Moderating

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Originally Posted by MattGarner

I have also said that not every usernote needs a PM to the user.

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So if every user note isn't even all that important then why is my amount being used against me? Like invincible said - they're not even punishments because I have had one added today (I think) when the moderator themselves knew it was a joke. Yet, they have to add one. So technically I have a user note for joking.

I think every user note should either have a PM issued with it. The PM needs to be clearer. Explaining that a user note has been added to your account. Alternatively, allow us to see our user notes.

I think people are coming to a consensus that they should be wiped after a certain amount of time and everyone I've spoken to agrees with me it's stupid Garion is mentioning the user notes that I've already been banned for.

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Originally Posted by Professor-Alex

I read the first few posts in the thread up to FlyingJesus' but not past that because they got too long, so sorry if what I say has been said before!

When I designed the system, the theory was for usernotes to only be used as a record for previous rulebreaking. So, for example, if Jake got a PM pointing out to him that calling another member an idiot isn't acceptable, it would be noted in the usernotes with either a copy/paste of the PM or just "User PM'd about insulting other members" (usually a copy/paste because its quicker). On that basis a user should know about most usernotes they have because they'll have received a PM on the same topic. The only ones they won't know about are ones that say "watch out for this guy, he's a known troll, if he kicks off temp ban him" or something like that, and a user generally doesn't get too many of them before being banned.

So if you've managed to accumulate 23 usernotes (there's only like 10 infractable rules so that's pretty impressive!) you've either done a lot to piss off management (which you should know about!) or there's some weird stuff going on!

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You designed the whole system :O. In my view the moderation guide is much less helpful than it used to be - everything used to be clarified down to finer points such as to what exactly was a pointless post. It was created through experience of earlier Forum Managers but added to, as time went on and a copy of all Sierks directions were there to aid interpretation but no longer, which is a pity.

There are in fact 18 infractable rules none of which have changed since
I was here before. Don't forget that user notes and pms also go out for Avatars and Signatures which always have a pm first so that can add up. Also we make a user note of pointless posts/spam/double posts/bumping/posting in the wrong forum for which nothing is done unless unless it becomes a regular occurence by the member. Also infractions/warnings expire so a pm will go out again if the member hasn't broken the rule for a while. So over a period of time the user notes add up. It is not a question of pissing management off or anything weird going on.

I wondered where this came from: "User PM'd about insulting other members". I was always taught that the first rule of moderating was to make sure that you have the evidence to back up any pm/infraction/warning that you issued otherwise it wasn't worth the paper it was written on. In fact an infraction or warning are reversed if the content is removed before issuing so if you put"User PM'd about insulting other members" with a link for a post where the content has been removed it is not very helpful for those deciding on any course of action.

You also say this:
The only ones they won't know about are ones that say "watch out for this guy, he's a known troll, if he kicks off temp ban him"
These are the ones that the member really ought to know about via Pms/warnings/infractions right from the start and the automatic banning system should kick in pretty quickly in these circumstances - I do not personally see a need to mark a user note with this. I also think the word 'troll' is quite offensive in its own right and am pleased that the phrase seems to be dying out on the forum.

@Jake - you do not have a user note for joking. We are talking about spam here. Yes I do believe you didn't mean the comments to be serious but if they offend somebody else they are not a joke so it pays to be mindful of who you banter with or take the consequences.

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Originally Posted by Immenseman

With the user notes, apparently I have way too many. This is the problem. People who have 15+, I know other members have that many should be banned is what I gathered after speaking to nvrspk4. Right, how are we supposed to know how many user notes we have picked up? I really don't understand this. I had no idea if I had 21 or 3.

because PM's being sent are generally the usernote itself.

EG:

Dear Jake,
Don't do this here, its liable to offend.

Regards,

Steve
Forum Moderator.



I spoke to the General and Forum manager about this already. Nvrspk4 told me that usually PMs are sent with user notes to alert the users they have broken the rules. I now understand this isn't always the case but it often is. I can confirm that I have had no way near this many PMs.

