of course i understand the concept, but you've ignored my posts on how he denied the holocaustQuote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
what's your opinion on that then??
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of course i understand the concept, but you've ignored my posts on how he denied the holocaustQuote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
what's your opinion on that then??
Threatening someone and freedom of speech are totally different things, the British National Party have not threatened anyone. As shown by your first line which says anyone who sides with the BNP is in your words 'unstable' - shows yet again that if anybody dares disagree with the left they are automatically rascist, crazy, homophobic, xenphobic or evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
That is freedom of speech, they have not threatened anybody so they are entitled to say what policies they would lay down if they gained office. I find some of Labours' policies disgusting and unjust, but I accept their right to speak openly about them, just like I accept the right of the BNP too.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
I have not ignored your posts on holocaust denial, you may be attempting to trip me over with the same questioning I trip you over with, but I have answered it clearly before; I don't agree with him but I agree with his right to an opinion on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardemax
how dare he have an opinion to deny such an event? ... :SQuote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
You have just basically said to me 'how dare he have an opinion different to mine' - that is the line Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Amin, Mugabe, Lenin all hold/held central to their hearts, at the cost of democracy and hundreds of millions of lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardemax
I'm sorry, but I don't believe i said that.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
You then compare me to Hitler which is ironic isn't it? At the cost of millions of people's lives too?
Hmm lemme make an equation...
Hitler + Killing millions of innocent people = oh wait.. that didn't happen now did it...
You just said how dare someone have an opinion to deny such an event the way I understood it, so in that case you have just said how dare somebody have an opinion that if different to that of your own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardemax
On the case of Hitler, yes if somebody questions peoples rights to have an opinion that is different to their own, then that is the same view that Adolf Hilter took and is a totally wrong view to take. History is not black and white, its like when I compare the European Union to the Soviet Union - well obviously the EU hasn't killed millions of people, however their command structures and their methods of working and aims are exactly the same.
Their "command structures" and methods are exactly the same as the Soviet Union's? ok that's a new one aswell lolQuote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Well I didn't say how dare somebody have an opinion that is different to mine.
I think you're making things up.
I'm assuming you meant to say threatening someone and being racist are two separate things, as that was the initial comparison. And they are different things, but they're both derogatory and illegal things.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
If someone does side with the BNP then they're agreeing with the parties views, therefore agreeing to accept racist views, which in turn makes that person racist.
You can't flaunt freedom of speech around everywhere, because the real freedom of speech doesn't exist in the sense that you're talking about. There are already restrictions on freedom of speech, such as I pointed out with my death threat example. Freedom of speech already doesn't exist, so the racist party (and when I say the racist party I clearly mean the BNP), should not be allowed to express their racist and offensive views.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Nobody has tripped anyone over, unless you're care to elaborate on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
I understand that you're trying to tell me that these lunatics have the right to express their political views, however much absurd those views may be, but I'm just not seeing it;)
Yes, because if you look into the European Union and the Soviet Union you would find that both are unelected, with a parliament with no powers and both were forced on the people of Europe by eliteists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardemax
No you did imply that with your sentence, ok to make it clear then; do you think somebody should be able to deny the holocaust?
I support some elements of the British National Partys policies, does that make me racist?Quote:
I'm assuming you meant to say threatening someone and being racist are two separate things, as that was the initial comparison. And they are different things, but they're both derogatory and illegal things.
If someone does side with the BNP then they're agreeing with the parties views, therefore agreeing to accept racist views, which in turn makes that person racist.
You can, the British National Party is a legal party and has a racial immigration policy, just like that of the Labour Party. Therefore the British National Party has every right to protest and talk about their views without persecution from the octopus state thats gone a little loony left and seems to think that anybody that disagrees with it it either rascist, homophobic, crazy, evil or xenohphobic. I was called xenophobic on here once for saying the United Kingdom should leave the European Union - thats how the left operates, slander and submission.Quote:
You can't flaunt freedom of speech around everywhere, because the real freedom of speech doesn't exist in the sense that you're talking about. There are already restrictions on freedom of speech, such as I pointed out with my death threat example. Freedom of speech already doesn't exist, so the racist party (and when I say the racist party I clearly mean the BNP), should not be allowed to express their racist and offensive views.
