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To the people who believed in him and so on, then maybe he is to them. But last time I remember a lot of innocent people died because of that man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibs960
But you should be blaming the government on this one, not the men and women who are in the British armed services fighting over in Afghan. They are there doing their job and they are trying to do it at their best. So actually show them some respect.
Just read through and Gibs - you need to show some respect, that guy was out there fighting for his country and the protection of innocent people - I'd say that's enough for his daughter to call him a hero.
Also, you need to brush up on your knowledge, the Taliban have never bombed Britain because the Taliban aren't a terrorist organisation, they are a fundamentalist religious group who reside in some areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan and their aims are to be in control of said countries.
It is Al Qaeda who have attacked Britain/USA in the past, a completely different group with very few links. What you don't realise is that there are many, many plots to attack this country every single month however you don't hear about many because security services stop them before they get anywhere.
You seem to forget that a bomb was found on a British plane, on British soil only a month or two ago also. Just because it didn't go off doesn't mean it wasn't an attack.
And if the bombs are still being found & stopped then the army aren't doing a very good job are they and anyone can become a hero if they join the army right? And also a lot of people have died because of the decision to go to Afghanistan
If the bombs are found and stopped that means the Armed Services, the Police and so on are doing a good job. It isn't easy preventing terrorism when it will always be a threat to this country, luckily plots are found before anything big happens (It isn't perfect but it will get better over the years) At least they haven't gone off and killed more innocent people like London 2005.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibs960
Yes, a lot of people may of died in Afghanistan but the British Armed Services are not over there to kill innocent people. They are there to keep them safe, yes accidents do happen and sadly they do get caught up in the fire fight.
You seem to be somewhat confused, the war in Afghanistan is scarcely (if at all) linked to terrorism. The Taliban are a militant religious group who used to control Afghanistan in a god damn awful way and that's what we're stopping them doing, the only link to terrorism is that the Taliban recieve financial support from some members of Al Qaeda and some rich Saudis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibs960
The army are nothing to do with stopping terrorist attacks on home soil.
But if they're still being found then Al Qaeda are still a massive terrorist organisation that are going to continue to kill British soldiers, anyway I'm not even wasting my time anymore, the man is not ahero.
You seriously have no clue do you? That man is a hero for fighting in the Armed Services no matter what war he did it in. That is face and that will stay with his family for the rest of their lives. You may not like that fact but you will have to deal with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibs960
In the end, he chose to go out, he knew the risks. Being in the army is just a job with more risks, that's how I see it. It's not being a hero or anything like that, it's just getting on. They are only a hero if they specifically save certain peoples lives because you know they did, us fighting them might not have saved anyone at all really and we probably don't know the half of what goes on out there. It's not our governments fault he died, he signed up and he knew of what could happen and if anything he is the selfish one. If he really cared about his family he wouldn't have left them when his daughter was so young.
But in having soldiers in Afghanistan, I don't see why we help them? The chances our even when (if) they get back to a normal status, they would probably never help us at all.
In the end he knew the risks and chose to take them.
The war may seem pointless but it's more about keeping Afghanistan & Iraq stable rather than trying to take them over or finding anything anymore.
The war was/is illegal, but we can't go back and stop Blair making the decision, so really we can't do anything. We can't just pull out because the Taliban will take over Afghanistan and Iraq. We need to leave the country a better place than we entered it. No matter if the war is illegal or not, we need to at least show that we're doing it for the better. Pulling out won't don't that, it will just show we went in there to find imaginary weapons and left when it suited us. Now we have to focus on making them safe countries to live in rather than fighting off the opposition.
Obviously this is a sad story, but as I said, all soldiers know what they're getting themselves in for, they know the risks, they choose to take them. He wasn't forced into the army, he wasn't forced to go to Afghanistan, it was his choice and he opted to take it. It's sad we've lost another soldier, but it's not the fault of the Government. Don't turn loss of life into a debate about politics.
