Conservative Party failure on immigration as it soars by 20%

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Originally Posted by Catzsy

No, Dan, immigration is the amount of people who have entered the country. The headline is not MIGRATION it is immigration. Again even you can see that this has not soared 20% in the last year. Also I am not sure how many illegals in are this country but that has nothing to do with with that report. That's a totally different issue.

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I'll be technical here and that as a proportion it has - the graph clearly shows that in terms of migration, that immigration has increased as a proportion by 20% due to emigration falling. I would side with you had the graph not been included as its playing with words, but its pretty clear.

But besides, you didn't answer whether you thought we should have controlled immigration.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I'll be technical here and that as a proportion it has - the graph clearly shows that in terms of migration, that immigration has increased as a proportion by 20% due to emigration falling. I would side with you had the graph not been included as its playing with words, but its pretty clear.

But besides, you didn't answer whether you thought we should have controlled immigration.

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Well that is just playing with the figures to suit your stance Dan and you know it. Tbh I haven't thought that much about whether or not it should be controlled as it is not really on my list of priorities right now. It maybe of interest to you but not to me. There are greater challenges to be sorted out there than this.

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Originally Posted by Catzsy

Well that is just playing with the figures to suit your stance Dan and you know it. Tbh I haven't thought that much about whether or not it should be controlled as it is not really on my list of priorities right now. It maybe of interest to you but not to me. There are greater challenges to be sorted out there than this.

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Try telling that to people who live in areas where the people don't speak English, or where teachers can't teach because there's ten different languages in the class. I'm pretty sure you've thought about it and your mostly fine about it, like most of the people who live away from it because they can afford to. As for the figures, the figures show its still rising (immigration) - I don't have to fiddle figures, unlike this and the last government.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Try telling that to people who live in areas where the people don't speak English, or where teachers can't teach because there's ten different languages in the class. I'm pretty sure you've thought about it and your mostly fine about it, like most of the people who live away from it because they can afford to. As for the figures, the figures show its still rising (immigration) - I don't have to fiddle figures, unlike this and the last government.

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Again personal in bold. Why do this all the time? I agree immigration might be rising but it is not the extremely exagerated 20% as quoted. I am confused as to why you mention children that cannot speak english. What actual negative significient effect does that have on our country or the people who live in the area? The teachers are paid to do a job and I am sure that there is help with the diversity of languages although I agree that adults should make the effort to learn the language and I am sure a lot of them do. It is only natural though they should want to speak their first language in their personal lives. This does not mean that they cannot speak english and I don't see a problem with that. I am sure britains who move away to a country with another language do that as well.

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Originally Posted by Catzsy

Again personal in bold. Why do this all the time?

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Of course its personal, you don't live near it yet advocate total uncontrolled immigration just like the political elite in the main three parties (with some exceptions). Yourself and the political class can't preach to me 'diversity' when you have no grasp of the problems people face with ghettoisation in their areas. I always find it funny that the people who advocate 'diversity' are never ever the ones who live in the midst of it.

To see how out of touch this is, see your question below.

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Originally Posted by Catzsy

I agree immigration might be rising but it is not the extremely exagerated 20% as quoted. I am confused as to why you mention children that cannot speak english. What actual negative significient effect does that have on our country or the people who live in the area?

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Is this a serious question? do I really have to mention the fact that it is near impossible to teach to a class which speaks ten or more languages? do I really have to mention the fact that ghettoisation of areas where English-speaking people feel increasingly alienated when most people around them cannot speak the native tongue?

I think you've just demonstrated just how far removed from reality you are.

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Originally Posted by Catzsy

The teachers are paid to do a job and I am sure that there is help with the diversity of languages although I agree that adults should make the effort to learn the language and I am sure a lot of them do. It is only natural though they should want to speak their first language in their personal lives. This does not mean that they cannot speak english and I don't see a problem with that. I am sure britains who move away to a country with another language do that as well.

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British ex-pats who do the same are just as bad, but none of our concern.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Of course its personal, you don't live near it yet advocate total uncontrolled immigration just like the political elite in the main three parties (with some exceptions). Yourself and the political class can't preach to me 'diversity' when you have no grasp of the problems people face with ghettoisation in their areas. I always find it funny that the people who advocate 'diversity' are never ever the ones who live in the midst of it.

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Where have I ever said I have supported 'uncontrolled immigration?

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To see how out of touch this is, see your question below.


Is this a serious question? do I really have to mention the fact that it is near impossible to teach to a class which speaks ten or more languages? do I really have to mention the fact that ghettoisation of areas where English-speaking people feel increasingly alienated when most people around them cannot speak the native tongue?

I think you've just demonstrated just how far removed from reality you are.

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I am in touch with reality, thanks. :P 98% of the population speak english. You know every child has to learn to a language. Parents teach their children every day. At a young age it comes easily to the child. If Teachers are faced with an out of proportion quota of non english speaking children then it is up to the education authority/local authority to provide them with help to overcome this. I live in a country where there are two languages - english and welsh and nobody feels alienated. Everyone has a right to speak in their native language in their personal lives and if anybody feels threatened by this then I believe they are somewhat paranoid. Personally I just feel this is not the issue - you just don't like immigration - fullstop.

