the other people in the EU doesn't mean you want more powers to go to the EU, they are not the same thing. You are wrong.
https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/

because the 44% of people are being told by the PM, government and your Remain campaign that no more powers will go to the EU when they will.

if your side campaigned honestly for the reality - and what you seemingly want - of more powers to the EU we'd be out tomorrow and you know it.


and where have I said I don't want more powers going to the EU? Stop making things up.

so you do want more powers to go from national government to the european commission?

[The Don]

I can want to remain part of the EU whilst also not wanting more powers to go to the EU. They are two separate things. You are undeniably wrong. Take a beginners logic class.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I can want to remain part of the EU whilst also not wanting more powers to go to the EU. They are two separate things. You are undeniably wrong. Take a beginners logic class.

no you cannot when the legal system of the EU operates contrary to what you are claiming. sorry dude but i think you know what i am saying is legally sound and politically undeniable but you're just too proud to climb down from your position on this. if you're being truthful that you don't want more powers to go to the European Union and its European institutions which is the position i hold along with the vast majority of the population, then you should be backing either EEA or EFTA membership. just think about it before you cast that ballot because by voting Remain you're committing this country to ever closer union and thus another inevitable referendum.

[The Don]

no you cannot when the legal system of the EU operates contrary to what you are claiming. sorry dude but i think you know what i am saying is legally sound and politically undeniable but you're just too proud to climb down from your position on this. if you're being truthful that you don't want more powers to go to the European Union and its European institutions which is the position i hold along with the vast majority of the population, then you should be backing either EEA or EFTA membership. just think about it before you cast that ballot because by voting Remain you're committing this country to ever closer union and thus another inevitable referendum.

I want to eat cake for every meal. That doesn't mean I want to get fat.

Speak for yourself when you say the EU is forcing people together when they don't want to be, quite clearly a large portion of the British public want to remain part of the EU and therefore want to "be together" with the other people of Europe.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I can want to eat cake for every meal. That doesn't mean I want to get fat.

Speak for yourself when you say the EU is forcing people together when they don't want to be, quite clearly a large portion of the British public want to remain part of the EU and therefore want to "be together" with the other people of Europe.

Only because they're being fed the lie that no more powers will be going to Brussels when they will.

And you can be 'together' via EEA/EFTA but without more powers going to EU institutions. That's what you claim you want so why not back Leave/EEA/EFTA.

The big problem here is that, if Remain do win the referendum and the European Union acquires more powers (as it will) then ultimately there are going to be calls for another referendum over the next decade and one will be held: with a lot of people who voted Remain pissed they were lied to as they were in 1975 about no more powers going over to Brussels. Why commit the country to a project that is going in the opposite direction to what we want, along with another decade of uncertainty, when we can come to our senses now and realise we've gone as far as we're going to go in terms of integration?

That just seems to me to be so sensible and logical.

[The Don]

that's nice but not what I was discussing

[-:Undertaker:-]

that's nice but not what I was discussing

Because you've no answer to it.

You know legally and politically through EU membership this country is committed to further transfers of powers to the European Union and its courts.

It'd be like joining NATO and saying you don't want to go to war under any circumstances. Well then, NATO isn't the alliance for you then is it...

[The Don]

Because you've no answer to it.

You know legally and politically through EU membership this country is committed to further transfers of powers to the European Union and its courts.

It'd be like joining NATO and saying you don't want to go to war under any circumstances. Well then, NATO isn't the alliance for you then is it...

Well no, I do have an answer for it, we've had this debate before and it ends in you passing off illogical hypothetical scenarios as a definitive future outcome of continued eu membership (a mythical eurozone voting bloc, composed of states working against their own interests, outvoting us in parliament on hypothetical legislation which we hypothetically disagree with, forcing us to join a hypothetical federal europe).

Quite clearly the prime minister, and the EU, have said the UK is to receive an exemption from further political integration and any changes will result in a referendum.

I'm not going to reply to any hypothetical arguments you make based on conjecture, so if you want to respond to the point above (and want an answer), please explain with evidence why the prime minister is wrong when he says we've received an opt-out of political integration.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I'm not going to reply to any hypothetical arguments you make based on conjecture, so if you want to respond to the point above (and want an answer), please explain with evidence why the prime minister is wrong when he says we've received an opt-out of political integration.

Because there have been no treaty revisions or structural changes to the courts of the European Union and the Commission. His renegotiation is worthless.

We've been here before hence why so many older voters are determined not to be fooled again as in 1975.


“There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.”

Prime Minister Edward Heath, television broadcast on Britain’s entry into the Common Market, January 1973

That's what the Prime Minister of the day told us. It was just a trading arrangement we were told.

Here's what the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (now declassified) was saying though behind our backs.


“the ultimate creation of a European federal state, with a single currency. All the basic instruments of national economic management (fiscal, monetary, incomes and regional policies) would ultimately be handed over to the central federal authorities. The Werner report suggests that this radical transformation of present Communities should be accomplished within a decade”. (PRO/FCO 30/789)

And in terms of supremacy of the law.


This country quite voluntarily surrendered the once seemingly immortal concept of the sovereignty of parliament and legislative freedom by membership of the European Union … as a once sovereign power, we have said we want to be bound by Community law.

Judge Bruce Morgan, judgement in Sunderland metrication case April 9, 2001

[The Don]

Ah yes, the Prime Minister says no more powers to the EU so it must be true.



That's what the Prime Minister of the day told us. It was just a trading arrangement we were told.

Here's what the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (now declassified) was saying though behind our backs.



And in terms of supremacy of the law.

The EU has said we've got an opt-out of further political integration. Your entire argument is based on the premise "people have lied in the past so they are lying now therefore we are gonna definitely end up in a federal eu", hardly a compelling argument. Tell me, in that case, using your own logic why should anyone believe a word that comes out of the leave campaign when we found out they were intentionally lying to the public over the 350m a week figure? According to Dan logic everything they come up with now is false because they lied about this figure.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The EU has said we've got an opt-out of further political integration. Your entire argument is based on the premise "people have lied in the past so they are lying now therefore we are gonna definitely end up in a federal eu", hardly a compelling argument. Tell me, in that case, using your own logic why should anyone believe a word that comes out of the leave campaign when we found out they were intentionally lying to the public over the 350m a week figure? According to Dan logic everything they come up with now is false because they lied about this figure.

The supposed opt-out has no legal standing what-so-ever.

Had the treaties been amended and structural changes been made then this claim would be plausible. EU Law doesn't operate on the basis of what Mr Cameron says to we the British public, it operates on the basis of what the treaties say and the principle of acquis and supremacy of European law over national law.

[The Don]

The supposed opt-out has no legal standing what-so-ever.

Had the treaties been amended and structural changes been made then this claim would be plausible. EU Law doesn't operate on the basis of what Mr Cameron says to we the British public, it operates on the basis of what the treaties say and the principle of acquis and supremacy of European law over national law.

Hasn't been amended yet, that doesn't mean we're going to be forced into more political union. The British public would riot if they recanted and forced us into a federal EU, it's simply not going to happen unless we agree with the further integration via referendum as has been promised.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Hasn't been amended yet, that doesn't mean we're going to be forced into more political union.

If it hasn't been amended then it has no legal standing. The treaties are the cornerstone of the courts and EU law.


The British public would riot if they recanted and forced us into a federal EU, it's simply not going to happen unless we agree with the further integration via referendum as has been promised.

Really? I'd like to think we would but that's what we were promised in 1973 and since 1973 we've had huge swathes of powers transferred with the Single European Act (SEA), the Treaty of Maastricht, the Treaty of Amsterdam, the Treaty of Nice and the Treaty of Lisbon. In 2015 the government, despite having a "referendum lock" opted into European Criminal and Justice competences which was a huge transfer of power without a mandate to do so.

I think if we do Remain then there will be another referendum by 2025. It begs the question, why vote to stay when we're going to have to Leave in the end?

[The Don]

If it hasn't been amended then it has no legal standing. The treaties are the cornerstone of the courts and EU law.



Really? I'd like to think we would but that's what we were promised in 1973 and since 1973 we've had huge swathes of powers transferred with the Single European Act (SEA), the Treaty of Maastricht, the Treaty of Amsterdam, the Treaty of Nice and the Treaty of Lisbon. In 2015 the government, despite having a "referendum lock" opted into European Criminal and Justice competences which was a huge transfer of power without a mandate to do so.

As you said here:


by voting Remain you're committing this country to ever closer union and thus another inevitable referendum.

If they attempt more political union with the UK we'll get another referendum. Further political integration won't be happening unless we agree to it. Any claim otherwise is the stuff of conspiracy and on the same level as 9/11 being an inside job.

