Abortion: Right or Wrong? And what limits?

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Originally Posted by Lewis

It is relevant. It may not be possible at the time, but it's still relevant as to what's to come. And that will come, if the father's a decent person and the same goes for the woman. It is both their baby to love and raise them, but that cannot happen if an abortion happens. The man should certainly have a say in my opinion.

A man can't go to the pregnant woman and say "would you like me to be pregnant for a change this week" lmao

In no way do I see a ten year old child being more rightfully the woman's child than the father's child. And I think no different from when it's yet to be born.

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You're talking about future work the father could potentially put in. Up until the baby is born, the mother is the one with ultimately the final decision. That's like me arguing to my boss that I should get a higher salary at my job because in the future I could potentially be the manager. Obviously morally the father should have some say in it, but legally the decision should remain with the person who has to carry the child for almost a year.

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Originally Posted by Lewis

Why? They both know about the possibilities for pregnancy and they both realise it's the woman that could get pregnant. It's equally both their child and so, since the woman certainly does know the possibilities, the man should get an equal say.

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@Empired;

alongside this, a woman getting an abortion is just like a woman refusing a father to see her ten year old son when he's done nothing wrong.

(I won't compare it to murdering a ten year old, because that's completely different and not comparable, but I do certainly think that abortion is a form of murder.)

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Originally Posted by djclune

You're talking about future work the father could potentially put in. Up until the baby is born, the mother is the one with ultimately the final decision. That's like me arguing to my boss that I should get a higher salary at my job because in the future I could potentially be the manager. Obviously morally the father should have some say in it, but legally the decision should remain with the person who has to carry the child for almost a year.

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Well, if it's only the father that actually wants the baby and refuses an abortion, it sounds to me as if the man is more likely to be the more hard-working parent. (although that's my personal opinion and certainly not true in all cases)

I disagree with your example of a pay rise. We're talking about a life here that over time will develop into a someone, not money. Sure what the father is wanting may not end up resulting in him being a good parent or whatever, but it's still their child. The same can happen with the woman, just because it's in their body for nine months or however long doesn't mean that they'll end up being a good parent or stick around with their child. Woman can dump their children with their father just as the father can do the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Lewis

@Empired;

alongside this, a woman getting an abortion is just like a woman refusing a father to see her ten year old son when he's done nothing wrong.

(I won't compare it to murdering a ten year old, because that's completely different and not comparable, but I do certainly think that abortion is a form of murder.)

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Well, if it's only the father that actually wants the baby and refuses an abortion, it sounds to me as if the man is more likely to be the more hard-working parent. (ALTHOUGH THAT CERTAINLY ISN'T TRUE IN ALL CASES)

I disagree with your example of a pay rise. We're talking about a life here that over time will develop into a someone, not money. Sure what the father is wanting may not end up resulting in him being a good parent or whatever, but it's still their child. The same can happen with the woman, just because it's in their body for nine months or however long doesn't mean that they'll end up being a good parent or stick around with their child.

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So because the man wants a child the woman should be forced to give birth to a child she doesn't want? Don't be so ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by djclune

So because the man wants a child the woman should be forced to give birth to a child she doesn't want? Don't be so ridiculous.

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Also, if men don't even get a say in whether or not their unborn baby should live, why should they have to take a role in raising the child or be forced to give money to the mother for the child, etc?

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Originally Posted by Lewis

Also...



If men don't get a say in whether or not their unborn baby should live, why should they have to take a role in raising the child or give child benefits, etc?

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Because (and I can't believe i'm having to point this out to you) unless you want to start forcing women through abortions or making them give birth to children they don't want there isn't a solution. Yes, it might seem unfair to men, but there are enough precautions that prevent us from getting women pregnant that there's really no excuse. I don't particularly want to live in a society where we force people to do something they don't want to. Due to the fact that women are the ones that give birth it is obvious that they (whether you believe it's fair or not is irrelevant) should have more say in the matter until the child is born.

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Originally Posted by djclune

Because (and I can't believe i'm having to point this out to you) unless you want to start forcing women through abortions or making them give birth to children they don't want there isn't a solution. Yes, it might seem unfair to men, but there are enough precautions that prevent us from getting women pregnant that there's really no excuse. I don't particularly want to live in a society where we force people to do something they don't want to. Due to the fact that women are the ones that give birth it is obvious that they (whether you believe it's fair or not is irrelevant) should have more say in the matter until the child is born.

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In no way am I saying that a women should be forced through an abortion, either they agree on a decision or the baby gets born if there isn't an agreement. I'm certainly against abortion all together (unless there's a very good reason) but I doubt anything will stop it anytime soon, but there should be at least a fairer decision. And whether or not there's enough precautions to stop women from getting pregnant, it's both the male and female responsible for it in the end--not one. One isn't getting forced to do something knowing that certain protection isn't being used.

And even if specific protection is being used and pregnancy is still a possibility, they know it could happen.

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Originally Posted by Lewis

In no way am I saying that a women should be forced through an abortion, either they agree on a decision or the baby gets born if there isn't an agreement.

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So you are saying women should be forced to give birth. Not sure what kind of draconian society you want to live in, but i'm glad the UK is nothing like that.

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Originally Posted by djclune

So you are saying women should be forced to give birth. Not sure what kind of Draconian society you want to live in, but i'm glad the UK is nothing like that.

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Not unless both parents agree on the decision. I think of men having an equal say and I'm sure many others do, alongside those who don't!

In the case there's some issue with the pregnancy, such as possible death of the woman or serious problems for the child, then I can somewhat understand abortion and it should certainly be allowed.

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Originally Posted by Lewis

Not unless both parents agree on the decision. I think of men having an equal say and I'm sure many others do, alongside those who don't!

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Pardon? You wrote "In no way am I saying that a women should be forced through an abortion, either they agree on a decision or the baby gets born if there isn't an agreement." So if a women doesn't want to have the baby but the man does you think the woman should be forced to give birth.

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Originally Posted by djclune

Pardon? You wrote "In no way am I saying that a women should be forced through an abortion, either they agree on a decision or the baby gets born if there isn't an agreement." So if a women doesn't want to have the baby but the man does you think the woman should be forced to give birth.

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Perhaps I did slip up on my words there, I can't disagree with your comment.

What I meant anyway was that if both parents agreed, they should be allowed an abortion and not forced to give birth. But if one doesn't, the abortion should not go through. (which I'm sure you've picked up by now since I've mentioned it through all my comments lmao)