Who should win the next General Election? [ENDS 07/02/2010]

Who should win the next General Election?

Ends 08 / 02 / 2010

The next General Election in the UK is due to take place on or before 3rd June 2010. The three main parties in this election are Labour, the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats. There are also a selection of other parties who will be involved, for more information on these click here. Each party offer a different manifesto that will change the way our country is run in a variety of different ways.

The question is, who do you think should win the next general election (and why?)

NOTE: Who you THINK will win is irrelevant, it's who you think SHOULD win.

Well to start this one off, I think there's who I think should win the next general election and who will win the next general election.

In my personal opinion I'm sticking with Labour, simply because none of the other parties interest me. Although Labour may have its' faults, it's not just supportive of middle class and higher.

Conservatives will win the next election although I don't think David Cameron is the right man for the job.

:).

Like Ardemax said, who I want to win the next election and who I think will win the election are different parties.

Labour is who I will be voting for because I simply don't view them as being as bad as they are made out to be. The Conservatives will be worse for the lower classes and for that reason I dread the day David Cameron becomes PM because the way I see it the majority of people will vote Conservative because of how Labour have been portrayed recently. It's not right and David Cameron is possibly the worst image of this country I can think of but nevertheless I don't see any other outcome. I certainly won't be wasting my vote though, Labour will get it in the hope of a miracle.

I'm pretty much going to agree with the two previous posts in this thread. As much as I don't want it to happen it is very likely that the Tories will come into power, come Summer. Labour and Gordon Brown aren't stupid, they know they've made mistakes and if they're re-elected I imagine that they'd get a new leader who will revitalise Labour and act as a breath of fresh air throughout the party. I don't think Gordon Brown has done a bad job, unfortunately I just think his image has been unfairly tarnished and he won't be able to rectify this in the eyes of the public.

I know this isn't the best way of looking at it but I believe that Labour should win because for as long as I've been actively concious of politics, they've been in charge and I haven't had a bad life. I've had decent education, health care, travel, opportunities and when things haven't been great within my family their policies have made sure we've been OK. For example, when my parents split, my Mum took half of what the house was worth when they moved in, she could've taken half of the current value which would've been considerably more but she didn't want us to struggle. We had council accommodation, free school meals and I'm sure my Dad got all sort of financial aid. Sure, the Tories and other parties might do this but I can imagine them making it a lot harder, which will affect families who do need help, it won't just stop the cheats but hinder families who are struggling.

I live with the mentality don't fix what isn't broken, why change when just by living in this country we're given a life and opportunities that the majority of the world aren't. People would do well to remember that.

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Originally Posted by Immenseman

I'm pretty much going to agree with the two previous posts in this thread. As much as I don't want it to happen it is very likely that the Tories will come into power, come Summer. Labour and Gordon Brown aren't stupid, they know they've made mistakes and if they're re-elected I imagine that they'd get a new leader who will revitalise Labour and act as a breath of fresh air throughout the party. I don't think Gordon Brown has done a bad job, unfortunately I just think his image has been unfairly tarnished and he won't be able to rectify this in the eyes of the public.

I know this isn't the best way of looking at it but I believe that Labour should win because for as long as I've been actively concious of politics, they've been in charge and I haven't had a bad life. I've had decent education, health care, travel, opportunities and when things haven't been great within my family their policies have made sure we've been OK. For example, when my parents split, my Mum took half of what the house was worth when they moved in, she could've taken half of the current value which would've been considerably more but she didn't want us to struggle. We had council accommodation, free school meals and I'm sure my Dad got all sort of financial aid. Sure, the Tories and other parties might do this but I can imagine them making it a lot harder, which will affect families who do need help, it won't just stop the cheats but hinder families who are struggling.

I live with the mentality don't fix what isn't broken, why change when just by living in this country we're given a life and opportunities that the majority of the world aren't. People would do well to remember that.

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I fully agree with Jake on the fact that for the past thirteen years Labour have done me no harm, and people may say "well they've killed X amount of people by sending soldiers to Iraq", so you're telling me Michael Howard wouldn't have done the same if he was in power? Whoever had been elected in 1997, things like Iraq would have still happened, if the Tories had been elected then there would be so much less for the lower classes.

It can't be forgotten that the Conservative Party are very much pro-middle/upper class.

I saw someone make one of those silly David Cameron posters but it said "I'll cut taxes, but probably not yours".