How does this fit the bill?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibs960
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-SIM-card.html
If they hadn't been found then who knows what would have happened. It's not what you know about it's what you don't. Members of our security services work against terrorism daily and those who don't think that the constant battle/ war against terrorism globally isn't necessary
are pretty naïve in my opinion.
http://www.collateralmurder.com/
Oh yes, a most noble war.
We'd all like freedom and we'd all like a world utopia, but it is not going to happen and cannot happen no matter how many corrupt governments you attempt to prop up around the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chippiewill
Well this is another topic, and I made the point about how genuinely mentally impaired people are in prison for committing crimes when they should be in asylums being cared for as they used to be, until we closed the large majority of them down. A great deal of prisoners/killers though are not mentally impaired, and even if they were - being disadvantaged (depends on what extent) does not give you a free pass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chippiewall
Well you see i'll give an example, soldiers in the U.S. army in 2000 would expect to be called up to defend their country when it is needed and would expect their government not to send them into battle unless it was critically needed to secure U.S. security - in 2003 we invaded Iraq. That says it all, nobody should expect their government to send them to battle unless it is absolutely nessacery (and I would recommended you watching the conclusion of Farenheit 9/11 by Michael Moore).Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
What absolute nonsense, they are now joining the Taliban/independence fighters en mass because they don't want to be occupied, their family members are dead and their crops (which keeps them and their family fed) have been firebombed by the U.S. air force.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
Better than it was? I can't believe you actually think that - it was terrible to begin with, its worse now and the longer we stay there its going to get worse and worse and worse. It has a corrupt government that rigged elections (and also Mr Kazai has oil links, perhaps why he signed a deal to have a pipeline built upon becoming Premier) - he and his government are hated as are the troops there.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
People have lost their homes, lost family members, ha crops destroyed, are still under the thumb of militant groups anyway - and they look at the puppet government in Kabul and quite rightly they pick up arms and go and fight with the militants, Afghanistan has a history of rejecting occupiers; the British, the Soviets and soon it will be the U.S. coalition.
What utopian nonsense, there will never be peace in Afghanistan - especially for as long as we are there.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
As for yourself, oh I do hope you sign up and go and serve yourself rather than expecting others to do it in place of yourself.
What is lame is the use of ridiculous dreamy terms you've been using, I can come up with some now "we need to spread peace and stability through the Middle East" or "we need to have a stable and peaceful Afghan government which is democratic and not corrupt" - both are as far from reality as they will ever be and we certainly cannot introduce them with a government in a box.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
As for its all void, yes it is all void - stop bringing in absolute nonsense like U.S. hospitals who are most likely in hospital in the first place because they've been caught in crossfire between coalition troops and the Taliban forces.
We could be, but thats not all we can do is it - so you'd be all for cutting off trae links with China would you? do you not realise that every world superpower has fallen because of debt, and if a major/semi-major conflict were to kick off (for example China-Taiwan) and the U.S. got involved it would mean the end of the U.S. as the world superpower and the beginning of China as the world superpower? the U.S. does not have the money for these wars and neither does the western world in general - stop pretending and look at Great Britain after the second world war.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
Here's a thought, what if the Cubans for example don't like the way you run your country (with China, India and Russia in agreement) - what does that lead to? it leads to war, war on a major scale.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
Don't you realise that wherever we go (Iraq, Afghanistan) the only people who benefit are the corportations?Quote:
Having said all that too though again I think what would save the most lives and what would improve the lives of the most people is the best course of action to take. I also believe isolationism is stupid and any country, especially when their corporations are exploiting works in various parts of the world, is entirely in the wrong.
Of course you don't, why not just establish world government? (which creates an even more dangerous situation than before) - it is not upto you or the western world anymore to decide who runs Iraq/Iran/Afghanistan - although mentioning Iran I must ask; considering Israel have 200 nuclear weapons (supplied by the west which breach nuclear treaties and are 'illegal' under international law although I don't accept such a thing exists) would you support an invasion of Israel seeing as they are not doing what we are telling other countries to do? that's why countries like Iran are fed up, they are sick of being told what to do by a gang of complete hypocrites.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
More to the point its actually not possible, we do not have the money to do it.
