*Debate* Should people believe in god(s) or is it fate? Closing 12th Dec

It would appear that we are in need of some debates considering the response the admins are recieving on this forum and its running and while we are trying to conjure a solution.

So I thought I would make a debate myself as the previous staff members running this forum have now left.

The title of this weeks debate is.

Should people believe in god(s) or is it fate?

Relating to the apparent origin of Christmas and the recent discussions on religion in the "religion / philosophy" forum.

Should people believe in god(s)? Is there a god or maybe another higher being? Is our life pre-planned? What about a mixture of both?

From personal experience I must say that I havent seen much change in my life when I used to believe in the idea of a spiritual being in comparison when my more scientific beliefs on life and death have conflicted, but I have been told of stories from other people who do believe in god of the marvels of their beliefs.

I believe that there is a reason why people believe in a god / religion and it is not due to back in the days before science where unexplainable events of life and phenomona was based on the work of an unseeable holy deity, but the modern day aspect that religion gives hope, support and guidance.

A close christian friend once told me that without his beliefs in Christ he didnt feel confident / strong enough to go through a kidney operation 2 years ago. The same friend also was worried about his A-Level results and he seeked support from not only his close friends but also God.

However some athiests believe that life can be based on a scietific basis where as others believe what happens in a lifetime is fate, everything we do has already been planned or has been done.

If this is true how do we explain such things like Deja Vu? 1 in 5 people claim that they often see deja vu scenes which they had seen in their mind or dreamt about in the past.

What do you believe?

Due to the sensitivity of this topic please respect other peoples, opinions and beliefs, NO ONE IS RIGHT AND MORE IMPORTANTLY NO ONE IS WRONG ON THE DECISIONS OF THEIR FAITH AND BELIEFS!


Special thanks to You for sparking the debate idea in my mind based on this thread

People have a right to free speech, so why not free belief?

Some people like red sauce, some people like brown sauce.

Some people support Arsenal, some people support Barnet.

Some people believe in God(s), some people don't.

People have a right to believe what they wish.

I believe it's upto the person themselves whether they want to believe in anything or not.

I don't believe our life is pre-planned, but I do believe we may be controlled. [:

My thread on god and evolution inspired a debate? :P

I believe that the person has to choose what they believe in themself, no one else has to choose for them or anything. Our lives are not planned out, things just happen. You need to go with the flow. ;)

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Originally Posted by Netik

People have a right to free speech, so why not free belief?

Some people like red sauce, some people like brown sauce.

Some people support Arsenal, some people support Barnet.

Some people believe in God(s), some people don't.

People have a right to believe what they wish.

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Agreed

I believe the term 'God' has been brought around by the media.

People set their default to a god for what I call 'spiritual insurance', if god does exist they will get into heaven!

Religion is a touchy subject in my opinion people who don't have a religion are more touchy about it than people who do

I don't personally believe in a god, but I think religion is a very good thing, generally.

Finding a higher spiritual level is a very beneficial thing and also one thing about religion is that it gives people hope and brings people together. It can keep people going when they need it the most.

Never read the post of replies so that's probably irrelavent, but meh, I think it was worth posting.

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Originally Posted by Netik

People have a right to free speech, so why not free belief?

Some people like red sauce, some people like brown sauce.

Some people support Arsenal, some people support Barnet.

Some people believe in God(s), some people don't.

People have a right to believe what they wish.

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People have the right to belive in god yes, but that doesn't mean that belief is correct, and holding the faith is a good idea. Only that they can choose to hold that opinion if they wish, as i can also choose to refute those claims.

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Originally Posted by Dan2nd

Religion is a touchy subject in my opinion people who don't have a religion are more touchy about it than people who do

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Interesting the general concencus is quite the obvious, for example most aithiests are usualy open to debate as opposed to the fundamentalist christans who tell me i shall rot in hell for all eternity for my grave sin of not belive in there chosen deiety? Primary becuse aithism is a lack of belife as opposed to a belief in itself, hence there is nothing to challenge, a true aithiest would indeed accept there was a god if the available evidence pointed towards one, or if maybe there was any scientific basis for a deiety or creator at all, granted this is technically weak aithism, but i believe that is closer to what aithisim should be than the "strong aithism" which is an active refusal to believe in a diety.