I agree with Jake, we shouldn't fix what isnt broken. Labour haven't given us a bad life over the past 13 years.

Before people start blaming Labour for the Recession or MP expenses:

Recession: The economy goes up, the economy goes down, it fluctuates and a recession has been due for quite a while and it was world wide and nobody's fault.

MP Expenses row was not Labour's fault either, the original PM expenses "rule" (or lack of them) came from Parliamentary doctrine from years ago, so not really Labours fault.

I feel that many silly people will fail to vote labour because of those two reasons alone, which is stupid really because they were things out of Labour's control.

I will be voting Labour however I disagree with the others, following David Cameron's recent policy reversals I think he has lost a lot of fans.

The Conservatives have the potential to win the next election, however I don't think David Cameron is the man that will make it happen, he's too much of a controversial figure and I think this may harm the Tories popularity.

I want UKIP to win the next General Election. :)

Edited by Nicola (Forum Moderator): Please back up your answers. Debate forum rules - http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=617161

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Originally Posted by Immenseman

I'm pretty much going to agree with the two previous posts in this thread. As much as I don't want it to happen it is very likely that the Tories will come into power, come Summer. Labour and Gordon Brown aren't stupid, they know they've made mistakes and if they're re-elected I imagine that they'd get a new leader who will revitalise Labour and act as a breath of fresh air throughout the party. I don't think Gordon Brown has done a bad job, unfortunately I just think his image has been unfairly tarnished and he won't be able to rectify this in the eyes of the public.

I know this isn't the best way of looking at it but I believe that Labour should win because for as long as I've been actively concious of politics, they've been in charge and I haven't had a bad life. I've had decent education, health care, travel, opportunities and when things haven't been great within my family their policies have made sure we've been OK. For example, when my parents split, my Mum took half of what the house was worth when they moved in, she could've taken half of the current value which would've been considerably more but she didn't want us to struggle. We had council accommodation, free school meals and I'm sure my Dad got all sort of financial aid. Sure, the Tories and other parties might do this but I can imagine them making it a lot harder, which will affect families who do need help, it won't just stop the cheats but hinder families who are struggling.

I live with the mentality don't fix what isn't broken, why change when just by living in this country we're given a life and opportunities that the majority of the world aren't. People would do well to remember that.

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The problem is, it is broken.

We are heading for another 1979 whether or not the left want to accept this, money does not fall from the sky and theres an end to everything. The Labour Party has never been for the working classes, only for itself just like all other left-wing parties in history.

Labour have taken us into an illegal war which has killed over one million innocent people, Labour has made schools 'better' by making exams easier, Labour has thrown millions at the NHS which has just gone to waste through hospital building scandel. Labour has allowed thousands of criminals on the streets to re-offend. Labour has signed away more and more powers to the European Union year on year. Labour went back on a promise to hold a referendum on European reformal. Labour has destroyed more and more of our civil liberties in the name of the 'war on terror'. Labour has no control over our borders. Labour continues year on year to give away billions to useless causes/other countries. Labour has put taxes futher and futher up year by year. Labour has introduced 'equality' laws which mean people get jobs not because of their ability, but based their race, sexuality or disability. Labour sold billions worth of gold reserves for a measley price when gaining office. Labour have introduced thouands and thousands of pages worth of legislation every year since gaining office punishing the victim, not the offender. Labour have hired hundreds of thousands, if not millions more public-sector workers to introduce more red-tape on the people of this country.

They are the most utterly corrupt and out of touch group of people in this country, they cannot answer a simple question, do not represent what the man on the street wants or desires and they couldn't run a sweet job if they tried. Look at it this way, if this country was a business; it would of closed a long time ago.

The Conservatives, historically have saved the country time and time again most notably when gaining office in 1979 which saw the United Kingdom go from a poor and declining state into a modern great power from the fallout from WW2 and the disbanding of the Empire. While i'd like to wish and hope that David Cameron can do the same was Thatcher did, I can't see it. He is truly the heir to Blair, we are only voting in Blu Labour instead of New Labour.

Who should win? - UKIP or a party which represents real Conservatism, for the individual and not the state. The difference between left and right is the state or the individual in a nutshell.

Should our country surrender more and more powers to the unelected European Union?

Should our country hand over billions and billions to other countries, useless causes and the EU every year?

Should this country refuse to hold referendums on issues such as the European Union/death penalty and the out-of-touch MPs decide on our behalf?