[-:Undertaker:-]

As you said here:

If they attempt more political union with the UK we'll get another referendum. Further political integration won't be happening unless we agree to it. Any claim otherwise is the stuff of conspiracy and on the same level as 9/11 being an inside job.

I think another referendum will be inevitable but by then they could have signed us up to all sorts of new European competences as they have done since 1975 without any referendums which will make it much harder for this country to extract itself from when we eventually leave. Each time they have signed us up to more after all, they've dressed it up as a "tidying up exercise" (Lisbon) or promised us opt-outs or "red lines" (Maastricht) which were later dropped faster than a hot potato. I really do not see the point in voting to Remain now and making it harder on ourselves, as well as making it harder by stalling our European partners who need to integrate in order to save their currency, only to have to undo all of this law and extract ourselves a mere ten years later.

What would be the point in that? May aswell accept now we're on divergent paths, wish them well, vote Leave and join the EEA or EFTA. A settled outcome.

[The Don]

There's been a swing in the polls in the favour of remain. This is going to be so close, have booked Thursday evening off to stay up for the results.

[Inseriousity.]

There's been a swing in the polls in the favour of remain. This is going to be so close, have booked Thursday evening off to stay up for the results.

lol I booked friday off for the same reason. such a political nerd haha

[The Don]

lol I booked friday off for the same reason. such a political nerd haha

Haha, I booked friday off too so that I could recover! Going to stock up on energy drinks and snacks to keep myself going

[-:Undertaker:-]

I've thus far done 1,250 households (2,500 leaflets) with friends for Vote Leave and Labour Leave and expect to more than double that this week. I've been literally praying at night for the first time in years over this and have felt sick to my stomach thinking about it. It's horrific but I am optimistic on some factors.

My strategy now if I were running Leave would be to bring out the immigration cannon, that this is the last chance to control the borders or else before we know it 80 million Turks will have the right to come to this country. Ignore Osborne: hammer the immigration message like it's never been hammered before.

With an expected status quo swingback this is all likely to come down to postal votes, demographic turnout and undecideds.

[lemons]

excited to vote for the very first time on thursday!

[abc]

I've thus far done 1,250 households (2,500 leaflets) with friends for Vote Leave and Labour Leave and expect to more than double that this week. I've been literally praying at night for the first time in years over this and have felt sick to my stomach thinking about it. It's horrific but I am optimistic on some factors.

My strategy now if I were running Leave would be to bring out the immigration cannon, that this is the last chance to control the borders or else before we know it 80 million Turks will have the right to come to this country. Ignore Osborne: hammer the immigration message like it's never been hammered before.

With an expected status quo swingback this is all likely to come down to postal votes, demographic turnout and undecideds.

This isn't a referendum on voting to remain or leaving the European Union. It is a vote on whether we should keep our power in the European Union. How so? Well if we remain, we still have a vote and we can in some way shape the laws. If we leave, we will most likely join the free market, which means we will still have to allow freedom of movement (so those voting purely to stop immigration... well unlucky as that will never happen) and we will still have to adhere to many EU laws, but by leaving we will have zero say on how those laws are made etc. It is better to stay and have some power, instead of leaving, having the same conditions and having no say.

It's a no brainer.

And fgs, stop using Turkey. It will be decades before they join. Proves how Leave campaign are so desperate they are creating false fear.

PS:

http://i67.tinypic.com/907h9t.jpg

[-:Undertaker:-]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMEB6sNb0yw


This isn't a referendum on voting to remain or leaving the European Union. It is a vote on whether we should keep our power in the European Union. How so? Well if we remain, we still have a vote and we get in some way shape the laws. If we leave, we will most likely join the free market, which means we will still have to allow freedom of movement (so those voting purely to stop immigration... well unlucky as that will never happen) and we will still have to adhere to many EU laws, but by leaving we will have zero say on how those laws are made etc. It is better to stay and have some power, instead of leaving, having the same conditions and having no say.

We don't have any say.

The EU has gone in the total opposite direction to what we have wanted for the past 41 years. The renegotiation Wilson secured was a total fraud as is the renegotiation Cameron secured. Both were told to drop dead because the EU is quite clear where it is going. It seems to only be British politicians who consistently deny where this thing is heading and you're colluding in it. Even if Remain prevail on Thursday, this isn't over.

The EU is already floating proposals for EU-wide taxes on petrol, electric and airfares (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/18/petrol-electricity-and-airfares-could-be-taxed-under-radical-pro/). Yet your side keeps telling us no more powers will go to the EU.


And fgs, stop using Turkey. It will be decades before they join. Proves how Leave campaign are so desperate they are creating false fear.

A liar just like Cameron.

Only last year was he advocating Turkey joining the EU and only this year in the campaign is he now saying it won't join.

Well if that is true then....

a) Why won't he pledge to use his veto?
b) Diplomatic cables that were leaked last week proved he and the Remain camp as utter liars.

http://order-order.com/2016/06/12/read-turkey-cables-in-full/


These are the leaked diplomatic cables referenced by the Sunday Times which show British diplomats discussing plans to allow visa-free access to the UK for over a million Turks. The key sections are highlighted, for example this bombshell paragraph which argues Britain should “assess again the possibility of visa travel”.

http://i1.wp.com/order-order.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/visa-4.png?resize=540%2C142

Remember, Cameron publicly said “we won’t be offering visa-free access to Turks” and that Turkey is not an issue in the referendum…

I'm sure @abc (https://www.habboxforum.com/member.php?u=125189); will agree with me that the moment Brussels attempts to take more powers another referendum will have to be called.

[abc]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMEB6sNb0yw



This was 6 years ago lmao and he said it in Turkey.

[-:Undertaker:-]

This was 6 years ago lmao and he said it in Turkey.

And? He said it as do the leaked government cables from last week.

It also means our contributions will keep rising and "influence" is going to keep decreasing as Albania, Turkey and various others join.

How about another bombshell? Let's see who's telling the truth.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/12023457/Brussels-to-ease-visa-restrictions-on-Turkey-in-exchange-for-taking-back-deported-migrants.html


http://infacts.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Vote-Leave-Twitter-Graphic.jpg


Turkish citizens will be allowed visa-free access to continental Europe as part of a deal which could see the country join the EU in exchange for helping with the migrant crisis.

EU leaders on Sunday signed a deal meaning that Ankara will take back deported migrants from European countries in exchange for visa restrictions to be lifted and talks on Turkey joining the EU to be accelerated. The agreement, which will be worth €3 billion (£2.1 billion) to Turkey, calls on Ankara to do more to stop refugees illegally travelling to across to Greece from its western border.

However, it means that Turkish people will be given the right to travel to EU countries in the Schengen zone – which Britain is not a part of – from next year. The EU also said that it will re-open talks on whether to allow Turkey, which has a population of more than 70 million, to join the EU.

Critics have warned that allowing Turkey to join the EU would result in large numbers of migrants attempting to travel to the UK.

You haven't answered me either.

If more powers are transferred to the EU - which Remain claims won't happen - will you immediately accept another referendum on membership?

[abc]

And? He said it as do the leaked government cables from last week.

It also means our contributions will keep rising and "influence" is going to keep decreasing as Albania, Turkey and various others join.

How about another bombshell? Let's see who's telling the truth.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/12023457/Brussels-to-ease-visa-restrictions-on-Turkey-in-exchange-for-taking-back-deported-migrants.html


http://infacts.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Vote-Leave-Twitter-Graphic.jpg



You haven't answered me either.

If more powers are transferred to the EU - which Remain claims won't happen - will you immediately accept another referendum on membership?

And yet you fail to acknowledge that even if we leave, we will almost certainly join the EU Free Trade Zone and allow freedom of movement. So this Turkey argument is pointless as leaving will not solve it.

And yes, if conditions are broken then I think it is only right that the public are given another vote.

[-:Undertaker:-]

And yet you fail to acknowledge that even if we leave, we will almost certainly join the EU Free Trade Zone and allow freedom of movement. So this Turkey argument is pointless as leaving will not solve it.

Firstly it isn't called the EU Free Trade Zone.

There's four options on the table after we Leave, three of which do not include Freedom of Movement.

An FTA for example, which I favour, does not include open borders. Does America have open borders to trade with the EU? No, so why should we?


And yes, if conditions are broken then I think it is only right that the public are given another vote.

If your word is worth anything and Remain do win this Thursday, you'll be calling for another referendum by 2017.

I guarantee it because as has been discussed earlier, the treaties have not been amended to exclude ever closer union so the European Courts will continue with acquis and plans are already being put forward for a European army along with EU wide taxes and a banking union.

The only difference will be that the public will be hugely pissed off that you sold them an empty basket. You can kiss the post-Brexit EEA option goodbye then.