You have recieved AT LEAST 14 PM's regarding your 20 usernotes, the way I can tell is because the moderators have literally copied and paste the PM they have sent you as the details of the usernote.

I think it should be mandatory - every time a user note is placed on your account you should receive a PM telling you so or at least more regularly than at the moment.

Well in a way they kind of technically do I mean yeah they may not tell you that it will result in a usernote but when they do send you a PM generally it will be logged as a usernote.

It's all well and good telling me I have 20+ user notes and that it isn't acceptable. However, if I had been sent a PM with each and every one then I wouldn't have so many.

I am sorry Jake, but I fail to see this. Your account has numerous number of Usernotes, Infractions and Warnings associated with it and yet you continue to break the rules and more often then not you tread a very fine line in your posts between just barely acceptable and breaking the rules.

I personally see this as a communication failure on your behalf. Rather than threatening users with banning them because they've clocked up too many how about you spend your valuable time doing something worth while and change the rule so that moderators should PM the user each time a user note is issued. I don't care about time restraints - you shouldn't implement a system that isn't practical.

Let me break it down for you.


You offend -> We PM -> We create Usernote with contents of PM

Simple and Effective, I think it is time very well spent. We notify the users quite nicely with a PM telling them the issue and this PM is what is generally logged in the usernotes.

We send you too many PM's you get too many usernotes. Simple solution. STOP BREAKING THE RULES!


We're the members, some of us paying member yet you can't even spend approximately 30 seconds sending a PM telling us we have been issued a user note for posting inappropriately for example. That would eradicate the communication issue and let users know they've broken the equivocal rules.

*sigh* Once again, the usernotes are generally a Log of the PM's we have sent you so..... yeah we do inform you.

Also, I then asked nvrspk4 to tell me what some of my user notes were for. He gave me a list of a few of the breaches. Numerous of them were for the same offence. Thus I think if a moderator is going to issue a user note to a member for trolling lets say and they see they already have one for trolling then surely they can make it a warning instead. At least with warnings we can see how many we've built up and acknowledge them and alter our behaviour to ensure we don't fall foul of the same offence again. I have numerous user notes for the same offence. I'm not even talking user notes for the same thing twice. I've had user notes 3/4 times for the same offence, surely I should be warned for it after acquiring a user note for it twice.

Actually as far as I am aware your trolling offences were PM'd to you, how do I know? because the usernotes related to this contain the exact copy of what has been sent to you.


Again, is this time restraints? Can moderators not be bothered to look through the user notes before deciding on what negative sanction to issue? That's the only conclusion I can come to. I don't want moderators to be cutting corners because it's just poor service to members, who I will reiterate keep this forum open. How hard can it be to see a member has had 3 user notes for the same offence? Instead of whacking another one on there which they won't even know about how about adding a warning or even an infraction so the member is aware.


Yet again you are PM'd about the "offence" before it becomes a usernote. So this paragraph like a few others yet again is redundant and repetitve.

Another point is you use things from over a year ago?! In my PM it mentioned things that happened 12 months ago. I said I didn't want to mention my individual situation but I assume that's the way it goes for all members. For a start, I have been banned in December 2008, yet you still look at things before then to try and ban me again. Do you always punish people for things they've already been punished for.

Depends if they haven't learned from it from the original ban.

EG:
You troll -> Get a caution -> Troll Again -> Get a temp -> Troll again -> Perm Ban.

The way the PM was sent was rude and it was no coincedence it was sent yesterday after I proved a certain person wrong and they had to send numerous PMs to get their point across and finally their friend listened and decided to take action :rolleyes:.

Not entirely sure what that is about..........

At the moment, I've got 3 infractions which is more than I've ever had, yet you basically say I'm the worst behaved on the forum. If I was so ill behaved I wouldn't create this thread to try and improve things for myself and others.

So far you haven't really made any sort of constructive suggestion.