Should this country continue rewarding layabouts and punish hard workers via tax rises?

Should this country continue to have open borders which allow anyone to enter this country?

Should this country continue to allow our government to surrender our civil liberties in the name of security?

Should this country continue to splash out when it cannot afford it?

Should this country benefit people based on their race, sexuality or status rather than reward people based on hard work only?

If the answer is yes to these, then vote Lib/Lab/Con.
If the answer you find is no to these, then vote UKIP.

The sad fact is that until we have voting reform then parties such as UKIP and others will struggle to gain any seats at all, but given the choice between the Conservatives, Labour and the Liberal Democrats i'd rather not vote. I found a great poll tool which shows who you genuinely support/agree with; http://www.takethequiz.co.uk/

Answer the questions how you feel, not what you think your party you support now feels.

I got;

Labour 22%

Conservative 51%

Greens 30%

LibDem 22%

UKIP 95%

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a few BNP seats you know....

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Originally Posted by Technologic

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a few BNP seats you know....

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Me neither, although the system to get a seat in Parliament is a lot harder than getting a seat in European Parliament, but I'm pretty sure we could be seeing one or two seats going to those Nazis. That's all we need, Nick Griffin an MP.

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Originally Posted by invincible

Me neither, although the system to get a seat in Parliament is a lot harder than getting a seat in European Parliament, but I'm pretty sure we could be seeing one or two seats going to those Nazis. That's all we need, Nick Griffin an MP.

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Although i'm sure Mr Griffin would want to raise important issues such as the EU, death penalty and immigration whereas the socialists in that chamber at the moment avoid discussing at all costs. In other words, do what he was elected to do.

Doesn't matter, it always sways between labour and tories because there's no way to please everyone. British society has always been miserable under either, maybe it's just part of our culture. Anyway like Churchill says "if you're not a liberal when you're 20 you have no heart, if you're not a conservative when you're 40 you have no brain", people's political views change when they get older and have to deal with different social/economic problems.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Although i'm sure Mr Griffin would want to raise important issues such as the EU, death penalty and immigration whereas the socialists in that chamber at the moment avoid discussing at all costs. In other words, do what he was elected to do.

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Sorry, so he'd come in and start spurting his racist crap. Like Jake said, don't fix things that aren't broken.

The fact we don't have the death penalty = doesn't need changing
EU = doesn't need changing, it will be beneficial for our economy in the long run
Immigration = not an issue.

Nick Griffin is an absolute imbecile, support UKIP all you wish but to go as far to say Nick Griffin would be good in a parliamentary seat, I have to question your sanity.

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Originally Posted by invincible

Sorry, so he'd come in and start spurting his racist crap. Like Jake said, don't fix things that aren't broken.

The fact we don't have the death penalty = doesn't need changing
EU = doesn't need changing, it will be beneficial for our economy in the long run
Immigration = not an issue.

Nick Griffin is an absolute imbecile, support UKIP all you wish but to go as far to say Nick Griffin would be good in a parliamentary seat, I have to question your sanity.

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Yes, lets just hope the European Union is going to be benefitcial because you know all the evidence points to it making our country worse off, but because Labour/the left support it you also support it. If you think a unelected, undemocratic, federalist organisation which creates over 80% of our laws is good, I would ask you to question your own sanity rather than that of mine.

You may not think immigration is an issue, but the majority of people in this country do. This is the problem here, the left who are incharge get their way, not what the guy on the street wants. I don't agree with everything the BNP say or Nick Griffin says, but I know the general gist of his message is what rings with the public of this country. The arrogance of the political elite to tackle the EU/immigration/crime will only give the extreme support, and hence why the BNP is hitting the headlines more and more.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Yes, lets just hope the European Union is going to be benefitcial because you know all the evidence points to it making our country worse off, but because Labour/the left support it you also support it. If you think a unelected, undemocratic, federalist organisation which creates over 80% of our laws is good, I would ask you to question your own sanity rather than that of mine.

You may not think immigration is an issue, but the majority of people in this country do. This is the problem here, the left who are incharge get their way, not what the guy on the street wants. I don't agree with everything the BNP say or Nick Griffin says, but I know the general gist of his message is what rings with the public of this country. The arrogance of the political elite to tackle the EU/immigration/crime will only give the extreme support, and hence why the BNP is hitting the headlines more and more.