[scottish]

I've thus far done 1,250 households (2,500 leaflets) with friends for Vote Leave and Labour Leave and expect to more than double that this week. I've been literally praying at night for the first time in years over this and have felt sick to my stomach thinking about it. It's horrific but I am optimistic on some factors.

My strategy now if I were running Leave would be to bring out the immigration cannon, that this is the last chance to control the borders or else before we know it 80 million Turks will have the right to come to this country. Ignore Osborne: hammer the immigration message like it's never been hammered before.

With an expected status quo swingback this is all likely to come down to postal votes, demographic turnout and undecideds.

do you actually think that makes any difference though honestly?

soon as I get any crap through the door like that I bin it, if people are unsure on what to vote do you really think they're saying oh i'll wait on some chap to put a flyer through my door?

[-:Undertaker:-]

do you actually think that makes any difference though honestly?

soon as I get any crap through the door like that I bin it, if people are unsure on what to vote do you really think they're saying oh i'll wait on some chap to put a flyer through my door?

It's been proven canvassing and leafleting works, especially targeted leafleting hence why the Conservatives won an unexpected victory in 2015. The data they had on their systems down to where their voters lived, where the swing voters lived was a huge professional operation hence the electoral onslaught. Even if out of 2,000 households I cover say 200 people (10%) to change their mind/are motivated to go out and vote Leave then I will have made a difference.

I have no interest in leafleting for dishonest political parties at election time of all colours. My motivating thought for this all the time is of visiting the Commonwealth war graves in France and Belgium a few years back. The countless men my age who died for our independence. I'd feel guilty if I did nothing.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The Great Debate

Final Debate for Thursday's EU referendum at Wembley Arena on BBC One this Tuesday at 8pm

Representing Vote Leave will be Boris Johnson (Conservative) MP, Giesla Stuart (Labour) MP and Andrea Leadsom (Conservative) MP

Representing Britain Stronger in Europe will be Mayor of London Sadiq Khan (Labour), Ruth Davies MSP (Conservative) and Frances o'Grady (TUC)

http://i2.wp.com/order-order.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Screen-Shot-2016-06-19-at-09.27.26.png?resize=561%2C336



The BBC has today confirmed the panellists for its final and biggest debate on the EU referendum, to be broadcast on BBC One on 21 June at 8pm.

Senior campaigners for Vote Leave Boris Johnson MP and Gisela Stuart MP will be joined by Andrea Leadsom MP to represent leave.

Leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Ruth Davidson MSP, London Mayor Sadiq Khan and Frances O’Grady, General Secretary of the TUC from the Britain Stronger in Europe campaign, will represent remain.

David Dimbleby hosts the event, joined by Mishal Husain and Emily Maitlis, live from the SSE Arena, Wembley.

Both sides of the debate will make opening and closing statements. The six panellists will debate the key EU Referendum issues, including the economy and immigration, and take questions in front of an audience of thousands of voters.

For each topic there will be questions from two audience members – split evenly between leave and remain supporters. Each panellist on the main stage will have the opportunity to answer the question and then debate the subject.

There will be additional opinion and commentary on the issues from a second stage of further 10 guests made up of five representatives from each side, moderated by Mishal Husain. For remain, these will be SNP’s Humza Yousaf MSP, Conservative MP Sarah Wollaston, Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron, Green Party MP Caroline Lucas, and Justin King, former CEO of Sainsbury’s. Representing leave on the second stage will be Conservative Minister Priti Patel MP, UKIP’s Diane James MEP, Harsimrat Kaur from Women for Britain, Tim Martin, founder and chairman of Wetherspoons, and journalist and author Tony Parsons.

The final part of the live programme is presented by Emily Maitlis from the media room, at the Drum, where she will gauge the immediate reaction to the debate and assess the facts and claims made with the help of the BBC’s Reality Check team led on the night by Economics Editor, Kamal Ahmad and Europe Editor, Katya Adler.

EU Referendum – The Great Debate will be broadcast on Tuesday 21 June at 8pm–10pm on BBC One.

Over 20,000 people applied for 6,000 tickets for The Great Debate.


I've posted alone from the Megathread as thought people might like to know it is on and tune in.

Interesting that Remain have changed their team whereas Leave have kept theirs from the last debate...



Thread merged by Chris (Forum Moderator): As all EU Referendum discussion must be posted in the Megathread.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Cameron still repeating the "Turkey won't join until the year 3000 lie" on BBC Question Time right now.

If that's the case then WHY DOES THE FUCKING UK TURKISH EMBASSY SAY THIS ON THE WEBSITE the lying devious deceptive ****

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClVV-tzWgAEviht.jpg

[The Don]

Cameron still repeating the "Turkey won't join until the year 3000 lie" on BBC Question Time right now.

If that's the case then WHY DOES THE FUCKING UK TURKISH EMBASSY SAY THIS ON THE WEBSITE the lying devious deceptive ****

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClVV-tzWgAEviht.jpg

They've been attempting to join since 1987, any progress they did make towards accession has been undone by Erdogan's recent antics. Not to mention we can veto anyone from joining. It would be wrong to say they're definitely never going to join, however it doesn't look like it's happening, especially anytime soon.

[-:Undertaker:-]

They've been attempting to join since 1987, any progress they did make towards accession has been undone by Erdogan's recent antics. Not to mention we can veto anyone from joining. It would be wrong to say they're definitely never going to join, however it doesn't look like it's happening, especially anytime soon.

And Cameron refuses point blank to say he would veto Turkish membership. He and the establishment also support EU membership of Albania, Macedonia, Montenegr'o, Serbia and possibly Bosnia and Kosovo. All complete basket case countries with high levels of corruption and immensely poor - meaning yet an even bigger bill for us to pay... forever and ever. In addition, that's over 100 million additional (poor) people having complete free movement to the UK.

Never did I think I would come to despise somebody on a level as much as I do Blair but Cameron has done it. I'm restraining myself even talking about him.

744614534480945152

744606301490135041

744606624489345024

744607015826259972

[The Don]

And Cameron refuses point blank to say he would veto Turkish membership. He and the establishment also support EU membership of Albania, Macedonia, Montenegr'o, Serbia and possibly Bosnia and Kosovo. All complete basket case countries with high levels of corruption and immensely poor - meaning yet an even bigger bill for us to pay... forever and ever. In addition, that's over 100 million additional (poor) people having complete free movement to the UK.



Yes, which is why there is an incredibly long and tedious joining process where eliminating corruption is one of the requirements. Cameron's not in a position to veto it as they won't be joining anytime soon, it's literally a nonissue.

[Lucy]

Don't know if I missed this being discussed but whose likely to have the best coverage on referendum evening? Are we going to hear the result on that evening?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Yes, which is why there is an incredibly long and tedious joining process where eliminating corruption is one of the requirements. Cameron's not in a position to veto it as they won't be joining anytime soon, it's literally a nonissue.

Don't make me laugh with the "tedious process" line. Oh yeah, just like the "tedious process" which saw Greece, Spain etc all shoved into the Eurozone when they were clearly unsuitable to join but as usual in Brussels it was the politics which came before anything else. More Europe and more power at any cost even if it destroys millions of lives as it has done for nearly a decade now of recession. Exactly the same story when they tried to force Britain into the European Exchange Rate Mechanism, causing a recession which cost us billions until we were ejected by market forces. Again, utopianism before realism.

Remain are lying that Turkey isn't going to join, and the EU is already going to grant visa access to Turks this summer (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36276419) which is a step to membership. I was going to add that Cameron could always just say now he'd veto Turkish membership (the fact he won't tells us all we need to know) but who'd believe him anyway? Our public services are just going to be crippled if these countries join, our population will head 80m upwards. It's depressing and bleak.


Don't know if I missed this being discussed but whose likely to have the best coverage on referendum evening? Are we going to hear the result on that evening?

Sunderland is expected to declare first at 2pm.

It'll be a long night and if the results are close then it could be early hours of the morning. Best to check Twitter journos for what sources are saying.

[The Don]

Don't make me laugh with the "tedious process" line. Oh yeah, just like the "tedious process" which saw Greece, Spain etc all shoved into the Eurozone when they were clearly unsuitable to join but as usual in Brussels it was the politics which came before anything else. More Europe and more power. Exactly the same when they tried to force Britain into the European Exchange Rate Mechanism which cost us billions until we were ejected by market forces. Again, utopianism before realism.

Remain are lying that Turkey isn't going to join, and the EU is already going to grant visa access to Turks this summer (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36276419) which is a step to membership. I was going to add that Cameron could always just say now he'd veto Turkish membership (the fact he won't tells us all we need to know) but who'd believe him anyway?