I don't see how I have had so many user notes yet so little warnings and infractions. The warnings and infractions I have had have often been removed or downgraded from infractions to warnings etc. I can see the last 5 on my user CP and 3 out of the 5 have been removed. Does that mean 60% of all moderating on my account is wrong? No, that would be unfair but you can't throw "facts" around without digging deeper and looking at each and every account individually. I was staff in January 2009, personally appointed by the General Manager so my behaviour can't be all that bad yet you say I've been so ill behaved over the last 12 months, I was still staff like 3 months ago until I resigned. Not fired, resigned. Whether I was going to be fired is another story :eusa_whis

Seems irrelevant to me.

All of my points seem to come down to skipping corners. I don't think this is right for members to have to endure. There are many people who would happily spend the time being a moderator and would do the task in front of them with depth, an element which is evidently lacking at the present time.

To conclude my points for those who don't want to read (I don't blame you):

• Send a PM with every user note You seem to have this in the wrong order. THE USERNOTE IS THE PM!
• Look at previous user notes for the same offence before adding another one Yet again this is a log of offences commited on your account.
• If a member has 2 user notes about a rule they've broken again - issue a warning/infraction instead We will probably take that on board. Oh wait we already do.......
  
• Before banning a member or threatening to ban, look into their account first and don't jump to conclusions In all honestly with all that being said I still reckon your account is due a temp ban or something and considering I am the most placid person when it comes to user banning that says a lot.
  

You can see my reasoning for such points throughout my post. I just added that for people who don't wish to read through the whole post, that was just to conclude.

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This is my stand on the whole thing. It seems you are mistaken as to what a usernote is which ultimately at the end of the day is an easy way for us to log moderation activity about an individual account.

For instance.

You make a rude comment which doesnt deserve a warning or infraction but a mod still decides to PM you or you have created an offence a mod wants to pm you about it.

The PM itself will be logged in the usernotes.

To finalise this post here is a quote from the moderation guide.

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Send the rule breaker a polite PM explaining what they have done wrong. It does however have to address the rule breaking, explain why it is not allowed and warn them of future consequences should the PM be ignored.

A usernote should be added with a copy/paste of the PM with the heading “Rule broken: [Rule].” For example, “Rule broken: insulting another forum member.” PLEASE REMEMBER IF YOU ARE REMOVING THE CONTENT OF THE POST YOU MUST COPY IT INTO THE PM AND USER NOTE AS ALL THE EVIDENCE TO BACK YOU UP IN THE CASE OF A COMPLAINT WILL HAVE BEEN REMOVED.

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Based upon all that has been said this thread seems utterly pointless and seems to have escalated from a misunderstanding of what a "usernote" essentially is, which at the end of the day is a moderators log of an individual account. Think of it as your permanent record card like you have in school, I personally think the moderation system is very much effective and considering as I do deal with a vast number of the support tickets I do rely on its effectiveness in logging and recording of offences so I can deal with the tickets.

Why are you using usernotes anyway, surely a way to combat this problem (that been users apparently not knowing they have received a notification they have broke a rule) would be to just use the infractions system as it was intended in the first place. That been, warnings serve as a reminder of the forum rules and serve no weight against the member (as a PM+Usernote does at the moment) and an infraction is a punishment for continually breaking the forum rules. This is the way things used to be done and I certainly don't see anything wrong with it, you could give a member 2-3 warnings before you give them an infraction it doesn't really matter atleast then you are ensuring they get notified about a rule break, a automated message though it might be, I can only assume that PM from a moderator is only a C&P job anyway.

This way you would allow users to see what they've done and keep track of it easily, rather than having to go through their inbox. That way if they argument "You never told me I was breaking the rules" came up, you and the member can both clearly see that the warning was issued to them.

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Originally Posted by Jin

This is my stand on the whole thing. It seems you are mistaken as to what a usernote is which ultimately at the end of the day is an easy way for us to log moderation activity about an individual account.

For instance.

You make a rude comment which doesnt deserve a warning or infraction but a mod still decides to PM you or you have created an offence a mod wants to pm you about it.

The PM itself will be logged in the usernotes.

To finalise this post here is a quote from the moderation guide.

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I'm not mistaken at all. If you'd actually read the entirety of the thread then you'd realise that all of your points had already been raised and been answered, clearly people are skipping corners, again. Makes a splendid change.