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Sorry to wade in on this, but just because he is representing what some people think does not make his views correct. I'm sure Nick Griffin is capable of implenting some good policies but i'm pretty confident his racist ones would cancel out the good he does. He's vile from the core.

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Originally Posted by Tash.

Sorry to wade in on this, but just because he is representing what some people think does not make his views correct. I'm sure Nick Griffin is capable of implenting some good policies but i'm pretty confident his racist ones would cancel out the good he does. He's vile from the core.

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The general gist of his views are correct;-

• No EU control over British affairs.
• Stop uncontrolled immigration.

The extreme points of his views I do not agree with, but what he says i'm afraid the sad reality is that it rings a bell with the majority of people more than that of what the Lib/Lab/Con elite say. As shown by invincibles opinion that immigration and the EU are 'fine' it shows how out of touch the left of which he supports is, and always has been with politics in this country. If Nick Griffin could bring up these issues in Parliament then he has done his job, his general gist of view is representing the mainstream view that we have had enough of sweeping EU controls and we have had enough of uncontrolled immigration.

If any party was to get in, I'd hate to seem them discussing something like the death penalty within the first year. There's just way more important issues.

I got...

Labour 28%
Conservative 62%
Greens 35%
LibDem 36%
UKIP 77%

So yeah, UKIP please. :)

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

The general gist of his views are correct;-

• No EU control over British affairs.
• Stop uncontrolled immigration.

The extreme points of his views I do not agree with, but what he says i'm afraid the sad reality is that it rings a bell with the majority of people more than that of what the Lib/Lab/Con elite say. As shown by invincibles opinion that immigration and the EU are 'fine' it shows how out of touch the left of which he supports is, and always has been with politics in this country. If Nick Griffin could bring up these issues in Parliament then he has done his job, his general gist of view is representing the mainstream view that we have had enough of sweeping EU controls and we have had enough of uncontrolled immigration.

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How does Invincibles comments show that the left is out of touch? Oli isn't a left-wing politician, he's a member of the electorate like me or you and it is his opinion that immigration is ok as it is and so is our participation in the EU. I personally agree with him, I don't see a need for us to withdraw from the EU at all. The only reason that the immigration policy rings a bell with the 'majority of people' as you put it (though how you can claim this without proof I don't know) is because of the current economic situation. When things get tight people panic and they start to blame it on things that aren't actually anything to do with the situation in the first place. Many people don't even understand the EU so to argue that they're against it is just ignorance of something they don't get. You have had enough of sweeping EU controls and you have had enough of uncontrolled immigration, you can't speak on behalf of the majority of people until you can prove that it is their opinion too. And no, the only thing Nic Griffin has in mind is to rid this country of what he sees to be an unwanted number of people. He's racist to the core and the minute he gets any kind of control on this country I am seeking a way out.

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Originally Posted by Ardemax

If any party was to get in, I'd hate to seem them discussing something like the death penalty within the first year. There's just way more important issues.

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You are right, thats why i'd hold a referendum on EU membership as soon as I gained office as it then means as soon as we have left the European Union we can then hold a referendum on the death penalty as our country could then legally have the power to introduce a policy which its people wanted (if the referendum passed, which it most likely would).

That is why the EU is the most important issue facing this country, you can't seriously tackle anything in Britain without tackling the EU first. Its either the EU way or the publics way, and i'd like the people of this country to be allowed to decide their own future and their own policies.

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Originally Posted by Tash.

How does Invincibles comments show that the left is out of touch? Oli isn't a left-wing politician, he's a member of the electorate like me or you and it is his opinion that immigration is ok as it is and so is our participation in the EU. I personally agree with him, I don't see a need for us to withdraw from the EU at all. The only reason that the immigration policy rings a bell with the 'majority of people' as you put it (though how you can claim this without proof I don't know) is because of the current economic situation. When things get tight people panic and they start to blame it on things that aren't actually anything to do with the situation in the first place. Many people don't even understand the EU so to argue that they're against it is just ignorance of something they don't get. You have had enough of sweeping EU controls and you have had enough of uncontrolled immigration, you can't speak on behalf of the majority of people until you can prove that it is their opinion too. And no, the only thing Nic Griffin has in mind is to rid this country of what he sees to be an unwanted number of people. He's racist to the core and the minute he gets any kind of control on this country I am seeking a way out.

