UKIP candidate suspended over racist comments

In reply to a few people about 'people have a right to be angry about what labour has done to this country'...

Virtually all the other parties would be just as useless.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

No i'm sorry I do not dodge topics, I often end up asking you for a straight reply over and over again in debates to which you never seem to reply. So i'm glad your now getting involed in the immigration debate for once so i'll reply now; [B]visas exist so people would not be prevented from coming here for a job over the 5-year freeze.

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So what are people who come in on 'visas' to work called Dan? They are called immigrants.:P Again they need to word their statements more carefully.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

No i'm sorry I do not dodge topics, I often end up asking you for a straight reply over and over again in debates to which you never seem to reply. So i'm glad your now getting involed in the immigration debate for once so i'll reply now; visas exist so people would not be prevented from coming here for a job over the 5-year freeze.

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So am I right in saying that you believe that you want to still allow people to come to this country and find a job in the next 5 years?

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Originally Posted by Catzsy

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So what are people who come in on 'visas' to work called Dan? They are called immigrants.:P Again they need to word their statements more carefully.

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Exactly so I am a little confused as to what he really wants. Wonder if he is even sure himself...

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Originally Posted by Catzsy

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So what are people who come in on 'visas' to work called Dan? They are called immigrants.:P Again they need to word their statements more carefully.

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According to Jordy who i've just spoke to about it, it depends on the visa. The visa for working is not classed as immigration as they are not settled in the United Kingdom. For example Austrialia has a strict immigration policy but allows workers to commute if need be to the country but not settle as it is an entirely seperate issue.

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So am I right in saying that you believe that you want to still allow people to come to this country and find a job in the next 5 years?

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I want to allow people to come and work in this country but not allow them to settle here on a permanent basis for the time being while we sort out the immigration system which is being abused and is out of control.

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Originally Posted by Jayme

Age has nothing to do with it, im 17, i can vote next year - i know whats wrong and right with my community at this time.
The labour party, as far as i can see, has done nothing to help my area, which is one of the worst in the country, so should be top of the list to help out?
What ill say to you Dander sir, is write a letter to Mr Brown and ask him to help out Middlesbrough, then ill have faith in the labour party.
And i do see the positives about labour, such as the amount of money my mother gets from child support and child tax credit, for being a single mother, that money helps out alot, i applaud labour for that.

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What makes you think Tories / Lib Dems / UKIP / BNP etc would fix this issue?

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I want to allow people to come and work in this country but not allow them to settle here on a permanent basis for the time being while we sort out the immigration system which is being abused and is out of control.

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Why not? You need 5 years to fix the issue and permanent residency requires that the person stay for 4 years. So in about 4 years, you should almost have the issue resolved. Meaning, you can still allow people in and let them settle in as by the time they have lived here for 4 years, the immigration issue would have been nearly solved.

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Originally Posted by Dander

What makes you think Tories / Lib Dems / UKIP / BNP etc would fix this issue?

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Because the parties you have listed (except the Liberal Democrats) traditonally stand for lower taxes across the board thus helping the lower end of the scale especially.

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Why not? You need 5 years to fix the issue and permanent residency requires that the person stay for 4 years. So in about 4 years, you should almost have the issue resolved. Meaning, you can still allow people in and let them settle in as by the time they have lived here for 4 years, the immigration issue would have been nearly solved.

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The reason being because those who are coming here now would be settling under the flawed rules we have now, meaning that it would be adding to the problem whereas a 5-year freeze would allow for a new system to be set up which only allows those who conform to British needs into the country.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Because the parties you have listed (except the Liberal Democrats) traditonally stand for lower taxes across the board thus helping the lower end of the scale especially.

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Labour: # A commitment not to raise any of the rates of income tax and not to extend VAT to food, children's clothes, books, newspapers and public transport fares

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

The reason being because those who are coming here now would be settling under the flawed rules we have now, meaning that it would be adding to the problem whereas a 5-year freeze would allow for a new system to be set up which only allows those who conform to British needs into the country.

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I don't understand how having to live here for 4 years before becoming a permanent residence is flawed? and please explain what exactly you mean by "conform to British needs".
To me it sounds like "if you aren't going to help us make more money, sod off". What happened to having Britain as a multi-cultural country?

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Originally Posted by Dander

Labour: # A commitment not to raise any of the rates of income tax and not to extend VAT to food, children's clothes, books, newspapers and public transport fares

I don't understand how having to live here for 4 years before becoming a permanent residence is flawed? and please explain what exactly you mean by "conform to British needs".
To me it sounds like "if you aren't going to help us make more money, sod off". What happened to having Britain as a multi-cultural country?

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Does that pledge include national insurance, fuel prices and various other stealth taxes - I didnt think so.

On the second part, because the system at the moment is flawed let me give you an example. UKIP make government tommorow and an immigrant applies for settlement in this country despite the fact we are not in need of his skills (if he has any), if UKIP did not freeze the system instantly on gaining office then that would mean many like him would end up gaining access to the country and thus destroying the whole point of introducing a new immigration system while deporting those who do not work, those who commit crime and those who are extremists.