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Now the question "Should people believe in god(s) or is it fate?" is not asking, whether or not a deity of any sort exists, which is slightly confusing as it does appear to be asking is are existance predetermined, but ignoring that, Should people belive in god is more an issue of whether or not you believe a belief in god is benifical to the person in phiscal terms, not to do with anything metaphysical or spiritual or you moving in to the debate of whether or not a deity exists.

Personally i donnt believe a belief in a god is a negative thing, in many cases it helps people to deal with situations and gets them threw things, this is evident by the obvious regeneration of a religion when ever there is a conflicet or hardship. Although i agree it can be benifical (although i don't agree that its true) there can also be downsides, such as if one holds a belife that god is the answer to all questions it simply breeds ignorance.

Although this is more a danger of "organised" religion, which as opposed to my opion on a theistic belife, i do think is a Negative thing, organized religion will often preach blind faith (a very dagerous thing) and brainwash people in to ignorant mindsets, for exsample we are set back over 200 years technological since sicance was more aless outlawed due to religion in the dark ages "/

The final issue of determinism, i would partly agree with, for example are actions are indeed based on are character, opinions and mind sets, although i do also believe in free will, in terms of positive freedom, hence i believe a consciousness is actually at a higher level than are default character which i also belive is above are basic instincts and impulses, this conscious self is what allows us to choose to ether follow are character or instincts or to do the oppersit.

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Originally Posted by 01101101entor

Primary becuse aithism is a lack of belife as opposed to a belief in itself, hence there is nothing to challenge, a true aithiest would indeed accept there was a god if the available evidence pointed towards one, or if maybe there was any scientific basis for a deiety or creator at all, granted this is technically weak aithism, but i believe that is closer to what aithisim should be than the "strong aithism" which is an active refusal to believe in a diety.

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Atheism is a strong belief that there is no god at all, it's not one open to suggestion. If you're unsure then you're agnostic, which is quite different.

I do agree with you mostly on your other points however, but I don't really fear a religious dark age as such, as we're too far past that for it to happen.

I dont believe in religion but I do think that there could be some super power running everything (not changing it but just setting the world up). But I just as much think that there is no power and it is just chance that we are here.

I am really interested in the quantum physics stuff about how the world is and differnt theories.

So I do think that there are different pre set paths that you could take but you can choose what path you want to take. but the universe branches everytime you make a decision (everytime any atom in the universe moves) So there are almost infinate different universes where every possible outcome has happened and we are lucky that we are in this one.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

Atheism is a strong belief that there is no god at all, it's not one open to suggestion. If you're unsure then you're agnostic, which is quite different.

I do agree with you mostly on your other points however, but I don't really fear a religious dark age as such, as we're too far past that for it to happen.

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Actually my definition of atheism is correct, without even researching the term the very construction of the word shows its true meaning, A (not) thism(belief in god)
Hence it is the LACK of a belife in god, not a belief that god does not exist.

because of the two use's atheism has been split in to two category's, Strong athism and weak atheism.
Weak, is in some ways simlar to agnostic in some ways as it is able to change if presented with new evidence, although is not the same, for unlike agnostic, being unsure whether god exists or not, atheism is simply without any belief at all, even to the existent of questioning whether this is or not.
But if god does come down, throwing lightning bolts at people, i would then accept he exists.
The reason i hate organized religion is because it breeds ignorance, and agurges from a conclusion, then attempts to put evidence on it, science takes evidence, and draws conclusions from it, Hence is the evidence suggests god then there may very well be a god, since NO existing evidance at all has very suggested a diety of any sort, i hold my athist belief.
Strong athism on the other hand is just as bad as its religious conter part, already having made a conclusion, instead of actually baseing it on the avaible evidence, which is to be honest quite stupid.
If you wish to read up on the ideas of atheism and the categorizations of strong a weak, im pretty sure wikipeida will have a article.