So out of 20 user notes I've had 14 PMs yet you say that I've had a PM for every user note. I see once again that somebody doesn't quite understand the system. Nvrspk4 and Mattgarner who deal with them on day to day basis have told me this isn't the case and then you come in here and say it is. This is getting stupid. How am I supposed to know as a member what the hell is going on when not even the people at the top of the ladder give a message with clarity.

You seem to keep reiterating that all user notes are logs of private messages. Once again that has been confirmed not to be the case in this thread, which you should read through before you reply with points that had already been acknowleged.

Going back to 14 PMs out of user notes. Honestly, it's not rocket science. 14 is less 6 than 20 which aids my point. PMs aren't always sent thus we don't know how we're behaving and therefore we can't alter our behaviour - whether we want to or not is irrelevant. It's the fact we're not told. I don't care if this takes an extra 30 seconds of your precious time - members should be treated as individuals because it isn't you or management that keep Hx going, people could do your jobs (regardless of what you think) - it's us, the members. You'd go a long way to remember that, for sure.

About me continuing to break rules. I have 3 infractions at the moment. That's a respectable amount and 1 warning. Sure some have expired but you need 6 to be banned. I always make sure I don't get them because the bottom line remains, I don't want to be banned. I don't know who you are to judge me personally.

I wasn't aware you knew me irl so you can't monitor my charactersitics as much as you'd like to think you can. I wasn't aware I had so many user notes. There is no way of showing. Even in the PMs I have received they haven't told me a user note would be added to my account. You can even check if that's what tickles you.

You seem to keep reiterating that usernotes are logs of PMs. Why haven't I had 23 PMs or whatever it is? Because that isn't how the system works like has been explained in this thread, which you didn't read. It's very ironic you call my posts redundant and repetitive, firstly it merely highlights your maturity. Secondly, I think you'll find you're the one reiterating the same invalid point "usernotes are logs of PMs" - not all of them are. Do you understand that?

It's all well and good telling me how it works in this thread? What about all the others users who won't make a fuss. I'm aware this thread will make me more of a target but if I can get some clarity of the issue (something which is yet to be present to me) then I can at least be happy knowing that other users will be able to understand the system more so than at the moment. It's clear I'm not alone here as every single staff member has told me different things.

• You've told me a PM is sent every time.
• Nvr said they're not always sent but usually should be.
• Matt told me it depends on the situation and offence.
• Robbie! told me they should always be sent.
• invincible told me they're not even used as punishments

The fact that over 25% of my user notes haven't been PMd to me and 60% of my infractions/warnings that I can see aren't valid seems irrelevant? That speaks volumes for you as a Habbox manager, clearly.

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You seem to have this in the wrong order. THE USERNOTE IS THE PM!

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Clearly not. I haven't had a PM for all user notes.

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Yet again this is a log of offences commited on your account.

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As above.

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We will probably take that on board. Oh wait we already do.......

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Funny how I've bene told this will be looked at. You're telling me I don't have more than 2 user notes for the same thing? Your reply has been sub-standard. I thought Admins were supposed to know what was going on.

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In all honestly with all that being said I still reckon your account is due a temp ban or something and considering I am the most placid person when it comes to user banning that says a lot.

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Because I have 3 infractions and 1 warning and user notes that are permanent and never run out? Great stuff.

You've totally contradicted yourself throughout your post. Not just yourself but other senior members of management throwing the whole situation into even more disrepute than before you replied with points that had already been answered.

This reply answers your points. You're the one confused about what user notes are, not me. It's not your fault, it's all lacking clarity and big improvements need to be made to ensure it's effective.

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Originally Posted by mat64

Why are you using usernotes anyway, surely a way to combat this problem (that been users apparently not knowing they have received a notification they have broke a rule) would be to just use the infractions system as it was intended in the first place. That been, warnings serve as a reminder of the forum rules and serve no weight against the member (as a PM+Usernote does at the moment) and an infraction is a punishment for continually breaking the forum rules. This is the way things used to be done and I certainly don't see anything wrong with it, you could give a member 2-3 warnings before you give them an infraction it doesn't really matter atleast then you are ensuring they get notified about a rule break, a automated message though it might be, I can only assume that PM from a moderator is only a C&P job anyway.