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if you aren't going to help us make more money, sod off

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Yes, thats what every other country does. I dont care whether your black, brown, green or yellow - if you are going to come here and make money thus benefitting the country then you are as welcome as hell to come here, if you are not and intend to survive on the pockets of the British taxpayer then you can sod off because at the end of the day if you are of no use to my country then you are not welcome and its the same system/line of thought in every other country around the world.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Does that pledge include national insurance, fuel prices and various other stealth taxes - I didnt think so.

On the second part, because the system at the moment is flawed let me give you an example. UKIP make government tommorow and an immigrant applies for settlement in this country despite the fact we are not in need of his skills (if he has any), if UKIP did not freeze the system instantly on gaining office then that would mean many like him would end up gaining access to the country and thus destroying the whole point of introducing a new immigration system while deporting those who do not work, those who commit crime and those who are extremists.

Yes, thats what every other country does. I dont care whether your black, brown, green or yellow - if you are going to come here and make money thus benefitting the country then you are as welcome as hell to come here, if you are not and intend to survive on the pockets of the British taxpayer then you can sod off because at the end of the day if you are of no use to my country then you are not welcome and its the same system/line of thought in every other country around the world.

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A lot of British people are of no use to your country. They sit on their lazy asses and do nothing all day and survive on other peoples pockets too. Shall we kick them out too? If no, then why not? Its the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Dander

A lot of British people are of no use to your country. They sit on their lazy asses and do nothing all day and survive on other peoples pockets too. Shall we kick them out too? If no, then why not? Its the same thing.

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No but we do not need more useless lazy people as we have enough already, like you say.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

No but we do not need more useless lazy people as we have enough already, like you say.

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You only want those who will help this country but still wont give them permanent residency? Why should they come here then ...
And how will you prove who is an extremist?

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Originally Posted by Dander

You only want those who will help this country but still wont give them permanent residency? Why should they come here then ...
And how will you prove who is an extremist?

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If people just want to come over here to LIVE and WORK, then that's fine by me. But if they want to come over here just to LIVE then first they have to prove they can contribute to the economy. That means WORKING.

I'm not sure if this is in UKIP's policies, but if an immigrant comes to work here for more than an allocated amount of time, speaks English and doesn't invite all of his second cousins over to squat with him illegally, then he should be given Britain citizenship and offered places to live; along with having to pay his share of taxes.

That's what the Lib Dems say, but I'm sure it's not just the Lib Dems.

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Originally Posted by Dander

You only want those who will help this country but still wont give them permanent residency? Why should they come here then ...
And how will you prove who is an extremist?

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I would give them permanent residency after the 5-year freeze, its unfortunate that we need a freeze but its needed as we are in a situation where the system is totally out of control and is being abused which causes immense strain to the country as well as creating harmful social issues such as higher crime rates. They will come here for work, a lot of people such as French and Germans commute to the United Kingdom to the London financial sector for work and then return home. Those who wish to settle here would have to wait for a period of 5 years until the new system as been set up and the problems we have now are sorted. After the 5-year freeze (hopefully sooner depending on the time period it takes) they could then apply to permanently settle in the United Kingdom provided they;

- Are financially capable of supporting themselves.
- Are of working age which will benefit this country economically.
- Have qualifications which this country requires.
- Do not have a criminal record.
- Do not hold extremist views (would most likely come under the record issue).

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

- Do not hold extremist views (would most likely come under the record issue).

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What defines 'extremist' views, this is a Democracy and all and I don't think it should be up to a government body to determine 'extremist views', aside from the obvious.

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Originally Posted by Apeel

What defines 'extremist' views, this is a Democracy and all and I don't think it should be up to a government body to determine 'extremist views', aside from the obvious.

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I would deem it as anyone who is deemed a threat to national security. I am a great believer in freedom of speech and democracy however I do not think it right to allow people in who only wish to stir up hatred with violence. The line to define this is difficult I agree, however I believe it should only cover those who want to wage war on the western world (in short, obvious threats to national security).

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I would deem it as anyone who is deemed a threat to national security. I am a great believer in freedom of speech and democracy however I do not think it right to allow people in who only wish to stir up hatred with violence. The line to define this is difficult I agree, however I believe it should only cover those who want to wage war on the western world (in short, obvious threats to national security).

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It would be hard to draw the line given the diversity of our immigration pooling. We can draw one line at people who would harm the country and its citizens and I guess it could stretch to foreign policy in regards to wanting to act violence on ethnic groups. Although that may follow under hate crimes.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I would give them permanent residency after the 5-year freeze, its unfortunate that we need a freeze but its needed as we are in a situation where the system is totally out of control and is being abused which causes immense strain to the country as well as creating harmful social issues such as higher crime rates. They will come here for work, a lot of people such as French and Germans commute to the United Kingdom to the London financial sector for work and then return home. Those who wish to settle here would have to wait for a period of 5 years until the new system as been set up and the problems we have now are sorted. After the 5-year freeze (hopefully sooner depending on the time period it takes) they could then apply to permanently settle in the United Kingdom provided they;

- Are financially capable of supporting themselves.
- Are of working age which will benefit this country economically.
- Have qualifications which this country requires.
- Do not have a criminal record.
- Do not hold extremist views (would most likely come under the record issue).