Note: although science hasnt disprove a god/deity, it has already disproved most of the chirstan bible and that there are 100s of logical contradictions in the cristan concept of god, so whether or not a diety or creator exists, the concept held by most western religions are definilty not it.

ps. Although you do not fear a religios insigted dark age reoccuring, this is the goal of most the current islamic militants, as well as a greate number of fanatical christan terrorists as well, although the news is obligated to cover then 1 or 2 islamics blowing up people, and ignoreing the 100s of christan terroists who are busy firebombing abortion clinics/animal testing centers etc etc around the US...

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Originally Posted by 01101101entor

ps. Although you do not fear a religios insigted dark age reoccuring, this is the goal of most the current islamic militants, as well as a greate number of fanatical christan terrorists as well, although the news is obligated to cover then 1 or 2 islamics blowing up people, and ignoreing the 100s of christan terroists who are busy firebombing abortion clinics/animal testing centers etc etc around the US...

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I agreed with all you said in the post but I dont think you can say there has only been one or two cases of islamics blowing up people.

There are thousands of islamics with car bombs and stuff in the middle east.

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Originally Posted by BL!NKEY

There are thousands of islamics with car bombs and stuff in the middle east.

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If I was an Muslim living there I would probably be the same, besides they are only a minority out of millions of Muslims in the world.

My mum was a Catholic living in Derry at the time when Catholic/Protestant fighting was at its highest, and this wasn't long ago that Christians were doing the exact same as what's going on in the Middle East now. In fact in that and other areas of Northern Ireland and even Eire there are still horrific incidents going on, such as killing people because of what branch of Christianity they are. Look up the Shankill Butchers, I'm pretty sure that they are as bad as any small time Islamic car bomber.

I bring this up as most the violence within the middle east is due to Shi'a/Sunni (sp, sorry) friction and similar things are going on, or at least were until recently in other religions.

Edited By Jin [Forum Admin] - Correcting misleading spelling :)

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Originally Posted by BL!NKEY

I agreed with all you said in the post but I dont think you can say there has only been one or two cases of islamics blowing up people.

There are thousands of islamics with car bombs and stuff in the middle east.

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Its always surprising exactly how much bias the media can put on a situation "/
3 4 car bombs a day in the worst part of iraq right? around 20 dead... the death toll from shootings in a single US cities can beat that on many days. Granted this is only certain cities, but the death rates are much higher across the country. The Christan terrorist hit targets on a daily basis as well if we look at a global level "/
And if you want to go over all time, just keep in mind about witch burnings and crusades, christantys always had a habbit of invading other country's if they have different beliefs "/ and although the case could be made GW bush is just even more stupid that hes given credit for, he has said in a number of speachs about iraq he wants to bring "Christan values" and convert the middle east, as opposed to just forming a democracy...

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Originally Posted by 01101101entor

Interesting the general concencus is quite the obvious, for example most aithiests are usualy open to debate as opposed to the fundamentalist christans who tell me i shall rot in hell for all eternity for my grave sin of not belive in there chosen deiety? Primary becuse aithism is a lack of belife as opposed to a belief in itself, hence there is nothing to challenge, a true aithiest would indeed accept there was a god if the available evidence pointed towards one, or if maybe there was any scientific basis for a deiety or creator at all, granted this is technically weak aithism, but i believe that is closer to what aithisim should be than the "strong aithism" which is an active refusal to believe in a diety.