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His post which says the EU and immigration are not major issues shows how the left does not want to debate these issues which many people think are the most important issues facing this country right now. On the EU, here we ago again - you are telling me that the people of this country are too stupid to decide whether or not the EU is good or bad for us. In that case then, why on earth do we bother having elections? (your logic, not mine).

I can simply say that immigration and the EU are the top priorities, you hear it everywhere - on the playgrounds, in the pubs and the voting figures show it aswell. Nobody bothers to vote anymore because they know no matter what they do, these issues will not be tackled. There is no difference between the three major parties, they are all the same. In the European Parliamentary Elections in 2009 UKIP came second, if that would of been a general election then right now we would have Conservative government and UKIP in opposition - sadly this is not possible with the FPTP voting system.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

His post which says the EU and immigration are not major issues shows how the left does not want to debate these issues which many people think are the most important issues facing this country right now. On the EU, here we ago again - you are telling me that the people of this country are too stupid to decide whether or not the EU is good or bad for us. In that case then, why on earth do we bother having elections? (your logic, not mine).

I can simply say that immigration and the EU are the top priorities, you hear it everywhere - on the playgrounds, in the pubs and the voting figures show it aswell. Nobody bothers to vote anymore because they know no matter what they do, these issues will not be tackled. There is no difference between the three major parties, they are all the same. In the European Parliamentary Elections in 2009 UKIP came second, if that would of been a general election then right now we would have Conservative government and UKIP in opposition - sadly this is not possible with the FPTP voting system.

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I am aware of the fact that for some people the EU and immigration are a big factor, so no it isn't the failure of the left to debate those issues. I know of these issues and it is my opinion that they aren't an issue, or at least as big as some people will have you believe. And yes, that is what i'm saying. The EU is a complicated issue and being the age that I am I mingle with alot of others of a similar age, and I can tell you that alot of people are not interested in learning about it. With that in mind, how can they possibly understand it? You vote in a government who will pick people to represent these issues and whom have the correct knowledge to deal with them. So of course they can vote for who they want to deal with the issues.

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Originally Posted by Tash.

I am aware of the fact that for some people the EU and immigration are a big factor, so no it isn't the failure of the left to debate those issues. I know of these issues and it is my opinion that they aren't an issue, or at least as big as some people will have you believe. And yes, that is what i'm saying. The EU is a complicated issue and being the age that I am I mingle with alot of others of a similar age, and I can tell you that alot of people are not interested in learning about it. With that in mind, how can they possibly understand it? You vote in a government who will pick people to represent these issues and whom have the correct knowledge to deal with them. So of course they can vote for who they want to deal with the issues.

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It is the failure of the left to listen and debate these issues, the public opinion on these issues is so clear it is unbelieveable, yet nothing is done because we are 'too stupid' to understand how great the EU and uncontrolled immigration is for us. On the European Union, my friend who doesn't know much at all about politics is doing law, the other day he mentioned the EU and said how he thinks its bad that a unelected organisation can create laws for this very country - thats coming from somebody who doesn't even know what left/right politics are. You only are using the excuse that 'not many people understand it' because in reality, a lot of people understand it and want out.

"We have not overthrown the divine right of kings to fall down for the divine right of experts." - Harold MacMillan

Most people do not read political manifestos, does that mean we should deny giving people a say in elections aswell? - no, it does not.

No, I don't believe the EU is the biggest problem.

If we think about it, by staying with it for say, 2 years, we're not losing out on a lot and in that time we could be tackling the wars we're currently in, the terror threat and crime.

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Originally Posted by Ardemax

No, I don't believe the EU is the biggest problem.

If we think about it, by staying with it for say, 2 years, we're not losing out on a lot and in that time we could be tackling the wars we're currently in, the terror threat and crime.

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Crime - cannot tackle properly without leaving the European Union as EU legislation is entangled in that area now and is ever-growing.
Terrorism - cannot be tackled properly without leaving the European Union as our borders cannot be closed due to EU legislation.

In the space of two years, both the state and business would save what has been estimated to be hundreds of billions by the United Kingdom leaving the European Union. This is why its such an important issue, it is impossible to do anything properly without either leaving the European Union or demanding powers back instantly upon forming a government.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

It is the failure of the left to listen and debate these issues, the public opinion on these issues is so clear it is unbelieveable, yet nothing is done because we are 'too stupid' to understand how great the EU and uncontrolled immigration is for us. On the European Union, my friend who doesn't know much at all about politics is doing law, the other day he mentioned the EU and said how he thinks its bad that a unelected organisation can create laws for this very country - thats coming from somebody who doesn't even know what left/right politics are. You only are using the excuse that 'not many people understand it' because in reality, a lot of people understand it and want out.