..then you hold the same views to your heart that Hitler held to his, that something you don't agree with shouldn't be allowed to exist. It really make me wonder why we fought a world war when so many people today don't give a damn/have no grasp of the meaning of freedom of speech.Quote:
Nobody has tripped anyone over, unless you're care to elaborate on that.
I understand that you're trying to tell me that these lunatics have the right to express their political views, however much absurd those views may be, but I'm just not seeing it;)
I don't agree with socialist parties, however I would never restrict/ban their right to freedom of speech. I guess this (again) shows politics in its true colour, the left cannot accept an opinion that differs to theirs.
Ardemax, DAN ISN'T SAYING THE HOLOCAUST DIDN'T HAPPEN. :eusa_wall
HOWEVER THAT ***** AT THE BNP IS ALLOWED TO BELIEVE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN IF HE WANTS.
No, I don't think anyone should deny the holocast. There's so much proof it happened, the stories told from veterans, the actual written proof etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
I didn't say he denied the holocaust? Don't go on a hissy!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio
btw I don't understand your second sentence with the asterix's
Well why do you keep asking the same questions then? He's said about 7 times that freedom of speech means one is allowed to deny it.
The second part was about Nick Griffin.
Surely if you deny it, your status towards countries like France, Germany, Poland etc. would be seen as racist? Or maybe discrimination?
I'm not saying you deny it, but people like Nick Griffin who denied it.
Well that's why you have to decide whether you accept freedom of speech or not. I don't know whether those countries accept it the same way we do in the UK, but they can't claim to accept it and then complain as soon as you say something they disagree with, for reasons stated by Dan above.
let's be honest, the holocaust doesn't occur often...
so surely some countries have the right to control whether the denial of it should be allowed or not.
I am not asking whether it occured or not, I believe it happened aswell as you obviously do. I am asking whether or not you think people should be allowed to say (freedom of speech) whether or not they believe it happened or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardemax
That's called a dictatorship hunny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardemax
as in to actually say it infront of other people because they don't think it happened?Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
ill refer back to my other post, the holocaust doesn't occur often and just the absolute shock and horrific events that happened in it that were so dreadful lead me to believe that they shouldn't be forgotten and certainly not denied.
..then that quite simply means that you do not value freedom of speech just as Hitler didn't and that an opinion that is different to yours, in your opinion, should be banned/not permitted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardemax
you've said the same thing you did in the last post and if you read properly you will know im not the same as Adolf Hitler and feel quite offended that you compared me to HitlerQuote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
You do not value democracy, you have admitted yourself that an opinion that is different to yours, one which you do not agree with, should be banned. That is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardemax
no i have not.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
give me a direct quote saying where i say if there's an opinion different to mine, so it must be banned...
You said that Nick Griffin should not be allowed to deny the holocaust, despite this being his opinion. His opinion is different to yours and you have called for it to be banned, thus calling for an opinion that disagrees with your own to be banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardemax
quote plzQuote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
You have not directly said that, so are you now telling me that Nick Griffin should be allowed to deny the holocaust? - which is it?
Oh my days that's exactly what you are doing! You keep saying the state should decide what the people are allowed to believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardemax
^^^ This is exactly what you are saying Ardemax. ^^^Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Right, forget the topic (the Holocaust). Just think about freedom of speech. Freedom of speech means you are allowed to believe anything you want and not be scared to speak out about your beliefs.
However, if you want freedom of speech, you have to accept that others may say things you do not like or agree with. But for freedom of speech to work, you must also accept the other person's beliefs.
You can't have your cake and eat it by claiming freedom of speech BUT telling people what they can or can not believe! Just because it happens to be a touchy subject, it changes nothing.