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British ex-pats who do the same are just as bad, but none of our concern.

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Good enough for them but not good enough for us then. :P

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Originally Posted by Catzsy

Where have I ever said I have supported 'uncontrolled immigration?

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So you don't support the previous and present governments'/EU policy on immigration?

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Originally Posted by Catzsy

I am in touch with reality, thanks. :P 98% of the population speak english. You know every child has to learn to a language. Parents teach their children every day. At a young age it comes easily to the child. If Teachers are faced with an out of proportion quota of non english speaking children then it is up to the education authority/local authority to provide them with help to overcome this.

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Hang on, why should I pay for people to learn the language here?

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Originally Posted by Catzsy

I live in a country where there are two languages - english and welsh and nobody feels alienated. Everyone has a right to speak in their native language in their personal lives and if anybody feels threatened by this then I believe they are somewhat paranoid.

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But you know aswell as I do that English is the double language - I have not a problem with people being able to speak two languages, my problem is that areas of this country have become ghettoised to the point where the only language spoken is the native language and not English - who do you think people who are alone in these areas ('natives' or first generation immigrations) will turn to?

If such large numbers settle in a short space of time, the need for them to learn English is removed - this is a bad thing for reasons explained earlier.

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Originally Posted by Catzsy

Personally I just feel this is not the issue - you just don't like immigration - fullstop.

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I don't like uncontrolled immigration and I don't like its consquences of British culture being eroded along with tensions arising, no.

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Originally Posted by Catzsy

Good enough for them but not good enough for us then. :P

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Not really, most of these places with large English-only speaking areas are places like Spain which have no choice due to their membership of the European Union. This country however shouldn't settle for the worst.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

So you don't support the previous and present governments'/EU policy on immigration?

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I am not sure if the open immigration from the EU was a good idea. I feel maybe we should have taken a stronger stance on this. The illegal immigrant problem probably was not dealt with properly.

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Hang on, why should I pay for people to learn the language here?

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Because they are immigrants you mean? I think you will find that most immigrants pay taxes themselves but in any event if you want them to speak english then they need to be taught it.
Are you against special need tutors too as this is essentially a special need.

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But you know aswell as I do that English is the double language - I have not a problem with people being able to speak two languages, my problem is that areas of this country have become ghettoised to the point where the only language spoken is the native language and not English - who do you think people who are alone in these areas ('natives' or first generation immigrations) will turn to?

If such large numbers settle in a short space of time, the need for them to learn English is removed - this is a bad thing for reasons explained earlier.

I don't like uncontrolled immigration and I don't like its consquences of British culture being eroded along with tensions arising, no.

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Immigration was also very high in the 1950's and it has been shown that the 2nd and 3rd generation do speak english. You know if there were race riots and indeed a lot of tension nationwide I may agree with you to a certain extent that it should be looked into but this is just rhetoric with very little factual evidence to support it.

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Not really, most of these places with large English-only speaking areas are places like Spain which have no choice due to their membership of the European Union. This country however shouldn't settle for the worst.

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So it is okay for them but not okay for us as I said before. That's a bit hypocritical isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Catzsy

I am not sure if the open immigration from the EU was a good idea. I feel maybe we should have taken a stronger stance on this. The illegal immigrant problem probably was not dealt with properly.

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Indeed - it was actually planned out.

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Originally Posted by Catzsy

Because they are immigrants you mean? I think you will find that most immigrants pay taxes themselves but in any event if you want them to speak english then they need to be taught it.
Are you against special need tutors too as this is essentially a special need.

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I have much more of a problem paying for immigrants (who have not put into the system for a long period of time nor should be entitled to the benefits system for this reason) to learn the English language than I do for special needs tutors. I am rather concerned however that you are comparing genuinely disabled people to people who cannot speak the English language and want me to pay for it as a 'special need'. The mind boggles.

In terms of special needs, I don't think we should aim to pay for that either eventually - I would very much like everybody to keep the great proportion of what they earn (including the mothers and fathers of those children) so that they can allocate and spend it how they see fit - rather than how the government see's fit.

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Originally Posted by Catzsy

Immigration was also very high in the 1950's and it has been shown that the 2nd and 3rd generation do speak english. You know if there were race riots and indeed a lot of tension nationwide I may agree with you to a certain extent that it should be looked into but this is just rhetoric with very little factual evidence to support it.

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There is a lot of tension nationwide in these areas Rosie, I know a area in Liverpool itself which has had all the 'natives' move out (including first and second generation immigrants who are just as British as I am) because the area has been totally ghettoised into differing areas. It is also an area which has experienced riots in the past as a result of people not integrating properly and feeling 'on the outside' - whilst immigration is done in such large numbers, this will occur.

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Originally Posted by Catzsy

So it is okay for them but not okay for us as I said before. That's a bit hypocritical isn't it?

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What Spain should decide its immigration policy is is upto Spain itself, Spain is a sovereign nation (at least in theory) and is entitled to do whatever it should wish regarding its borders - personally if I were Spanish I would feel exactly the same with British ghetto's springing up often with accompanying antics of drunken and foolish behaviour - but i'm not concerned about Spain here, i'm concerned about the United Kingdom and what state our cities are in. The first step however, as always, is to leave the European Union.