"We have not overthrown the divine right of kings to fall down for the divine right of experts." - Harold MacMillan

Most people do not read political manifestos, does that mean we should deny giving people a say in elections aswell? - no, it does not.

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The example you just gave is not of a person who doesn't know what they are talking about. My own knowledge comes from the things I was taught at A-Level Law, so to claim him as an example is wrong. I'm talking about those who don't follow politics and don't do qualifications such as Law, Govt & Pol because those types of people don't understand the EU. I will use my own parents as an example. One is 55, the other 49 and I actually attempted a conversation with my mother the other day about the EU and her knowledge she admitted was limited. My mum is not a dumb person and she doesn't lack common sense yet she is confused by the issues the EU poses. My comment about people having a lack of knowledge was not lightly used as I include members of my own family within this bracket, it wasn't meant to offend the public it's just the truth. The fact that people don't read the manifestos of a political party before voting is largely irrelevant because no matter who you vote in they are going to consult experts on the issues anyway so nothing too bad is going to happen (unless of course you vote in a party who just puts everything to a referendum, then I can see a problem).

Dan, how can you even think that holding referendums left right and centre like UKIP propose is a good idea? You can say what you want but people won't think it through. How awful would it be if the death penalty was reimplemented? It'd be dreadful, at least I have trust in the tories and lib dems that any changes they make will be because they think it benefits the majority of people. I can not say that for UKIP who seem to want us to undo all the changes that makes this country what it is. Setting a good example to the rest of the world, diversity and uniting with other nations to make the world a better place.

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Originally Posted by Tash.

The example you just gave is not of a person who doesn't know what they are talking about. My own knowledge comes from the things I was taught at A-Level Law, so to claim him as an example is wrong. I'm talking about those who don't follow politics and don't do qualifications such as Law, Govt & Pol because those types of people don't understand the EU. I will use my own parents as an example. One is 55, the other 49 and I actually attempted a conversation with my mother the other day about the EU and her knowledge she admitted was limited. My mum is not a dumb person and she doesn't lack common sense yet she is confused by the issues the EU poses. My comment about people having a lack of knowledge was not lightly used as I include members of my own family within this bracket, it wasn't meant to offend the public it's just the truth. The fact that people don't read the manifestos of a political party before voting is largely irrelevant because no matter who you vote in they are going to consult experts on the issues anyway so nothing too bad is going to happen (unless of course you vote in a party who just puts everything to a referendum, then I can see a problem).

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You only oppose a referendum because the things you stand for, the majority of us do not stand for. You are now trying to dodge it, face it; you do not want the people of this country to have referendums over subjects such as the European Union and the death penalty because you know what the outcome would be. The whole point of democracy is that the people have a input into how the country is run, you are suggesting the opposite. You say there are problems with allowing the people to vote directly on issues, Switzerland runs referendums and is supposed to be considered one of the best countries in Europe by reputation.

Do not deny the right of people to decide their own future just because you disagree with what the majority opinion is, thats what all dictators have done in history. It is pure arrogance, 'you dont understand so you have no right to have an opinion/vote on this matter' - that is basically what you are saying. It is not hard to find out what the European Union is for, past PMs (even those who supported the European project) have stated that they knew and know fully well that a European Federal state is being created which means the countries of the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Kingdom of Spain and the rest of Europe will cease to exist and the European Union will become the nation we live in. MEPs openly say this from across Europe, infact the past Presidents of the Commission have also said this.

In short, people are not stupid. You may not be directly calling them stupid, but you sure are implying that.

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Dan, how can you even think that holding referendums left right and centre like UKIP propose is a good idea? You can say what you want but people won't think it through. How awful would it be if the death penalty was reimplemented? It'd be dreadful, at least I have trust in the tories and lib dems that any changes they make will be because they think it benefits the majority of people. I can not say that for UKIP who seem to want us to undo all the changes that makes this country what it is. Setting a good example to the rest of the world, diversity and uniting with other nations to make the world a better place.