That isn't remotely similar, the only silly thing is your attitude where you think you have the right to tell the world how to run its government/its own policies. Although I am interested in your moral standpoint, what about this?;Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
The European Arrest Warrant and the fact that most of my countries laws are made by unelected politics in Brussels.
Going to liberate us are you?
The arrest of Julian Assange for using the free right of speech and expression.
Going to lecture China are we on human rights concerning political prisoners?
The fact that Britain can now hold people without charge in prison for a period of weeks.
Going to lecture the world on fairness are we?
Guantanamo Bay.
Going to lecture the world on the virtues of freedom, democracy and justice are we?
Israel and its *secret* nuclear weapons programme.
Going to lecture Iran on nuclear weapons they haven't even built yet?
Britain and its CCTV state; ID cards, state surveillance, government databases.
Going to lecture China on freedom are we?
I could go on, but we'd be here for some time - so maybe when the western world has sorted itself out both financially, morally and socially i'll listen to the utopian dream of policing the world - until then, well it's all complete warmongering garbage. Quite frankly with views like the ones you have given, I would advise Iran and every other country the west doesn't like to acquire nuclear weapons ASAP.
It's eventually going to happen, and it's a long way off. Until then we can certainly improve conditions - surly you've taken note of the collapse of the Soviet Union, loss of Taliban control? You're looking at resolving ongoing international conflicts with the wave of a wand and since that's impossible again you're completely signing it all off. Why? We can and have proven that a difference can be achieved.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
No that proves nothing at all though - because many employees of many industries expect things within the role of their career but they're certainly never going to go the way they want. The military is no different. Infact it's even more sporadic and especially in America where they're always under the spotlight and have a long and twisting path of being involved in international affairs which don't become involved with America first. Moreover that's only relative to a several year era because those soldiers who disagreed with the invasion would have had more than ample time to leave the military in the handful of years to follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
And under Taliban rule sports, television and flying kites were illegal and female depression rates were horrendous. There's always two sides of a spectrum so naturally there will be a group of locals who condem NATO for involvement in the East - there's also a vast amount of locals who are glad for the international community taking interest in their well being. We have a fair standard for how we feel citizens of a nation should be treated and if someone's going against that to the extent that they're fighting against us I have no sympathy for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
This is simply presented poorly, Dan. The British and Soviets took the nation for no reason other than greedy imperialism. A group of NATO nations being involved modern day to establish order in kayos and to make better the lives of the locals is hardly in pursuit of self interest. Oh, and what's more - we might not even of had to be involved in Afghanistan if England or the USSR hadn't initially screwed them over so many years ago, anyway!Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Compared to what it was life quality is and will continue to get better with time.
This is entirely pessimistic and based off nothing especially considering you have no idea what the future can hold. Worse beasts have been sleighed than the conflict and its roots in the East.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Obama has said himself in interview that America's overall goals in Afghanistan are to not only be there militarily but during the aftermath be available to provide electricity, construct roads and provide other infrastructure necessary to sustain a nation. It's not all void, do you seriously think America, as well as England, Canada and -- oh wait:Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
http://davzy.com/screenshots/Screen_...211-112424.png
Alright Dan are you suggesting all the above countries just in layman's words suck? You must be if you're actually suggesting that not a single one of the above hadn't acknowledged their obvious failure to come from the get go, right?
I think it foolish to consider any military action in China because it just wouldn't play out well. I think this to be unfortunate, but I also think China's downfall will be future internal politics, in conjunction with advances in technology - because as technology advances even in the scope of several richer countries it will affect both how things are produced as well as the ease at which a higher standard of quality of live is achieved.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
China, India, and Russia wouldn't agree? And Cuba probably does think that, but comparing life quality there to here it's easy to see that such a belief is misplaced.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
It is upto us when we see abuses of human rights. Saying otherwise is selfish.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
I think the Western World should never stop sharing and trying to internationally uphold its moral standards. Again Dan you're sort of dancing around this now, in that you're suggesting if we can't help everyone we should help no one.