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Man I got told Lol. I do however think atheists are normally first to point he finger towards certain religions when it comes to terrorism

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Originally Posted by Dan2nd

Man I got told Lol. I do however think atheists are normally first to point he finger towards certain religions when it comes to terrorism

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In what way, from an athiest prospective, no religion is favored, hence any decisions based on whos to blame for a terrorist act is not bias towards ones own belifes. Although it can be clamed religion is the cause of most wars, and has indeed be proven to be so, this is not pointing the figer to any particular religious denomination. I know certain islamic militants are committing terroist acts in iraq while also many chritans are busy firebombing abortion clinics, or just blowing each other up, take northen island as a good exsample of this, and its still going on in some cases even now "/

I can think of no exsamples of athiests clameing a specific religion is to be blame for terrosim? well at least not any athiest that has a clue about what athism actualy is or has any subject knowlage, the occaonal moron maybe.
Although its equaly important to note Athism is a LACK of faith not a faith itself, hence no single person could ever reprisent all athists, since that would be like haveing a single represntive for ALL religions "/

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Originally Posted by Dan2nd

Religion is a touchy subject in my opinion people who don't have a religion are more touchy about it than people who do

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Untrue. There is nothing to offend to people who dont have a religion, is there? There is nothing you can say to an athiest that offends their beliefs. They dont believe in god, there isnt anything there so they arent touchy about it. People who believe in god are much more sensitive about their beliefs, because there is actually something there to offend.

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Originally Posted by Dan2nd

Man I got told Lol. I do however think atheists are normally first to point he finger towards certain religions when it comes to terrorism

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Hmmmm, dont think so. There is no bias to religions with athiesm, thus there is no tendency to point the finger at any specific religion. Other religions have conflicts with other religions.


And Ill just say my favorite quote ever: "Religion is a source of comfort and strength in a world torn apart by religion" ~ Jon Stewart

I believe if there were no religion in the world, ever, the world in general would be a much better place. However, since we actually do have religion, people should believe what they want as long as their practice doesnt interfere or cause danger and havoc on the population.

But there is no place for religion in government. I am 100% for the complete seperation of church and state.

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Originally Posted by RedStratocas

Untrue. There is nothing to offend to people who dont have a religion, is there? There is nothing you can say to an athiest that offends their beliefs. They dont believe in god, there isnt anything there so they arent touchy about it. People who believe in god are much more sensitive about their beliefs, because there is actually something there to offend.


[B]
Hmmmm, dont think so. There is no bias to religions with athiesm, thus there is no tendency to point the finger at any specific religion. Other religions have conflicts with other religions.
[B]

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Actually they get offended by religion if I said God created the Earth evolution dosn't exist I would get a ton of scientists jump down my throat

to bold:Ok then what about when someone made that thread about wintervill or what ever how many people who were athiests straight away made some kind of refrences to muslims?

(names removed)

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Birmingham is overun with Asias and Blacks most whom are Muslims.

Ive heard about this sort of stuff before happening in Birmingham and it's pathetic.

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I am bloody FED UP of muslims and other cultures, barging into england, which is a CHRISTIANIC country, wrecking all our celebrations and ruining it all. They get things like Diwali, let us have Christmas... If they don't like it, they should go back to THEIR country. :(

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This is stupid, just because the other religions suddenly bombing places we can't even have a traditional christmas.

Church parking isn't free anymore because it's "unfair on the muslims".

So what? Christian country.

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and thats only a few and I know what you going to ask next how do I know their atheists well from the pole in the thread ' what is your religion' over 80% of posters said they were atheists ad if you balance the number of replys you get an idea( guesstemet)

I actually found a video on youtube which frankly I found discusting and it was by a Christen minister it was basically saying anyone who isn't christien is a satenist (sp?) which I strongly disagree with which is why i think you should be free the have any beleifs you want

Well back to the original question.

My view is that religion is perfectly fine as long as it isn't shoved down the throats of other people, which is where problems come in.

Which, unfortunately is something that seems to be happening a lot in Britain these days with a Labour government which is bending over backwards for the minority but not thinking about the majority.

Religion is not the problem, other people's attitudes towards it are.