Sunderland is expected to declare first at 2pm.

It'll be a long night and if the results are close then it could be early hours of the morning. Best to check Twitter journos for what sources are saying.

Well it is long and tedious since Turkey has only met 1 out out of the 35 targets for joining since 1987, and you know very well that Greece lied about their financial situation to get in quicker.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Well it is long and tedious since Turkey has only met 1 out out of the 35 targets for joining since 1987, and you know very well that Greece lied about their financial situation to get in quicker.

Yeah cos we all know to take these countries at their word. :rolleyes:

If you believe the EU really believed Greece then you should be asking just how stupid are they in Brussels and why an organisation so moronic should have power over an entire continent of 400m people. Or maybe - call me cynical - but just maybe... the EU went along with it putting its own political goals before the economic reality. Y'know, just as they did with the Euro itself by moronically creating a monetary union without fiscal, banking or political union.

[The Don]

Yeah cos we all know to take these countries at their word. :rolleyes:

Huh? Are you saying that Turkey has met more than 1/35 of the targets necessary to join the EU since 1987?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Huh? Are you saying that Turkey has met more than 1/35 of the targets necessary to join the EU since 1987?

I'm saying when you say Greece lied about its economic situation to the European Union are you really as naive to think that the EU was stupid enough not to know that type of country's knack for making up dodgy figures? As I said, if it really did believe the Greeks and others then it only proves its [EU] dangerous stupidity.

And again as I said, maybe it is stupidity. After all, they created a monetary union without fiscal/banking/political union which would be like building the roof of your house before you've actually built the walls of the house. Either they're incredibly stupid, or, dangerous as they ignore realities in favour of their blind utopianism.

I personally opt for dangerous given how despite the absolute disaster they've caused, they continue onwards pushing for "more Europe" aka more power.

[The Don]

I'm saying when you say Greece lied about its economic situation to the European Union are you really as naive to think that the EU was stupid enough not to know that type of country's knack for making up dodgy figures? As I said, if it really did believe the Greeks and others then it only proves its [EU] dangerous stupidity.

And again as I said, maybe it is stupidity. After all, they created a monetary union without fiscal/banking/political union which would be like building the roof of your house before you've actually built the walls of the house. Either they're incredibly stupid, or, dangerous as they ignore realities in favour of their blind utopianism.

... Ok?

Doesn't change the fact that since Turkey applied to join the EU 29 years ago (technically it's predecessor...) they've only managed to meet 1 of the 35 objectives for joining. You're intelligent enough to know they aren't suddenly going to meet the other 34 within a couple of years, it's a nonissue.

[-:Undertaker:-]

... Ok?

Doesn't change the fact that since Turkey applied to join the EU 29 years ago (technically it's predecessor...) they've only managed to meet 1 of the 35 objectives for joining. You're intelligent enough to know they aren't suddenly going to meet the other 34 within a couple of years, it's a nonissue.

Other countries have done or have claimed to have done and have thus joined.

If it is a non-issue then why does Mr Cameron, leader of your campaign, not pledge to veto it? And why are they extending visa free travel?

See, this is the problem with this whole debate. You know Turkey as a candidate member is in the process of joining and that the European institutions along with British Government want it to join, but you also know how unpopular the thought of opening our borders up to 80 million Turks would be. So like Mr Cameron, you're sitting here trying to convince me otherwise that Turkey isn't going to join when it's a candidate country, when leaked cables are discussing visa free access to over 1m Turks after the referendum, when the EU is accelerating Turkish membership talks and extending visa free travel as the beginning of this and Mr Cameron himself is on record multiple times saying how he's Turkey's strongest supporter for joining.

It may not be joining tomorrow, next year or for two years. But it is going to join. Why can't Remain + the PM admit this so we can have an honest debate?

[The Don]

Other countries have done or have claimed to have done and have thus joined.

If it is a non-issue then why does Mr Cameron, leader of your campaign, not pledge to veto it? And why are they extending visa free travel?

See, this is the problem with this whole debate. You know Turkey as a candidate member is in the process of joining and that the European institutions along with British Government want it to join, but you also know how unpopular the thought of opening our borders up to 80 million Turks would be. So like Mr Cameron, you're sitting here trying to convince me otherwise that Turkey isn't going to join when it's a candidate country, when leaked cables are discussing visa free access to over 1m Turks after the referendum, when the EU is accelerating Turkish membership talks and extending visa free travel as the beginning of this and Mr Cameron himself is on record multiple times saying how he's Turkey's strongest supporter for joining.

No, I have never said "they are not joining" so i'd appreciate it if you didn't lie, I literally said in my first post "It would be wrong to say they're definitely never going to join". They are attempting to join. That is a fact. They have only met 1 out of the 35 targets necessary to join the EU in the past 29 years. That is a fact. They aren't magically going to be in the EU tomorrow, they are a long, long way from meeting the requirements to become a member of the EU. They then have to have their accession approved by all the leaders of the 28 EU countries. Turkey being a member of the EU is a nonissue as it's simply not going to happen for an incredibly long time, if ever.

[-:Undertaker:-]

It is an issue because it is in the process of joining, we're already shovelling money into it for it to join and we're about to grant it visa free travel.

You just don't *want* it to be an issue because it is unpopular for you to address. Why doesn't Cameron just say he'd veto it?

[The Don]

It is an issue because it is in the process of joining, we're already shovelling money into it for it to join and we're about to grant it visa free travel.

You just don't *want* it to be an issue because it is unpopular for you to address. Why doesn't Cameron just say he'd veto it?

Erm excuse me? Are you saying we are giving Turkey money through the EU?

[-:Undertaker:-]

I've just seen a clip of a passionate speech on Facebook I have never seen before. Blown away by it.

The late Peter Thorpe (Labour) with Barbara Castle sitting behind him. Amazing.

https://www.facebook.com/812707315509772/videos/969713003142535/

"Fear, fear, fear"


Erm excuse me? Are you saying we are giving Turkey money through the EU?

Indeed.

http://avrupa.info.tr/eu-funding-in-turkey/which-are-the-priorities.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35486655


Turkey has been receiving pre-accession assistance from the EU since 2001, under the Turkish Financial Instrument. Funds are programmed on an annual basis under National Programmes for each year. As from 2007, this pre-accession Financial Instrument for Turkey has been replaced by the Instrument for Pre-Accession Assistance (IPA) which provides pre-accession assistance for both candidate and potential candidate countries.

[scottish]

I've just seen a clip of a passionate speech on Facebook I have never seen before. Blown away by it.

The late Peter Thorpe (Labour) with Barbara Castle sitting behind him. Amazing.

https://www.facebook.com/812707315509772/videos/969713003142535/

"Fear, fear, fear"



Indeed.

http://avrupa.info.tr/eu-funding-in-turkey/which-are-the-priorities.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35486655

couldn't of been any use if we voted to remain a few days later?

[-:Undertaker:-]

couldn't of been any use if we voted to remain a few days later?

Back then the country was one that had lost confidence in itself. It's a different ball game now.

Thorpe's speech gave me goosebumps there. It may be 40 years old, but my god does it still apply today.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Here's the short clip embedded of Labour's Peter Shore back in 1975. Remarkable that exactly the same arguments still apply all these years later.

I've always said that it was Old Labour - the democratic left - that own this issue, long before the likes of Mrs Thatcher joined the fight in the 1990s.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j-Gb8Pk2Pk&feature=youtu.be

[Zak]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36526298 lol

[-:Undertaker:-]

More cheeky hints from the Queen where she stands....

She's in Liverpool tomorrow too and I am going to see her for the first time, finally!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/21/queen-asks-guests-to-give-her-3-reasons-why-britain-should-remai/

EU referendum: Queen asks guests to give her three reasons why Britain should remain in the EU

Revelation fuels rumours that the Queen personally favours Britain's departure from the European Union


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/06/12/100474336_queen-xlarge_trans++-ENWgDtJ141nMZEcdxZvJrT5LfTkYhqvBvjfatlPy1M.jpg
The Queen is politically neutral but is still privately debating Britain's membership of the EU


The Queen has been canvassing opinion on the EU debate by asking dinner companions: "Give me three good reasons why Britain should be part of Europe."

Her Majesty's biographer, Robert Lacey, reported the Queen's comments and suggested they may mean the Queen favours withdrawal from the European Union.

Buckingham Palace would neither confirm nor deny that the Queen had been debating the merits of Brexit in private, but royal sources pointed out that the words attributed to the Queen were "a question not a statement".

However the leading nature of the alleged question adds weight to previous claims that the Queen would like Britain to pull out of the EU.

[The Don]

More cheeky hints from the Queen where she stands....