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It would be awful in your opinion Jake, and thats what I am getting at and what UKIP are getting at. It is not you who should decide, it is not the unelected left who should decide - it is the people who should decide. As shown again by your post, you cannot seem to accept what people want. You continue to support a political elite who are out of touch and you also now appear to support a Federal Europe in the name of 'diversity' - well i'm sorry, the words diversity and uniting are mere subsitutes for big government and dictatoral policy.

Just accept that the people should decide how they live and how their future will stem, that afterall is why we fought two world wars and a cold war for that very right.

Lib dems, think they're the most trustworthy and their policies are actually beneficial to people.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Crime - cannot tackle properly without leaving the European Union as EU legislation is entangled in that area now and is ever-growing.
Terrorism - cannot be tackled properly without leaving the European Union as our borders cannot be closed due to EU legislation.

In the space of two years, both the state and business would save what has been estimated to be hundreds of billions by the United Kingdom leaving the European Union. This is why its such an important issue, it is impossible to do anything properly without either leaving the European Union or demanding powers back instantly upon forming a government.

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I'm sorry but not all terrorists are from abroad? A british terrorist attacked the capital in the past few years.
And yes we can tackle crime without leaving the EU.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

You only oppose a referendum because the things you stand for, the majority of us do not stand for. You are now trying to dodge it, face it; you do not want the people of this country to have referendums over subjects such as the European Union and the death penalty because you know what the outcome would be. The whole point of democracy is that the people have a input into how the country is run, you are suggesting the opposite. You say there are problems with allowing the people to vote directly on issues, Switzerland runs referendums and is supposed to be considered one of the best countries in Europe by reputation.

Do not deny the right of people to decide their own future just because you disagree with what the majority opinion is, thats what all dictators have done in history. It is pure arrogance, 'you dont understand so you have no right to have an opinion/vote on this matter' - that is basically what you are saying. It is not hard to find out what the European Union is for, past PMs (even those who supported the European project) have stated that they knew and know fully well that a European Federal state is being created which means the countries of the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Kingdom of Spain and the rest of Europe will cease to exist and the European Union will become the nation we live in. MEPs openly say this from across Europe, infact the past Presidents of the Commission have also said this.

In short, people are not stupid. You may not be directly calling them stupid, but you sure are implying that.

It would be awful in your opinion Jake, and thats what I am getting at and what UKIP are getting at. It is not you who should decide, it is not the unelected left who should decide - it is the people who should decide. As shown again by your post, you cannot seem to accept what people want. You continue to support a political elite who are out of touch and you also now appear to support a Federal Europe in the name of 'diversity' - well i'm sorry, the words diversity and uniting are mere subsitutes for big government and dictatoral policy.

Just accept that the people should decide how they live and how their future will stem, that afterall is why we fought two world wars and a cold war for that very right.

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You're doing it again, you can't talk on behalf of the majority. No referendums have been held on these things and therefore you can't talk on behalf of the majority anymore than I can. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say no, I do not think that it is a good idea to have referendums on these issues because the public in general do not understand the depth of them. There i've said it. I don't know what the outcome would be, I have an idea of what it would be and I know that if I was right it'd be out of ignorance. Switzerland is not the UK, they have their own issues and they aren't in the same position as us because they are nowhere near as big of an economic power.

And finally, if I want to believe that the majority of people in the UK don't understand the EU I can. It is my opinion and I believe that they are ignorant of it and believe what they read in the media. Easily swayed and dangerous if there is a referendum.

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Originally Posted by Ardemax

I'm sorry but not all terrorists are from abroad? A british terrorist attacked the capital in the past few years.
And yes we can tackle crime without leaving the EU.

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Of course they are not, thats exactly why we should stop extremists coming into this country who are breeding extremism in this country. On the last part, yes crime, justice & the courts are all a big part of the control the European Union has over this country. You cannot tackle anything seriously without first tackling the European Union and its legislation.

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Originally Posted by Tash.

You're doing it again, you can't talk on behalf of the majority. No referendums have been held on these things and therefore you can't talk on behalf of the majority anymore than I can. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say no, I do not think that it is a good idea to have referendums on these issues because the public in general do not understand the depth of them. There i've said it. I don't know what the outcome would be, I have an idea of what it would be and I know that if I was right it'd be out of ignorance. Switzerland is not the UK, they have their own issues and they aren't in the same position as us because they are nowhere near as big of an economic power.

And finally, if I want to believe that the majority of people in the UK don't understand the EU I can. It is my opinion and I believe that they are ignorant of it and believe what they read in the media. Easily swayed and dangerous if there is a referendum.