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Originally Posted by Dan2nd

Actually they get offended by religion if I said God created the Earth evolution dosn't exist I would get a ton of scientists jump down my throat

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If you went up to a tree an insisted it was in fact a duck, youd also gotalot of people disagree, scientists tend to prove there point though, no leap of faith is necessarily. You may get a few idiots who dont know what there talking about, but there not scientists, and even the people who argue sensibly and have an understanding of the issues are still are not scientists there just people who disagree and will prove in reality it is otherwize.

Evolition can be demonstarted in a lab. Even bird flue is proof since it is a virus that evolved.

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to bold:Ok then what about when someone made that thread about wintervill or what ever how many people who were athiests straight away made some kind of refrences to muslims?

(names removed)

and thats only a few and I know what you going to ask next how do I know their atheists well from the pole in the thread ' what is your religion' over 80% of posters said they were atheists ad if you balance the number of replys you get an idea( guesstemet)

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No the racists, and idiots, that has little to do with being athiest, you get rasit theists and athists.
An athiest really cant argue that this is a christian conatry ether, since an aithiest wouldnt be celibrateing the birth of christs, just celibating the midwinter festival.

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I actually found a video on youtube which frankly I found discusting and it was by a Christen minister it was basically saying anyone who isn't christien is a satanist (sp?) which I strongly disagree with which is why i think you should be free the have any beleifs you want

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You get that, its called the fundamentlists, there the sort of people who thank got for the sunarmi, and firebomb abortion clincs and pretty much make up the ranks of all terrorists, whether the fundamentalist; christians, muslims or something else.
This is what i belive is the danger of religion. A normal faith, is not a problem and as i said orignaly, i belive a theistic belief isnt necessarily a bad thing and can be benifical to some people.

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Originally Posted by 01101101entor

If you went up to a tree an insisted it was in fact a duck, youd also gotalot of people disagree, scientists tend to prove there point though, no leap of faith is necessarily. You may get a few idiots who dont know what there talking about, but there not scientists, and even the people who argue sensibly and have an understanding of the issues are still are not scientists there just people who disagree and will prove in reality it is otherwize.

Evolition can be demonstarted in a lab. Even bird flue is proof since it is a virus that evolved.


No the racists, and idiots, that has little to do with being athiest, you get rasit theists and athists.
An athiest really cant argue that this is a christian conatry ether, since an aithiest wouldnt be celibrateing the birth of christs, just celibating the midwinter festival.

You get that, its called the fundamentlists, there the sort of people who thank got for the sunarmi, and firebomb abortion clincs and pretty much make up the ranks of all terrorists, whether the fundamentalist; christians, muslims or something else.
This is what i belive is the danger of religion. A normal faith, is not a problem and as i said orignaly, i belive a theistic belief isnt necessarily a bad thing and can be benifical to some people.

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Lol you know your stuff man I'm pulling out of this debate because your words keep getting longer and out of my brain range :P

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Originally Posted by Spuddee_x

Well back to the original question.

My view is that religion is perfectly fine as long as it isn't shoved down the throats of other people, which is where problems come in.

Which, unfortunately is something that seems to be happening a lot in Britain these days with a Labour government which is bending over backwards for the minority but not thinking about the majority.

Religion is not the problem, other people's attitudes towards it are.

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one more thing I'm a religous guy but no one at college really knows =]

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Originally Posted by Dan2nd

Actually they get offended by religion if I said God created the Earth evolution dosn't exist I would get a ton of scientists jump down my throat

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That doesnt mean they are offended, thats just called arguement. If you told me that clouds were made out of marshmellows, and I tell you they arent, and I have proof, that doesnt mean Im offended by you saying that.

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Originally Posted by Dan2nd

to bold:Ok then what about when someone made that thread about wintervill or what ever how many people who were athiests straight away made some kind of refrences to muslims?

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What? There were just as many christians saying that as everyone else, that isnt an arguement.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

I don't really fear a religious dark age as such, as we're too far past that for it to happen.