What? If we quit already..Imagine what can happen?.. All the countries have to contribute in order to defeat the Taliban. It's just not USA or Canada or whatsoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Only dead have seen the end of war - Plato
Whats going to happen? the only thing happening and being 'achieved' (again you keep harping on about achievements, what achievements have we made over ion Afghanistan) is that our soldiers are being placed in a battle zone as easy picking targets for groups which despise the western world mainly due to general hypocrisy in foreign affairs and the fact that many are now picking up arms to free their country of the occupying forces! so what are we achieving - nothing!Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
You've just completely blanked it all - I have just made the point that being in Afghanistan does nothing for U.S. security and only serves to make it worse in which the United States is seen as the occupier, I care because our politicians are keeping a war going which they know is pointless, fruitless - yet they still keep our troops there in order to prop up an unpopular and hated corrupt government in Kabul which serves the interests of large U.S. corporations such as United Defence and Haliburton.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
Oh what rubbish, female depression rates - well you might be interested to know that the man you toppled in Iraq (Saddam Hussein and his Ba'ath regime) were actually liberators of women against the practise of old islamic law - but of course when Saddam refused to play the dance of the U.S., he all of a sudden turned into a very nasty man who was simply terrible but then we had George W Bush and his family going over to meet the Saudi regime which was one thousand times worse than the Ba'ath regime in Iraq. Absolute hypocrisy, and you wonder why people like the Taliban hate everything about the west!Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
In terms of Taliban rules, you may be interested to know we have laws like that here - for example we can no longer protest by our war memorial (the cenotaph in London) under the 'serious and organised crime act', so i'm in no position and nor is the west to criticise the Taliban for banning kites, sports and television.
I can't believe i'm hearing this; greedy imperialism? so what does that say about the likes of United Defence who have made billions out of these wars, or the Haliburton group along with various other large U.S. corporations of the military-industrial complex who have made billions upon billions out of these wars of which the taxpayers suffers for in the end. How about the oil pipelines signed by Hamid Karzai (who he himself worked for the oil company Unocal) which will benefit large U.S. corporations and corporations generally around the world? what about the massive lithium deposits that just happned to be found in Afghanistan - I will take no lessons on imperialism from the liberal neo-cons such as yourself, at least the British Empire invested something back into its colonies and had something to show for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
The locals are poor, the locals are turning against the occupiers and it will end up like Vietnam. A western world with no values will troop back off home, its nations deeper into crippling debt while the large corporations pocket billions.
If we leave it will, if we don't then the country will continue to be a cesspit of corruption and chaos.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
I think you will find its being realistic, do you honestly think that by introducing a government in a box (which is hated and despised by the people of Afghanistan) is really going to improve anything? if you do then you are greatly naive.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
And how is the U.S. affording all of this? - it can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
What is the question? the only thing that sucks if this unpopular and fruitless military adventure which has failed, is failing and will continue to fail. Why not just admit failure now and bring the soldiers home before anymore die for a void reason?Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
Wouldn't play out well? and Afghanistan is playing out well is it? absolute nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
As for China, China is rapidly overtaking the bankrupt west and will continue to do so as the United States meets the same end that the British Empire did as with all Empires/superpowers - if a medium sized conflict kicks off then the United States if history, even if it wins the battle just as Britain apparently 'won' World War II. China has minimal regulation, a much more capitalist economy than we have with less regulation and they are buying up the assets in the western world and moving them east - all thanks to the socialist-corporatist model imposed on the west, and the U.S. will be the one who suffers the most because the U.S. will fall from its plinth just as we did.
No its hypothetical, if they did come to that conclusion how would you feel? and maybe they feel their life quality is better.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
It's not selfish its realistic, we haven't got the money - accept this.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
I've just given various examples of how we have no moral standards and you've just blanked them all, in the next reply please do address these before you start proposing we go around the world sorting out everybody else and their standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelUser
What will happen? you tell me. 9/11 was composed by a group of Saudis, the same can be said for the 7/7 attacks in the United Kingdom which were committed by home-grown islamic fundementalists. So why did we firstly invade Iraq and then Afghanistan? I love this clip so i'll have to put this in, it just shows the stupidity of the whole adventure and how it has nothing to do with terrorism and anybody who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves;Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromium