Scottish Independence

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Originally Posted by buttons

and what's wrong with freedom? freedom to choose who we want to rule us, freedom to make our own laws, freedom to make our country better? many of us don't want to be ruled by Westminster, don't want to be subjected to ukip rule who think of us as 'subsidy junkies', don't want to be placed into further poverty with the nhs being privatised etc...
& i can ask u the same, why don't england gives us a decent argument for staying together other than 'u need us!!! u can't live without our currency!!'

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NHS Scotland control is devolved and for a lot of your issues, you're not "ruled by Westminster" compared to England who doesn't have any kind of devolved assembly so has Scottish/Welsh/NI MPs voting on matters that does not affect them.
I don't get the argument of not wanting to be under a certain governments ruling or "we didn't vote for this government" etc. You could grab the same sized chunk in lots of parts of the UK and say the same thing, but they don't argue for independence. The problem is to do with the FPTP voting system and this horrifically unbalanced devolution present.

I actually think you'll find Salmond is the one fear mongering as far as currency is concerned :)
Well one reason is not sharing a land border with a foreign country really helps as far as defence is concerned and was arguably a small reason GB became a country in the first place.
Secondly, Scotland (and the rUK, don't get me wrong) are in much better economic positions in union, though there's a good chance Scotland would take a bigger blow as it's more reliant on exporting to the rUK than the rUK exports to Scotland though this is by far catastrophic.
Thirdly, there's a good chance a lot of Scottish based businesses will move their base of operations.
Finally, some would argue what the SNP are promising is quite unrealistic. For a while they've been greasing the entrance to independence with free prescriptions, free tuition fees etc. and they don't seem to be stopping with this. Scotland already has a much larger expenditure per head with declining oil revenues, meaning something is going to have to give way at some point and you'll be getting the treatment England is getting today.

Some of that might not make much sense but hey hum.

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Originally Posted by buttons

presuming youre suggesting yes voters = hate england vs no voters = know politics

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Well yes, considering there are no solid political arguments for devolution or plans to make it actually work if the yes vote does go through. The entire thing relies on being magically allowed to keep all of the benefits you get from being part of GB (even though it'd be economically and legally impossible) but getting to pick your own national anthem and ticking a different box on nationality polls

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Originally Posted by Stephen

if they vote yes then they should be drilled and pushed towards norway

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lmao makes sense

@buttons; join us, bye @Red; and @Calvin; if you wish to be moved it can be arranged. Together we can make the UK look like a fat dinosaur with an abnormally small head.

My lethal photoshop skills.

http://i.imgur.com/Aau57fh.png


Not sure if the voting has gone ahead yet but I hope Scotland gain Independence.

NO RICHIE! never joining u!!!

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Originally Posted by Red

NO RICHIE! never joining u!!!

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We don't want you ;l

I took Stephens advice and drilled you off Ireland and glued you to England. gg.

I respect the Scottish Nationalist cause a lot because I think it is a completely legit feeling to have, the freedom to make the own laws for your own people and your own culture - rather than be ruled by a foreign power. But that is where my agreement with the SNP and the pro-independence forces ends, because I simply don't regard Scotland as a foreign country: it's my view that Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland have a common British culture that is strong enough to exist under the same political and legal system (with certain exceptions as in the Scottish legal system which the Acts of Union accomodated). Scottish nationalists obviously think different, and that's fine - but this should come down to gut feeling.

The argument over the NHS, foreign military adventures, Conservative Governments in Westminster and whether or not Scotland will be better off independent are so absurd when it comes to deciding whether or not to be independent or not. For example, Northern England votes Labour mostly and the south of England votes Conservative: do we then decide to partition the country simply because we don't like the political result in one part of the country? No, chopping a country up on the basis of party politics is the most ridiculous concept.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XZTGrj_efk

Great Britain is arguably the most successful civilisation in world history since the fall of Rome, why let Labour and Alex Salmond bring it to an end?

i watch two of the new documentaries on bbc iplayer and changed my mind, i really don't want scotland to leave :(

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I respect the Scottish Nationalist cause a lot because I think it is a completely legit feeling to have, the freedom to make the own laws for your own people and your own culture - rather than be ruled by a foreign power.
And that is exactly what this vote is about, not about Alex Salmond, Not about hating the English, We feel we can make our own decisions on what's best from Scotland and the people living in it.

But that is where my agreement with the SNP and the pro-independence forces ends,
Well that didn't last long.

because I simply don't regard Scotland as a foreign country: it's my view that Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland have a common British culture that is strong enough to exist under the same political and legal system (with certain exceptions as in the Scottish legal system which the Acts of Union accomodated).
Scottish nationalists obviously think different, and that's fine - but this should come down to gut feeling.
This isn't a sarccy comment. Could you define what you're definition of British Culture is that we all have in common?

The argument over the NHS(With the threat of NHS:E this will have a knock on effect with NHS:S), foreign military adventures(Some people don't want to be part of illegal wars and feel we shouldn't butt in), Conservative Governments in Westminster(It's not absurd to want the Government you voted for and not to be governed by one you did not) and whether or not Scotland will be better off independent(Our survey says..) are so absurd when it comes to deciding whether or not to be independent or not. Not absurd at all.