She's in Liverpool tomorrow too and I am going to see her for the first time, finally!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/21/queen-asks-guests-to-give-her-3-reasons-why-britain-should-remai/

EU referendum: Queen asks guests to give her three reasons why Britain should remain in the EU

Revelation fuels rumours that the Queen personally favours Britain's departure from the European Union


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/06/12/100474336_queen-xlarge_trans++-ENWgDtJ141nMZEcdxZvJrT5LfTkYhqvBvjfatlPy1M.jpg
The Queen is politically neutral but is still privately debating Britain's membership of the EU

but royal sources pointed out that the words attributed to the Queen were "a question not a statement".


Clutching at straws dangan

[-:Undertaker:-]

Absolutely stunning when Boris at the end of that debate said let's stop bowing down to Brussels and make the 24th Britain's independence day.

He got a standing ovation and cheers from the audience. Finally a politician who BELIEVES that this country can do so so much better instead of talking it down.


http://www.ezimba.com/work/160622C/ezimba18991726601200.jpg

[-:Undertaker:-]

Boris closing speech with a standing ovation..

745358333175959554

[abc]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClgLBpRWYAAETze.jpg:large

Twins. Same ideas: Brexit. Both lunatics. Both selfish. Don't listen to maniacs.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Twins. Same ideas: BREXIT. Both lunatics. Both selfish. Don't listen to bigots.

Ahhh dirty character attacks from a Remain supporter. It's all they have left.

We don't feel the need to insult Davies, O'Grady or Khan because we can win on the arguments.

[abc]

Ahhh dirty character attacks from a Remain supporter. It's all they have left.

We don't feel the need to insult Davies, O'Grady or Khan because we can win on the arguments.
Oh Dan, all you have is Slogans and quotes from the 1800's.

[The Don]

Let's not forget that in the Scottish referendum the polls were neck and neck up until the last minute (a difference of only a few points), and what happened? Remain won by 10%. The same will happen here, for leave to have a chance they would need a solid lead at this point, not scraping a 1-2% difference. I could be completely wrong but i'm feeling a bit more confident that the public will see sense and vote remain.

[wixard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxDwxNcURTU

boris johnson zip lining out of the eu


disclaimer: i really like boris as a person x but i just don't agree with anything he says

[lemons]

the highlight of the debate for me was tim farron being shady towards gove

[abc]

Let's not forget that in the Scottish referendum the polls were neck and neck up until the last minute (a difference of only a few points), and what happened? Remain won by 10%. The same will happen here, for leave to have a chance they would need a solid lead at this point, not scraping a 1-2% difference. I could be completely wrong but i'm feeling a bit more confident that the public will see sense and vote remain.

Pound became much stronger today suggesting experts predict a REMAIN result.

[Red]

I swear half of n.irelands leave voters are in France lmao. Only cought the end of debate so will have to catch up tomorrow.

[Lucy]

Boris closing speech with a standing ovation..

745358333175959554

Some people hate this guy but I actually really like him, it's refreshing :)

[Lewis]

Whatever the outcome is, I feel like it's going to be a lot closer than the scottish independence one.

[scottish]

Whatever the outcome is, I feel like it's going to be a lot closer than the scottish independence one.

i don't.

remain has already won dw

[lemons]

yea i think it will be just like the scottish referendum

[abc]

It is predicted if we leave, GBP to USD will fall from 1.47 to 1.10. This will destroy our economy, kill jobs, increase prices. We would be MAD to leave.

[Jssy]

I swear half of n.irelands leave voters are in France lmao. Only cought the end of debate so will have to catch up tomorrow.
My auntie emigrated to canada years ago but still gets sent voting things as she's a british national and her and her husband have voted leave, yet now they're never coming back to live here it won't affect them anyway

[Red]

My auntie emigrated to canada years ago but still gets sent voting things as she's a british national and her and her husband have voted leave, yet now they're never coming back to live here it won't affect them anyway
They are just over for the euros though and doubt many would have been prepared and voted with a postal. I'm voting leave. I think any economic impact will be short term. Do have to raise eyebrows at those thinking the country is going to fall to pieces. You can witness first hand here the pressure immigration has caused with doctor appointment times and lack of school places, so that is my main reason for wanting to leave.

[lemons]

lol just got a leave leaflet through the door saying that my street is one of the most likely to vote leave

had some info bashing turkey joining the eu which is ironic considering about 80% of my neighbours are turkish

[The Don]

They are just over for the euros though and doubt many would have been prepared and voted with a postal. I'm voting leave. I think any economic impact will be short term. Do have to raise eyebrows at those thinking the country is going to fall to pieces. You can witness first hand here the pressure immigration has caused with doctor appointment times and lack of school places, so that is my main reason for wanting to leave.

"Northern Ireland had the UK's lowest immigration rate with just 2,200 more people arriving from abroad in a year than emigrating, according to official figures. "
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-ireland-has-uks-lowest-immigration-rate-31331243.html

Any perceived effect of immigration you're feeling will have more to do with austerity imposed after the recession than immigrants.

[Red]

"Northern Ireland had the UK's lowest immigration rate with just 2,200 more people arriving from abroad in a year than emigrating, according to official figures. "
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-ireland-has-uks-lowest-immigration-rate-31331243.html

Any perceived effect of immigration you're feeling will have more to do with austerity imposed after the recession than immigrants.
You can quote those figures but that's just not what I'm or other people are seeing with our own eyes! We have a lot of Polish/Eastern Europeans in my area due to a factory close by. A few polish shops in town, my neighbours are polish. My old primary school has huge numbers too. Why do they deserve a school place when people here can't even get their own kids into their first choice?

[The Don]

You can quote those figures but that's just not what I'm or other people are seeing with our own eyes! We have a lot of Polish/Eastern Europeans in my area due to a factory close by. A few polish shops in town, my neighbours are polish. My old primary school has huge numbers too. Why do they deserve a school place when people here can't even get their own kids into their first choice?

It's simply not possible to refute arguments based on anecdotal evidence. From the official figures I just don't see how a 0.1% increase in population is the worse alternative to the economic uncertainty a leave vote will have.

[lemons]

anyone think cameron will resign if we do vote leave?

[-:Undertaker:-]

You can quote those figures but that's just not what I'm or other people are seeing with our own eyes!

That's the problem the Remain campaign have. In the likes of Camden, Islington and other out of touch areas where politicians live: immigration is great for cheap waiters, cheap nannies, cheap cleaners - you name it. But they're not the ones who have their wages compressed by uncontrolled immigration. They're not the ones who have to fight for school places. They're not the ones who have to wait weeks to see a Doctor. They tell people that what they see with their own eyes is wrong.

Immigration is fine as long as it's controlled. I think if we Vote Leave tomorrow and get control of the borders again then it'll become a non-issue.


It is predicted if we leave, GBP to USD will fall from 1.47 to 1.10. This will destroy our economy, kill jobs, increase prices. We would be MAD to leave.

ZzZzzzzz boring. David Cameron said the same thing at the General Election if we voted Labour.

If we Vote Leave tomorrow and take back control, you know what'll happen? absolutely nothing. Besides, leaving takes 2 years negotiations anyway.

659049012302073856

[The Don]

That's the problem the Remain campaign have. In the likes of Camden, Islington and other out of touch areas where politicians live: immigration is great for cheap waiters, cheap nannies, cheap cleaners - you name it. But they're not the ones who have their wages compressed by uncontrolled immigration. They're not the ones who have to fight for school places. They're not the ones who have to wait weeks to see a Doctor. They tell people that what they see with their own eyes is wrong.

Immigration is fine as long as it's controlled. I think if we Vote Leave tomorrow and get control of the borders again then it'll become a non-issue.



ZzZzzzzz boring. David Cameron said the same thing at the General Election if we voted Labour.

659049012302073856

What a load of bullshit. I come from a council house in Bristol, not Islington. The polls are pretty evenly split on this, half the population are not the rich elites you're attempting to classify them as. It's nice and easy to paint the remain camp with the same brush yet when someone points out that all BNP voters are backing brexit suddenly it's "Don't generalise us, they're just a minority!".

- - - Updated - - -


anyone think cameron will resign if we do vote leave?

He'll probably be forced out, I don't see how his party could have any faith in him as their leader.

[-:Undertaker:-]

@The Don (https://www.habboxforum.com/member.php?u=9475);

There's a real disconnect between the working class of this country and the media/political elite. No matter how many times people register how their towns are struggling to cope with a mass influx of people, the politicians either fob us off as racists or come up with some flim flam about investing more or austerity. The fact is that people can *see* their local services being overwhelmed and we're fed up of being told that we're being bigoted or that it's just a figment of our imagination. Time for control. If we Remain, this issue is only going to fester and get worse as we're denied the democratic right to control the numbers coming in.

As a young guy I would like to buy a house someday, a decent sized house. When immigration is running at 300,000+ a year it is pricing me out of the market.

[The Don]

The Don;

I'm sorry but it is true. There's a real disconnect between the working class of this country and the media/political elite. No matter how many times people register how their towns are struggling to cope with a mass influx of people, the politicians either fob us off as racists or come up with some flim flam about investing more or austerity.

As a young guy I would like to buy a house someday, a decent sized house. When immigration is running at 300,000+ a year it is pricing me out of the market.

The same type of generalization you're making when you claim everyone backing remain is an elite from Islington.
Almost half the population back remain in the polls. Half the population. Don't paint us all with the same brush to score cheap points or as some lame attempt to validate your "concerns" over immigration as if you're the little-man who is affected by it whilst we peer down at you cackling from our ivory towers.

You've already admitted why you really want Brexit, and the reason wasn't immigration. You can feign concern all you want, but I don't buy it.

[-:Undertaker:-]

@The Don (https://www.habboxforum.com/member.php?u=9475);

I guarantee that if we vote to Leave, within six months afterwards a very large majority will have swung to the Leave side. There's a lot of people out there who have/are voting Remain who absolutely want out and feel no love towards the European Union, but who are sadly swayed by the scaremongering telling them they're all going to lose their jobs. If we do Leave and absolutely nothing happens, the scaremongering bs will look laughable in the light of day.

It's like Norway. They narrowly rejected the EU in the 1990s, and now opinion polls show them 70%+ against joining the EU. It's voter stockholm syndrome.

Would we vote to join the EU now if we were outside with Norway, Switzerland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand? Not a chance.

[The Don]

-:Undertaker:-;
Well I disagree with your speculation.

The polls at the moment aren't looking too promising for the leave campaign, a 1-2% lead isn't much, especially with undecided's tending to vote in favour of the status quo.

[FlyingJesus]

Just gonna leave this tasty little quote from Juncker with regards to the whole "better to stay so we can renegotiate from within" argument:


British voters have to know that there will be no kind of renegotiation. We have concluded a deal with the prime minister. He got the maximum he could receive and we gave the maximum we could give. So there will be no renegotiation, not on the agreement we found in February, nor as far as any kind of treaty negotiations are concerned.

[The Don]

Just gonna leave this tasty little quote from Juncker with regards to the whole "better to stay so we can renegotiate from within" argument:

"Theres a difference between reforming the EU and Cameron extracting concessions solely for the UK's benefit. The EU is also more than just Juncker too."

[-:Undertaker:-]

"Theres a difference between reforming the EU and Cameron extracting concessions solely for the UK's benefit. The EU is also more than just Juncker too."

They've said no reform. No, non, nein!

Cameron's renegotiation was a joke. Once we've voted Remain what can we then say? That we'll Leave? They're going to take us for the ride of our lives.

[The Don]

They've said no reform. No, non, nein!

Cameron's renegotiation was a joke. Once we've voted Remain what can we then say? That we'll Leave? They're going to take us for the ride of our lives.

It's like you didn't read a word of the post you quoted.

[-:Undertaker:-]

It's like you didn't read a word of the post you quoted.

Oh I read it alright.

I love it when people talk about reform of the EU, as they have of the last 40+ years. Reform what exactly and go about reforming it how? *deathly silence*

If we couldn't secure not one meaningful reform with the threat of leaving, we're not going to secure anything inside. Indeed the opposite is true, that, since [if] we decided to stay they then know that there's nothing Britain can really do. We can't say we'll Leave because we voted Remain. Then what?

[The Don]

Oh I read it alright.

I love it when people talk about reform of the EU, as they have of the last 40+ years. Reform what exactly and go about reforming it how? *deathly silence*

If we couldn't secure not one meaningful reform with the threat of leaving, we're not going to secure anything inside. Indeed the opposite is true, that, since [if] we decided to stay they then know that there's nothing Britain can really do. We can't say we'll Leave because we voted Remain. Then what?

We've now got an exemption from further political union. You can make up stuff all you want, it doesn't make you any less wrong.

[-:Undertaker:-]

We've now got an exemption from further political union. You can make up stuff all you want, it doesn't make you any less wrong.

No we have not.

The treaties have not been amended so the ECJ will not interpret EU law like that. What Mr Cameron says to us vs the legality of the treaties are two entirely different things. We were told all this garbage back in 1975. It's the same dishonesty of an industrial-scale spewing out once again.

Had Britain secured an opt-out from the ECU treaty clause then the treaties would have been amended or we'd have joined the EEA.

[The Don]

No we have not.

The treaties have not been amended so the ECJ will not interpret EU law like that. What Mr Cameron says to us vs the legality of the treaties are two entirely different things. We were told all this garbage back in 1975. It's the same dishonesty of an industrial-scale spewing out once again.

Had Britain secured an opt-out from ECU then the treaties would have been amended or we'd have joined the EEA.

They haven't been amended yet, they are guaranteed to us though. As Cameron said, they are waiting until after the vote to update any treaties.

[The Don]

The British Flag on display in Warsaw, Poland in support of remain.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClgCJtCWYAEhhQs.jpg

[-:Undertaker:-]

They haven't been amended yet, they are guaranteed to us though. As Cameron said, they are waiting until after the vote to update any treaties.

Hahaha okay then. A cast-iron guarantee at that I bet.


The British Flag on display in Warsaw, Poland in support of remain.

Poland for sure don't want us to Leave. Who would step in to replace the money milk cow of Europe if Britain left?

We're just one big cash cow for them all. Next up for billions in British taxpayer funds? Albania! Serbia! Montenegro! Turkey!

[FlyingJesus]

They haven't been amended yet, they are guaranteed to us though. As Cameron said, they are waiting until after the vote to update any treaties.

Are these the treaties that Juncker said will not be renegotiated at all ever

[The Don]

Are these the treaties that Juncker said will not be renegotiated at all ever


Did you not even read what you quoted? "We have concluded a deal with the prime minister. He got the maximum he could receive and we gave the maximum we could give. So there will be no renegotiation, not on the agreement we found in February, nor as far as any kind of treaty negotiations are concerned."
Clearly Juncker here is saying the EU is going to honor the deal cameron struck but there won't be any further deals which will modify EU treaties. The treaties haven't been modified yet to include Britain's opt-out from any further political integration because they are waiting until after the referendum incase it's not necessary.

[-:Undertaker:-]

If this Juncker bloke, being a politician, doesn't do what he promises then... can I vote him out?

[FlyingJesus]

Did you not even read what you quoted? "We have concluded a deal with the prime minister. He got the maximum he could receive and we gave the maximum we could give. So there will be no renegotiation, not on the agreement we found in February, nor as far as any kind of treaty negotiations are concerned."
Clearly Juncker here is saying the EU is going to honor the deal cameron struck but there won't be any further deals which will modify EU treaties. The treaties haven't been modified yet to include Britain's opt-out from any further political integration because they are waiting until after the referendum incase it's not necessary.

Which part of "nor as far as any kind of treaty negotiations are concerned" is difficult to understand here? The treaties haven't been modified and Juncker's saying they won't be

[The Don]

Which part of "nor as far as any kind of treaty negotiations are concerned" is difficult to understand here? The treaties haven't been modified and Juncker's saying they won't be
I'm pretty sure he's saying there won't be further treaty negotiations, not that the treaties won't be updated to reflect cameron's deal. They would have to be otherwise the deal wouldn't be official?

[FlyingJesus]

That's great noise and all but it doesn't change the fact that we'll have no further power to renegotiate a single thing or do the whole "change from within" thing that has (apart from calling everyone Hitler and pretending that Farage is going to run the country if we leave) been one of the biggest parts of the Remain campaign

But yeah also the deal isn't official, they could easily wait until we're stuck with them and say "jk lol here's what you have to do now" the same way they did previously when we were promised that the amounts paid into the EU from here wouldn't increase

[The Don]

That's great noise and all but it doesn't change the fact that we'll have no further power to renegotiate a single thing or do the whole "change from within" thing that has (apart from calling everyone Hitler and pretending that Farage is going to run the country if we leave) been one of the biggest parts of the Remain campaign

renegotiate != reform

Juncker is very clearly explaining that the UK won’t be able to further negotiate it’s special status in Europe, not that there’s no possibility to reform the EU through new legislation as that’s literally the very nature of a parliament passing new laws.