This way you would allow users to see what they've done and keep track of it easily, rather than having to go through their inbox. That way if they argument "You never told me I was breaking the rules" came up, you and the member can both clearly see that the warning was issued to them.

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Amen to common sense.

But the member will have been notified before via pm.

If you are suggesting that the members have such a great difficulty to remember to follow the rules that a pm doesnt do its job but we need to rely on permanently visible infractions and warnings if that is the case then I would be quite disappointed in our members.

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Originally Posted by Jin

But the member will have been notified before via pm.

If you are suggesting that the members have such a great difficulty to remember to follow the rules that a pm doesnt do its job but we need to rely on permanently visible infractions and warnings if that is the case then I would be quite disappointed in our members.

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I haven't had 23 PMs so I haven't been notified. I don't have difficulty to remember the rules. I know what they are and it's how I read them. For example, I have infractions for posting to cause arguments. However, I was replying to other posts. Sure, I played a part in an argument but that's not me breaking the rules intentionally.

If they were always visible then you'd constantly see them. This can even be proven. I don't have many infractions/warnings because I constantly see them. The fact remains user notes are there from September time are too long. I have been punished with a ban (I never had a caution like you said was the first step) so half of my user notes should be eradicated as I have been punished for them. Although, one moderator told me user notes aren't punishments - so what am I supposed to believe?!

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Originally Posted by Catzsy

You designed the whole system :O.

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He's a legend :D
Which comes first? The PM or the usernote? If the usernote is done first, it may be that the moderator is sidetracked by other things. They are human beings, who make mistakes, just like the numerous amount of usernotes Jake has (20?!! What've you been doing :p). If 14 PMs were sent out, that means that there were 6 that weren't, which is 6 too many*

*Referring to my 'we're only humans and we make mistakes' statement, let's be generous and say 4 too many instead.

I know that it's been said that PMs aren't sent out for everything but I agree with Catzsy (the rest of her post in the quote above). If PMs were sent out, in the majority of cases, I'm sure that behaviour would improve. Immenseman is clearly just a rebel :p

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Originally Posted by Inseriousity.

He's a legend :D
Which comes first? The PM or the usernote? If the usernote is done first, it may be that the moderator is sidetracked by other things. They are human beings, who make mistakes, just like the numerous amount of usernotes Jake has (20?!! What've you been doing :p). If 14 PMs were sent out, that means that there were 6 that weren't, which is 6 too many*

*Referring to my 'we're only humans and we make mistakes' statement, let's be generous and say 4 too many instead.

I know that it's been said that PMs aren't sent out for everything but I agree with Catzsy (the rest of her post in the quote above). If PMs weren't sent out, in the majority of cases, I'm sure that behaviour would improve. Immenseman is clearly just a rebel :p

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The Usernote is like a record of the PM. Although if its very minor some Moderators/Super Moderators send a PM to the user giving them a little reminder rather then adding a usernote to the their profile.

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Originally Posted by Inseriousity.

He's a legend :D
Which comes first? The PM or the usernote? If the usernote is done first, it may be that the moderator is sidetracked by other things. They are human beings, who make mistakes, just like the numerous amount of usernotes Jake has (20?!! What've you been doing :p). If 14 PMs were sent out, that means that there were 6 that weren't, which is 6 too many*

*Referring to my 'we're only humans and we make mistakes' statement, let's be generous and say 4 too many instead.

I know that it's been said that PMs aren't sent out for everything but I agree with Catzsy (the rest of her post in the quote above). If PMs weren't sent out, in the majority of cases, I'm sure that behaviour would improve. Immenseman is clearly just a rebel :p

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If I could see everything that I had done in front of me I wouldn't exactly be proud of it. It would prompt me to be better behaved to ensure I don't break the rules. How can I have numerous usernotes on the same offence without getting a warning/infraction about it is beyond me.

Maybe if the system was used properly then it wouldn't be so bad. It hasn't been and never will be. User notes should either be scrapped or allow users to see them.