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Yeah I agree with this, the dark age was just a matter of ignorance, ignorance to believe that there is an explanation which doesnt rely on a higher being

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Originally Posted by Dan2nd

Man I got told Lol. I do however think atheists are normally first to point he finger towards certain religions when it comes to terrorism

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But do you think that these terrorist use god as an excuse, the minority that are muslim extremist seem to use gods name to justify their actions in a similar way George W Bush has also been known to make many referals to "God" in his speechs which he has used to base his actions/motions upon.

But back to the topic on hand,

Is there are spiritual being controlling our lives or is it predetermined before our existance or is it based on our own personal choices?

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No the racists, and idiots, that has little to do with being athiest, you get rasit theists and athists.
An athiest really cant argue that this is a christian conatry ether, since an aithiest wouldnt be celibrateing the birth of christs, just celibating the midwinter festival.

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With you completely there, I would actually say there's more racist theists than atheists. For example the Christian and Muslim communities might not get on (which is strange when they are both very similar and hold many of the same views; monotheism etc etc), whereas an atheist would just not join in argument and confrontation with (other) religious groups.

Yes, organised religion does cause conflict and tensions within our society, and I myself put this down to people wearing their religions as badges of honour almost. A Christian doesn't want Muslim doorknockers in the same way the Muslim doesn't want people to try and convert them to Christianity. When people take up 'my religion is better than yours' views, that is when the problems occur, private religious practise can be a very beneficial thing, but it should only be made public within the correct community.

Myself, I am agnostic, my mother was a strong Catholic and my dad an atheist, I suppose it's like a happy medium. The reason that I'm not atheist is probably because the Catholic ideologies that were drilled into me as a child have stuck with me slightly. But whatever, that’s not the point, my point is religion when it is forced to between different communities causes racism, probably more so that atheism.

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Originally Posted by Jin

Yeah I agree with this, the dark age was just a matter of ignorance, ignorance to believe that there is an explanation which doesnt rely on a higher being




But do you think that these terrorist use god as an excuse, the minority that are muslim extremist seem to use gods name to justify their actions in a similar way George W Bush has also been known to make many referals to "God" in his speechs which he has used to base his actions/motions upon.

But back to the topic on hand,

Is there are spiritual being controlling our lives or is it predetermined before our existance or is it based on our own personal choices?

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Terrorists definatly use religion as a weapon when hiring "staff" and they also usually aim for the uneducated or those that are having a very bad life and hope for a better life after they are dead.

I think people are free to believe in whatever they want to and some people just take this freedom over board by fighting for their belief in a war or whatever.

If they are showing there faith by for example, when they are alone or in there holy building, I don't find that wrong, as it's for your own, but if you 'believe' in God just to show of or anything like that then I find it wrong.

Personally i uset to believe in 'God' as such, but ever since i lost my uncle, and my family has come under harm times, i stopped beliving in it. I believe that life is what you make it, and that things happen for a reason, not because God points his finger and smites us down.

Theres many flaws in christianity itself, i mean theres two versions of the so called 'Bible' the new and old testament, and that it was passed down by that many people, half of it is so exagerated anyways, so how can we believe half the stuff thats in it?

I'd also like to point out that its been scientificly proven that Adam and Eve could of been two tiny microscopic orgasims on a plant or anything, 'God' created no-one.

My entire family really lost faith when my grandma, a very huge catholic, died on christmas day (we were never really religious before, but this took the cake)

Everyone has the right to believe in what they want. But I agree with the person who said that people who go to war just to fight for what they believe is going abit overboard.

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Originally Posted by Herman

Everyone has the right to believe in what they want. But I agree with the person who said that people who go to war just to fight for what they believe is going abit overboard.

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That's stupid; people believed in freedom and so thought wars so you could have it, at least choose a sensible example.

If I was a religious person and someone began slaying my people, I would fight back, if you don't you probably have issues.