But yeah also the deal isn't official, they could easily wait until we're stuck with them and say "jk lol here's what you have to do now" the same way they did previously when we were promised that the amounts paid into the EU from here wouldn't increase

Ah, baseless conjecture. Don’t you usually criticize Dan for these types of comments? They could turn around tomorrow and make Juncker the supreme leader of Europe . They won’t do either of those things as it would destroy any credibility they have in the public’s eye.

[FlyingJesus]

If they won't allow anyone to question them a little bit about the terms why would they agree to major reforms? Especially if the country giving them trouble over it votes to stick with what we've got?

And no it's not what Dan does because I haven't said that they will do that or even that I think they will, it's just a correction to the assumption that the deal is ratified and set in stone

[-:Undertaker:-]

They did the same a few years back with the CAP. Tony Blair gave up part of our rebate in exchange for a promise of reforming the CAP. So they took the rebate, looked at reforming the debate and then told us to drop dead as nothing was changing.

If we do Remain it'll only be a few weeks until @The Don (https://www.habboxforum.com/member.php?u=9475); and others have to start explaining why the EU is still acquiring powers via the Commission and the ECJ when they told us we had a promised opt-out. We know already the EU is looking at direct tax proposals & forming an army/banking union. The EU doesn't take No for an answer.

745648793098420224

[The Don]

They did the same a few years back with the CAP. Tony Blair gave up part of our rebate in exchange for a promise of reforming the CAP. So they took the rebate, looked at reforming the debate and then told us to drop dead as nothing was changing.

If we do Remain it'll only be a few weeks until @The Don (https://www.habboxforum.com/member.php?u=9475); and others have to start explaining why the EU is still acquiring powers via the Commission and the ECJ when they told us we had a promised opt-out. We know already the EU is looking at direct tax proposals & forming an army/banking union. The EU doesn't take No for an answer.

745648793098420224

Nope, my EU posting is at an end with this referendum. I only really started again recently to provide an alternative perspective to yours so that current affairs didn't become your own personal little speaker box.

[FlyingJesus]

Gonna go get a Wetherspoons breakfast because I'm well posh like that and then I'll go vote. Fully expecting a victory for Remain tbh, largely because people who aren't 100% sure what they want are more likely to vote that way. Still miracles can happen I mean I was born

[The Don]

Just got back from voting. About 5 people there, two different groups, they all had remain badges on which was nice to see. The only person campaigning there was this little old lady sat outside handing out these remain leaflets:

http://i.imgur.com/zuN61qk.jpg

I was surprised because this is quite a pro-brexit predicted area.


Gonna go get a Wetherspoons breakfast because I'm well posh like that and then I'll go vote. Fully expecting a victory for Remain tbh, largely because people who aren't 100% sure what they want are more likely to vote that way. Still miracles can happen I mean I was born

Of course it had to be Wetherspoons, with their bloody brexit beer mats

[FlyingJesus]

Do they really have Brexit beer mats hahaha oh dear maybe I'll go McDonald's instead and support the immigrants

[Circadia]

I cant vote because i didnt realise i was on holiday and i didnt do a postal vote... but im just gonna leave this here 😂

http://i.imgur.com/JiIhSQv.jpg

[lemons]

VOTED! was quite empty

745916960228139008

[Inseriousity.]

I know akeem is and I am too. who else is staying up and watching the results? we can have a hx liveblog lolol #hxnerds

[buttons]

I know akeem is and I am too. who else is staying up and watching the results? we can have a hx liveblog lolol #hxnerds
what time does it start? i'll be up 5:30am and at work 6:15 so i'll check when i get up then be able to catch the news until about 8am

i voted at 4pm, just a couple there voting but no compaigners or any posters (as compared to the election) but they did say there had been a good turn out

[Inseriousity.]

Starts at ten and goes all the way til 6am (and probably beyond tbh). Pulling an all nighter to watch the results come in lmao.

[thms]

voted this morning and went back with my mother! the man behind the desk was like woahh mate ur a bit keen trying to vote again! BANTER X


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqH21LEmfbQ

[Martin]

I know akeem is and I am too. who else is staying up and watching the results? we can have a hx liveblog lolol #hxnerds


Starts at ten and goes all the way til 6am (and probably beyond tbh). Pulling an all nighter to watch the results come in lmao.


I was going to (as I'm normally up late anyway) but I've read the first results don't come until 4am?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/23/when-are-the-eu-referendum-results-what-time-will-we-know-the-wi/


When will I find out how my area voted?


4am, Wales (22 counting areas)


4am, Northern Ireland (18 counting areas)


5am, North East (12 counting areas)


5am, Scotland (17 counting areas)


5am, London (33 counting areas)


5am, Yorkshire & Humber (21 counting areas)


6am, West Midlands (30 counting areas


6.30am, East Midlands (40 counting areas)


6.30am, South West (38 counting areas)


7am, Eastern (46 counting areas)


7am, North West (39 counting areas)


7am, South Eastern (68 counting areas)

[Inseriousity.]

First result is half 12 (Sunderland/Newcastle) and then they pour in from then. It's 2 and a half hours of waffling but it gets more interesting after that
That list is probably when the whole region has been counted rather than the individual places.

[Martin]

First result is half 12 (Sunderland/Newcastle) and then they pour in from then. It's 2 and a half hours of waffling but it gets more interesting after that
That list is probably when the whole region has been counted rather than the individual places.

Ohhhhhhhh!! Yes it says regional announcements! I'm guessing all the towns/cities in each region declare on their own too then! THAT'S MUCH MORE INTERESTING WOO!

[thms]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClpcewYWAAAwKtQ.jpg

[RyRy]

I cant vote because i didnt realise i was on holiday and i didnt do a postal vote... but im just gonna leave this here http://i.imgur.com/JiIhSQv.jpg




It's also a vote for Nigel Farage, Vladmir Putin, Donald Trump and plenty of other unsavouries apparently.

Because that's how the democractic system works (well according to the EU maybe!)

I voted OUT for mainly because the EU will not reform with a Remain vote or without one, so we're stuck with the same old system unless we Leave.

The above patronisations just make me more certain I made the right decision.

[Cerys]

It's also a vote for Nigel Farage, Vladmir Putin, Donald Trump and plenty of other unsavouries apparently.

Because that's how the democractic system works (well according to the EU maybe!)

I voted OUT for mainly because the EU will not reform with a Remain vote or without one, so we're stuck with the same old system unless we Leave.

The above patronisations just make me more certain I made the right decision.


What's the new system we'll be going to if we left?

[RyRy]

What's the new system we'll be going to if we left?

I don't know, do you know what will change in the EU if we stayed?

[The Don]

[I]Because that's how the democractic system works (well according to the EU maybe!)

What does that even mean?

[RyRy]

What does that even mean?

It was a jab at EU officials being unelected by the public, but I'm sure you knew that and just need me to confirm it.

I'm also still waiting for somebody to tell me what's going to change if we remain in the EU, maybe you can help me with that?

[The Don]

It was a jab at EU officials being unelected by the public, but I'm sure you knew that and just need me to confirm it.

I'm also still waiting for somebody to tell me what's going to change if we remain in the EU, maybe you can help me with that?

Ah, so it was just you rambling and I hadn't missed any context.

You do realise the EU commission is the EU's equivalent to our own government's cabinet, which is also unelected? If you think the EU is undemocratic because of this, then you also think our own government is undemocratic. There seems to be a lot of misinformation spread about the EU commission. Yes, we don't vote for EU commissioners who act as the administrative body and draft laws/legislation. They are appointed by the leader of their country. This is exactly the same as the cabinet in the UK's government, we don't elect cabinet ministers who draft laws/legislation, they are appointed by the prime minister. If you think that the EU is undemocratic because we don't directly elect commissioners, then nor is our parliament.

[FlyingJesus]

Quite a lot will change - first off we'll lose all credibility and power since a Remain vote effectively legitimises the governance of GB by the EU leaders, and from there what changes comes down to "whatever they want"

Oh and of course the bratty fauxcialists on fb and twitter will have a big party pretending that they've defeated Bowser or something and prob come up with a few shitty hashtags to celebrate

[Yawn]

gna vote remain shortly

[abc]

im gna do work till 10pmish and try and wake up around 3-3:30am.

[Cerys]

Just voted :)

Was so busy in there, had actual queues!

[Martin]

Just voted :)

Was so busy in there, had actual queues!


Sameee! Everyone was saying how it's the first time they've ever seen queues outside of the polling station before, and apparently it's been like it all day! :O Must be a good turnout!

[Chris]

My parents did a proxy vote for me as I'm away from home. Voted leave!

[Martin]

My parents did a proxy vote for me as I'm away from home. Voted leave!

Yasssss! Same!

[The Don]

Had to make a separate thread in order to add the poll.