The "Freedom of speech" argument is poor. Of course there are limits on what we can say. Ok the BNP talk about Islam being a religion of war, yes? Well surely Muslims should have the right to insight racial hatred against the British and Americans then? Its a two way street. We have "Freedom of speech" but this freedom is constrained by common decency which is why Racism and Homophobia is against the law and why the BNP should be too.
Also saying "Other countries do it, why shouldn't we" is a poor argument. In the 1940's most of Europe was under Nazi control. "They are facists, why shouldn't we be". It makes no sense! Britain is an independent country for a reason and the vast majority of people in Britain are liberal and have no real problem with migrants.
So I can insult you as much as I want, then when you complain I can say it was freedom of speech and your complaint would be ignored. Is that how freedom of speech works then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio
I find aspects of socialism sickening and believe its led to hundreds of millions of deaths throughout history, should Labour, The Socialist Party and others be banned then if the BNP is to be banned? - afterall its come out that Labour infact had a immigration policy that was based on race, just like the BNP - yet I don't see you calling for them to be banned?Quote:
The "Freedom of speech" argument is poor. Of course there are limits on what we can say. Ok the BNP talk about Islam being a religion of war, yes? Well surely Muslims should have the right to insight racial hatred against the British and Americans then? Its a two way street. We have "Freedom of speech" but this freedom is constrained by common decency which is why Racism and Homophobia is against the law and why the BNP should be too.
Also saying "Other countries do it, why shouldn't we" is a poor argument. In the 1940's most of Europe was under Nazi control. "They are facists, why shouldn't we be". It makes no sense! Britain is an independent country for a reason and the vast majority of people in Britain are liberal and have no real problem with migrants.
Denying the holocaust isn't directly insulting anybody, people will get insulted but thats life, just like they wold get insulted by my view that the invasion of Iraq was illegal and wasted soliders lives for nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardemax
..so yes, finally you are understanding the meaning of freedom of speech and that is doesn't work one way, it has to work both ways.
please don't group me, a very patriotic Englishman, in with those facist morons. there's a difference between being proud in your country (let's face it not many english people are) and being racist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mint
Ok firstly Labour are NOT socialist anymore. Secondly it was mainly the conservatives that had an immigration policy based on race with politicians like Enoch Powell. Even if Labour did have one then why should they be banned, they don't now, if they still had it then I believe they should. I'd also like to point out that I am not a Labour supporter, I vote for the Liberal Democrats.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
What about insulting the lives of 6 Million dead people who were unquestionably killed by the Nazis? Or how about their families who still exist today? How would you feel if all of your family and friends were ruthlessly massacred systematically in a "Death factory" and then a large group of people denied that they had died? You are frankly ignorant about the effects of events like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
I'm agreeing with Flyduo here.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Although denying the holocaust doesn't seem like you're insulting anyone, you're actually insulting millions.
Think about it, you're family has been killed then some guy comes along and says it's nothing but lies.
Would you feel happy? No of course you wouldn't. You'd feel insulted because someone who obviously have no knowledge of WW2 has just said it.
This is where freedom of speech must be controlled.
Enoch Powell was right, he warned of the conflicts and problems to come with immigration and he will be proved right in time, its already happened in France and it'll happen here. Multi-culturalism does not work if its not truly multi-cultural, allowing a whole area to become a sub-province of Poland is not multi-cultural. The immigration of post-war to around the 1980s was multi-cultural and it worked, however the immigration now is not working.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyDuo
On the holocaust, i'd feel what anybody with any knowledge or value of democracy would feel, the holocaust happened but some people don't agree with that, just like I don't agree that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. Those people in the death camps died because their freedom of speech/religion was taken away from them, let us please please not make the same mistake.
Oh my god, well it isn't freedom of speech if its restricted! - the Holocaust is a historical event, just like the Cultural Revolution, the Khamer Rogue, 9/11, Boer Wars, World War I, World War II, Japanese invasion of Manchuria - ALL historical events, people have different opinions on them and should be allowed to state them - that is WHY we fought Adolf Hitler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardemax
I wouldn't feel insulted, i'd feel they are wrong in their opinion but i'd accept it, because my family died because of freedom of speech/religion/seuxality being taken away from them. I'd feel proud and I do to a degree that we live or did live in a country which was different from Europe, a country in which you could voice your opinion without being slapped down by the state.
You'd feel proud?Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
You'd actually feel proud that your families death was being called a lie, but you'd be proud because freedom of speech is so amazing?
Yes, because i'd live in a land in which they did not and died a horrible death for expressing their religion/freedom of speech, as I said before - I may not agree with the idea that the holocaust didn't happen but I agree with the idea of democracy and his right to state his opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardemax
But if you're saying that, then you haven't answered how you would feel?Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
It would depend on the person, personally i'd say to them it did happen and i'd want to correct them - but as I said, I respect their right to say what their take on this historical event is as that was the whole point in world war II, to defend democracy and stop more of these camps opening across Eurasia.
Yes, they can decide what they take on the historical event, but I feel that they should at least admit that it did actually happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
No, because that is their belief that it didn't happen.
So what you're actually saying in the top bit is that anyone who breaks the rules of Great Britain should be deported? I don't think so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay.
And at the bottom one, I hardly think that if you came from a war torn country and your life was in peril that you'd want to only be able to choose from a neighbouring nation to grant you sanctuary. I honestly think people need to at least attempt to put themselves in these peoples shoes before they say something so ignorant.
Again, at the bold bit. That happens alot with 'british' people, infact in my experience this is alot more true with the white british population than any other. Immigrants often take jobs which nobody here actually wants and they take alot less money for it. Maybe we should look at our own 'british' population before we start to attack people who have emigrated here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay.
The two things aren't comparable. There is no scientific nor pictoral evidence whatsoever that the birth of Jesus occured. There are eye witness accounts of the holocaust, soldiers of the Nazi party have even admitted to it. So to deny that it happened is ignorance at best. Freedom of speech is not there for people to hide behind when they want to have controversial opinions which can hurt others feelings. It is designed to allow someone to disagree with an opinion, not an actual historical fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio
I'm sorry but you wouldn't find it threatening to you and your life here in Britain if the BNP had a plan to 'voluntarily' repatriate you to wherever you descended? Even if you were infact born here, yet you happened to have foreign born parents? And even if they let you stay, if they wanted to 'voluntarily' move your parents out of the country? I don't think so.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Please don't be dense. Lack of freedom of speech is only one part of a dictatorship and its not the key one. A dictatorship controls every aspect of a persons life, not just what they say.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
It doesn't. Hitlers opinions were based purely on that, he spread hatred through what he said. Nowhere did he say that an opinion different to his was wrong, he merely said it was wrong to deny that millions of people lost their lives unjustly and cruelly.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Yes it is, it's denying the fact that people's relatives (grandparents, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters etc) died in camps after being forced to work. It's insulting to their memory to deny this. In Germany today it is actually an offence punishable by a prison term to deny that the holocaust happened. I personally think that this is a bit extreme but thats how bad the German people feel about this event in their history. Do you not think that they'd deny this if they could? It doesn't exactly put them in a great light historically that they elected the person who incited such hatred.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
And finally, my opinion. The BNP spread hatred and I think it's correct to liken them to the Nazi Party. They are blaming Britains current woes on one part of our society, when infact its probably got very little to do with it. They attract voters who have no actual knowledge of politics and who live in deprived areas of Britain which have been neglected so to me their similarities to the Nazi party are startling and frankly its frightening that they have been allowed the freedom to speak about such issues openly.
It may be considered an insult by those people, but why do you not understand that that is freedom of speech?
If somebody bans a historical opinion because they do not agree with it, that is dictorial, its not democratic and its not what we fought Adolf Hitler for.
..with replies like these, it really make me wonder why we even bothered.