For example, Northern England votes Labour mostly and the south of England votes Conservative: do we then decide to partition the country simply because we don't like the political result in one part of the country? No, chopping a country up on the basis of party politics is the most ridiculous concept.
This is why England and Scotland are different and have different views. This is why the current arrangement isn't working. No matter what Scotland votes for it rarely makes a difference so what is the point in voting in the first place? If Scotland becomes independent than Scotland will get the Government it votes for, and we won't have things forced on us like the bedroom tax. There is nothing wrong with wanting that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XZTGrj_efk

Great Britain is arguably the most successful civilisation in world history since the fall of Rome, why let Labour and The Yes Campaign bring it to an end?
Fixed it for you, people need to stop blaming Salmond for everything. All he done was get us the vote we wanted and put in place his vision (white paper) just as Cameron will give the in out vote in a few years.. maybe.

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https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/...40010146_n.jpg

Not so "Great" as you thought?

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Originally Posted by Southe,

And that is exactly what this vote is about, not about Alex Salmond, Not about hating the English, We feel we can make our own decisions on what's best from Scotland and the people living in it.

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I never claimed it had anything to do with anti-English feeling, indeed I would say a lot of it is to do with anti-Westminister feeling which I share 100% with you. But just because I have to endure piss poor Labour and Conservative goverments doesn't mean I then want to hang, draw and quarter my nation. Our problem are the rotten stinking main political parties and the politicians, not the system or indeed the nation itself.

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Originally Posted by Southe,

This isn't a sarccy comment. Could you define what you're definition of British Culture is that we all have in common?

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Our common law, the Monarchy, the House of Lords and House of Commons, our definition of English liberty, the Church of England/the protestant faith in general, our longstanding national sovereignty and independence, the Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights, our shared wars for three hundred years including the Falklands, World War I & II, our humour, our language, our genetics, our flag, our songs, our myths and folklore, our poetry, our food, our drink....... and anything else you care to throw in. And don't belittle any of it, it was all of that that tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Scottish Britons signed up and fought under the Union flag and sacrificed themselves to defend.

They didn't fight for more NHS funding, more welfare money or against a Tory Government. They fought and died for Great Britain.

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Originally Posted by Southe,

(With the threat of NHS:E this will have a knock on effect with NHS)

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Labour privatised much of the NHS with PFI schemes, which Scotland voted for.

What would you do if Labour or even the SNP in an independent Scotland then privatised more NHS, declare another independent state?

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Originally Posted by Southe,

(Some people don't want to be part of illegal wars and feel we shouldn't butt in)

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And I feel the same, as do most Britons.

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Originally Posted by Southe,

(It's not absurd to want the Government you voted for and not to be governed by one you did not)

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I didn't vote Conservative or Labour, do I now get my own independent state as my horse didn't win the race? Absurd.

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Originally Posted by Southe,

and whether or not Scotland will be better off independent(Our survey says..) are so absurd when it comes to deciding whether or not to be independent or not. Not absurd at all.

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It is absurd to decide a matter like national independence on the basis of whether Salmond will give you more in benefits than Westminster.

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Originally Posted by Southe,

This is why England and Scotland are different and have different views. This is why the current arrangement isn't working. No matter what Scotland votes for it rarely makes a difference so what is the point in voting in the first place? If Scotland becomes independent than Scotland will get the Government it votes for, and we won't have things forced on us like the bedroom tax. There is nothing wrong with wanting that.

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Yes you will, what is this rubbish? All of Scotland does not vote the Scottish National Party, does that therefore then entitle the huge swathes of Scotland which vote Labour - as well as those areas which vote Liberal Democrat, Green and Tory - to partition themselves from the SNP voting parts of Scotland?

As for the bedroom 'tax' (which isn't even a tax) this is how absurd the debate has become. That we're now considering breaking up of a highly successful country on the basis of a tax that doesn't exist says it all really, doesn't it?

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Originally Posted by Southe,

Not so "Great" as you thought?

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You'd just as easily be able to find differences between north and south Scotland, and eastern and western Scotland..... does that then mean you'd consider the partitioning of Scotland itself in order to be top of some international league table?

If benefit payment rates and the NHS funding define to you how great a country is then I can't help you.

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Originally Posted by Southe,

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/...40010146_n.jpg

Not so "Great" as you thought?

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The amount of anti-English emphasis used by the Yes Campaign is quite high. Whilst I'm not suggesting everyone is voting because they're against the English, it's definitely something emphasised throughout the whole campaign.

Not quite sure what you mean about the NHS. Nobody wanted those illegal wars, but if you're referring to Blairs then you can't complain more than anyone else since Labour did have a majority in Scotland.

There's not a Conservative government, there's a coalition government so technically, nobody voted for it and technically, nobody votes for a government but for their local representative who then can be used as a basis to form government. In addition, you could take any chunk of ~5 million people and claim their vote makes no difference.

You seem to just be complaining about the voting system more than anything else which essentially renders most peoples votes useless.

Now on to your image.
"Very recent", which year exactly?
I read a brief summary of this. It claimed the UK has a low number of holidays per year (I didn't realise 4 weeks was low...) and part of the reasoning behind it was the "lack of sunshine". What a farce.
I tried to find a source for this but only found a Dailymail article to support the claim.
Might be true.
Yet, the whole of the UK is 1 in 6 despite the Salmond claiming to have invested so much to tackle poverty?
I think the gender pay gap argument is a farce so won't begin to comment.
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/sta...DP%29_YB14.png - March 2014

The image then seems to make a few of the same points just worded differently so I won't comment on them individually anymore I just want to know how you think any of this will be different independent? Most of the cost of fuel is tax and duty, but with Salmonds plan to build a fund from this I wouldn't expect that to decrease. And the obesity rates? Scotland is 2nd behind the USA :)