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You claim you dont dodge questions but you clearly do as I asked the below and you dodged it.

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And how will you prove who is an extremist?

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Anyway, if they are here, working, why should they have to wait 5 years for the system to be set up etc? Why not just give those who work the treatment of getting permanent residency within 4 years?

And if you dislike lazy asses so much, why not kick out those who do not work because they actually cba to?

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Originally Posted by Dander

You claim you dont dodge questions but you clearly do as I asked the below and you dodged it.

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I posted just above you how you would define an extremist; http://www.habboxforum.com/showthrea...33#post6412033 - I have not dodged the question, more like you dodged the answer.

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Anyway, if they are here, working, why should they have to wait 5 years for the system to be set up etc? Why not just give those who work the treatment of getting permanent residency within 4 years?

And if you dislike lazy asses so much, why not kick out those who do not work because they actually cba to?

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I just explained why we need a freeze, because the system needs sorting out and it will take a matter of years for the new system to be implemented. Those who apply now are applying under this system, so it would be pointless for a UKIP government to come in and say "alright we are sorting it out now" while at the same time the old system would continue running for a period of 5 years, and the old system is the problem. The issue with 'lazy asses'; how can we deport people who are solely British citzens? - we cannot, but we dont need more of them from other countries as we have enough of our own.

Theres the common sense solution of not adding to the problem, and allowing people in who will add to the problem just deepens the problem.

I just think labour have had enough time to do it, and havnt done it, why not give somebody else a shot at helping the community?

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Originally Posted by Dander

What makes you think Tories / Lib Dems / UKIP / BNP etc would fix this issue?

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

According to Jordy who i've just spoke to about it, it depends on the visa. The visa for working is not classed as immigration as they are not settled in the United Kingdom. For example Austrialia has a strict immigration policy but allows workers to commute if need be to the country but not settle as it is an entirely seperate issue.

I want to allow people to come and work in this country but not allow them to settle here on a permanent basis for the time being while we sort out the immigration system which is being abused and is out of control.

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Definition of immigration from the Oxford Dictionary of economics:

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Immigration
Movement of foreign nationals to reside in a country. This does not include people on short visits, for business or as tourists. Immigrants may come with the intention of permanent settlement or with the intention of returning home after a prolonged stay.

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So that means that people entering the country with a work permit which I guess is going to be not a short visit are immigrants. As I said before they cannot say they are freezing immigration and then allow people into work. The one statement totally disagrees with the other. :P

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Originally Posted by Catzsy

Definition of immigration from the Oxford Dictionary of economics:

So that means that people entering the country with a work permit which I guess is going to be not a short visit are immigrants. As I said before they cannot say they are freezing immigration and then allow people into work. The one statement totally disagrees with the other. :P

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A work permit is a short visit, often they fly home or only spend a few days here and then fly home before flying back. This would not be stopped as it would harm business and there is no reasonable objection to it as it is healthy to the economy and benefits this country. The statements (UKIP policy) do not disagree with one another or overlap one another; permanent settlement in the United Kingdom is frozen for a 5-year period whereas visas for business are granted.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

A work permit is a short visit, often they fly home or only spend a few days here and then fly home before flying back. This would not be stopped as it would harm business and there is no reasonable objection to it as it is healthy to the economy and benefits this country. The statements (UKIP policy) do not disagree with one another or overlap one another; permanent settlement in the United Kingdom is frozen for a 5-year period whereas visas for business are granted.

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I am not saying it is not healthy but what you were saying is that they weren't immigrants but they are. But work permits are not for a short visit - they are granted usually for 6 months or more and whether they fly back every weekend is irrelevant and they are not 'business' visas as that is a totally separate issue. So what they are basically doing is going to a points policy which has already been announced by the government. I do think it's a bit 'pie in the sky though' as you can't just withdraw from the EU - it wouldn't that easy. What about all the people that are here already from EU Countries they don't have visas. What would happen to them?

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Originally Posted by Catzsy

Come on Dan - you know it is not a short visit :P They are treated as immigrants. I am not saying it is not healthly - their mini manifesto states that immigration is to be frozen for 5 years. That's what most people are going to read. Business visas have nothing to do with permits/visas for work. What they should have said is that they plan to control immigration not freeze it. :P

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They would allow visas for short work visits but not for permanent settlement - there is a very clear difference and one that a government (a competant one at least) is capable of handling. The issue of settled immigration is the issue, not the work schemes which generate enormous income for this country. The settled immigration question is the big issue because its a massive social issue involving crime and the failure of intergration which is taking place and its worrying because what Enoch Powell predicted will come true if we carry on as it is now.

We need a managed system.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

They would allow visas for short work visits but not for permanent settlement - there is a very clear difference and one that a government (a competant one at least) is capable of handling. The issue of settled immigration is the issue, not the work schemes which generate enormous income for this country. The settled immigration question is the big issue because its a massive social issue involving crime and the failure of intergration which is taking place and its worrying because what Enoch Powell predicted will come true if we carry on as it is now.

We need a managed system.

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Yes - sorry I edited my post. You are quick off the mark here :P