I'm curious to see how you all voted today in the referendum. Don't have to publicly share which way you voted as I know a lot of people are private about these sorts of things.

Thread merged by Chris (Forum Moderator): As a thread already exists for the EU Referendum.

[Red]

Can't believe how busy our polling station was, usually its dead. Voted leave :)

[FlyingJesus]

Some people I know are teachers and seeing them discuss how delighted they are with themselves at indoctrinating the primary-age kids about what the "right" voting option is is disgusting. They've done mock voting in class and seem really proud that most of the kids chose the option that they told them was the good one

[myles]

voted remain. cant even believe that it has come to this tbh
i cant even look at my parents the same anymore as they are voting to leave..

[Lewis]

Some people I know are teachers and seeing them discuss how delighted they are with themselves at indoctrinating the primary-age kids about what the "right" voting option is is disgusting. They've done mock voting in class and seem really proud that most of the kids chose the option that they told them was the good one

well I've never quoted Hitler before but it reminded me of this... (whether they were doing it for remain/leave, remain I assume though?)

"He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future."

[buttons]

i don't talk about my vote because it feels like the scottish referendum all over again. "if you vote ___ you're XYZ!!!". really puts me off considering your point of view if you just insult me.

[abc]

Although Forum Management found this amusing, they were too chicken to make it a reality *shakes my head in shame*

http://i67.tinypic.com/kqfjn.jpg

[The Don]

Although Forum Management found this amusing, they were too chicken to make it a reality *shakes my head in shame*

http://i67.tinypic.com/kqfjn.jpg

oh my god, that would have been hilarious hahahaha

[lemons]

will there be any on-client chatter in hxhd or elsewhere i might make a rare appearance if so

[myles]

will there be any on-client chatter in hxhd or elsewhere i might make a rare appearance if so

come online anyway

[The Don]

will there be any on-client chatter in hxhd or elsewhere i might make a rare appearance if so

me, Red;, Inseriousity.; or was it Intersocial; and I thinkkkk -:Undertaker:-; were online for the scottish referendum

i'll come on if other people are online

[Cerys]

yes i'm online lets all have a chit chat about it

[Inseriousity.]

I wasn't online for the scottish one but I'll be here for this one. Won't be on Habbo though. Will stick to facebook, bbc iplayer and this thread lol

[j0rd]

my polling station was literally a portaloo
like the habbo ones

[myles]

i cant wait to see the results this is gonna be interesting :)

[scottish]

Had to make a separate thread in order to add the poll.

I'm curious to see how you all voted today in the referendum. Don't have to publicly share which way you voted as I know a lot of people are private about these sorts of things.

Thread merged by Chris (Forum Moderator): As a thread already exists for the EU Referendum.

isn't that illegal?

1983 representation of the people act says you can't publish before the poll is closed a) any statement relating to the way in which voters have voted at an election where that statement is based on info given by voters after they have voted

[David]

where is the didn't vote option

[Lewis]

Win 1 month of dbgtz's vip, my gold bar & 500 tokens + 50 rep from Samanfa if you correctly guess the percentage results for leave/remain

https://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=836818 :)

[abc]

Faisal Islam twitter "Breaking: exclusive @skynews/ Yougov poll of 3000 today has Remain at 52: Leave at 48 - NOT an exit poll"

UKIP leader Nigel Farage has told Sky News:

It’s been an extraordinary referendum campaign, turnout looks to be exceptionally high and looks like Remain will edge it.

[lemons]

everyone come to the helpdesk

[FlyingJesus]

well I've never quoted Hitler before but it reminded me of this... (whether they were doing it for remain/leave, remain I assume though?)

"He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future."

They were remain voters yeah but utterly disgusting abuse of power whatever they're forcing on these poor kids, anyone who tries pushing a stance on someone using "this is the right way!!!" instead of real facts is in the wrong

[The Don]

How I feel right now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVktgs2gih4

[Cerys]

At 2:30 it all seemed so hopeful.... now I just feel like eh ;/

I hope I wake up tomorrow and magically it all turned around but I don't reckon so, but it was nice having some fab people to chat about it with til now xo

[lemons]

Extremely sad day

[Lewis]

Looks like I'm the last man standing in hxhd. Everyone's left me :(

where's my lms prize

[MONEYMAGIC]

WE ARE OUT!!! Yessss

[Inseriousity.]

Damnit I was thinking 52% leave, 48% remain but didn't want to say because I was not really confident of a Leave victory. I should've had more faith :(

[Red]

I would have loved to stay up but I was seriously sleep deprived and was in bed from 8pm hahah. Got it on now though!

[abc]

Great Britain is Great no more. GBP to USD $1.34 and continuing to fall. Dan heres your proof that pound will fall like crazy.

[xxMATTGxx]

What a shit day.

[Alysha]

I'm actually really surprised by the Welsh result, I didn't think it'd be that one sided.
Oh well, time to see if this works or not now. I'm not convinced though, do they actually have a proper plan now?

[lemons]

do they actually have a proper plan now?

NO!

[-:Undertaker:-]

At the mere age of 23 it is quite something to have the one thing you care most about in the world come true. All I ever wanted was for our country to be sovereign, proudly independent, and a self-governing nation where when I went to vote at the ballot box: my vote actually counted for something (win or lose).

Tonight before the polls closed, I was thinking how there would be no point in voting anymore in the event of remaining within the European Union as that chance would have been given away at least for another decade. I did my part with leaflets, discussions and posters but I had a real fear that the British people would cling to the nurse when standing in the ballot box. Instead, tonight we've corrected a 40 year mistake and we're to finally disengage from a political union we were never intended to be in in the first place.

I would say though that for those of us who have secured independence today: we shouldn't laugh, insult or crow about this victory against those who thought different. There's real honour in showing humilty in victory and that's what is needed. I think that, as the months and years pass by and we leave, those who feared leaving will eventually come around to the idea that we should be confident enough to run our own affairs and manage ourselves in the world stage. We'll do just fine and we'll work just as well and as friendly with European nations as we will with the rest of the Commonwealth & globe.

Let's be confident of this country.



http://cdn.spectator.co.uk/content/uploads/2016/06/cover_180616_landscape.jpg

[lemons]

broken britain

[abc]

Unemployment in UK just increased as all British MEP's just lost their jobs. #ThankYouFarage #EUref #EURefResults

So now we will lose Scotland too? Nicola Sturgeon is having a massive party right now. #EUref #EURefResults

NIGEL FARAGE USED JO COX'S DEATH THIS MORNING TO MAKE AN EXCUSE FOR YOUGOV POLL. HE IS A DISGUSTING HUMAN.

[The Don]

I must be an idiot for having had a glimmer of hope in the British public. We've killed the idea of unity in Europe, fantastic.

-:Undertaker:-; It's been a nightmare having debated you all these years! I have enjoyed some of the discussions we've had, and it's definitely improved my grammar/writing. I said earlier that after the referendum I was done debating here, and I genuinely meant it.

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEjHUf7j0aFDce0dG/giphy.gif

[-:Undertaker:-]

The Don;

Thank you and I have enjoyed it too. :)

[dbgtz]

I can't wait to leave the EU simply to join the single market :) People are actually going to be so angry when they realise what that actually means.
Oh well not like the results will be honoured anyway.

[abc]

.

I'll be honest with you, a small part of me has always wanted to Leave but only a small part which does not think logically. The logical side of me voted Remain is because:

a) Pound will plummet - I was right
b) Freedom of Movement will not stop
c) We will still have to abide by the EU laws but have no say over them
d) We will still pay in to the EU

Why? Because that will be the easiest agreement for our politicians to make with EU and I do not trust our politicians or have any confidence in them.

[wixard]

watches the world burst into flames

oops!

[dbgtz]

The irony of leave winning to "claim back the country" is that the UK may well fall apart. Nice one.

[xxMATTGxx]

Scotland will definitely go.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I look forward to Nicola Sturgeon putting forward the case for Scotland to join the EU and adopt the Euro. That'll go down like a bag of cold sick.

[Stephen]

lol i voted out

feelz good

746186289863606272

[j0rd]

seems like the uneducated were out in force yesterday
shame

[scottish]

This thread was a lot quieter than I expected over night

[Stephen]

seems like the uneducated were out in force yesterday
shame

Fortunately I had the ballot paper which allowed the voter to choose :L

[Alysha]

HOW AGES VOTED
(YouGov poll)
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+: 39% Remain
#EUref

[ToxicMint]

HOW AGES VOTED
(YouGov poll)
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+: 39% Remain
#EUref

where is this based as if it is overall it cant be? because that means more voted to remain?

[scottish]

Rip the price of everything since gap to use is fucked

[Alkaz]

Surprised at the 72% turnout.