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Opinion polls have been held on these subjects and the latest PR election we had, UKIP came second in. Therefore when concerning the European Union and the death penalty I can speak on behalf of the majority, and its proven more so by your stubborness to accept that a referendum should be held on these issues. If a referendum were held on these issues in this country, my argument would hold no water and i'd accept that while I may not agree with what the outcome eventually was, its what people wanted. If I am so wrong, then why will the left not hold a referendum on the issue? - could is possibly be because of the fact public opinion is immensely against the European Union and for the death penalty?.. I wonder.

The economics of the United Kingdom and Switzerland add even more to the argument why the United Kingdom should leave the European Union;- a bigger economy can do far better without bloc trading, therefore the argument for the EU being nessacery for the economy is as usual, scare-mongering to win over support for signing over our soverignty. As usual blaming the media, the evil right-wing media. :rolleyes: The public, when they walk into a shop have a choice; they can either buy the Telegraph, the Daily Mail and other right-wing papers or they can buy the Guardian (a left wing paper) - the sale figures show it all. Again, in your logic elections should also now be banned because;

a) the majority of people do not read party manifestos.
b) the media is indoctrinating people to a certain cause.

Your logic, not mine. You may aswell declare democracy dead and done.

People who have taken the survey, and said "UKIP has the highest percentage so I will vote for them" make me laugh. Use your own brains and think for yourself instead of listening to a quiz.
Its pathetic.

Anyway UKIP are a "dream party". They say all the right things - well the things majority of the British public want to hear. Why? They know they will never be in power so they can say what the hell they like and they never need to worry - because they will never have to implement it.

Conservatives are a big no no. If they propose to cut benefits, then they don't deserve to be in power.

I shall be voting Labour.

The problem is, if there is ANY problem at all, people instantly blame the government. Most of the time, it isnt even the government's fault.

Oh nooo! They closed down the local care home. Blame Mr. Brown for not coming over and saying to the council SPEND MILLIONS ON THIS NOW.
:rolleyes:

The day Conservatives get in power will be a sad day for this country.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

It would be awful in your opinion Jake, and thats what I am getting at and what UKIP are getting at. It is not you who should decide, it is not the unelected left who should decide - it is the people who should decide. As shown again by your post, you cannot seem to accept what people want. You continue to support a political elite who are out of touch and you also now appear to support a Federal Europe in the name of 'diversity' - well i'm sorry, the words diversity and uniting are mere subsitutes for big government and dictatoral policy.

Just accept that the people should decide how they live and how their future will stem, that afterall is why we fought two world wars and a cold war for that very right.

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If people genuinely wanted the death penalty to come back then that's scrapping everything this country stands for. Unlike you to want to sell this great country down the river ;) However, I have faith that people wouldn't vote for it to come back if push came to shove. In fact, I doubt UKIP would even hold a referendum on it - they're like the tories, they'll break their promises. Anyway, it doesn't matter because UKIP won't come into power in our life time. People say they want it to come back to be controversial and different, if they actually had to vote and it was becoming realistic then they'd soon go back on what they said. Again, like the tories.

Why on earth would any party want to bring back the Dealth Penalty?
Why party got rid of it and when?

They don't necessarily want to bring it back, they just want the public to have their say and decide whether it should come back, which is stupid and inhumane.

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Originally Posted by Immenseman

They don't necessarily want to bring it back, they just want the public to have their say and decide whether it should come back, which is stupid and inhumane.

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Who? Just UKIP or Conservatives too?

Either way, I think its obvious that the majority of the country doesn't want it back, so whichever party it is, they would be wasting money.

And it seems to be that UKIP want a referendum on like pretty much everything big rofl :S Their leader must be a moron who cant make decisions for himself then.
Hey everyone :D vote for me :D but I am not really a leader because I am too stupid to make decisions myself. I will waste money on a referendum for everything :D

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Originally Posted by Saurav

Why on earth would any party want to bring back the Dealth Penalty?
Why party got rid of it and when?

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The last hangings were in 1964 and it was abolished in 1969 in GB. Labour were in power at this time.

The main road in Manchester which links to the airport was closed today. I BLAME THE GOVERNMENT AND THEREFORE I BLAME LABOUR. THAT BROWN DUDE SHOULD HAVE COME AND SAID OPEN THIS DAMN ROAD! But nooo, he is too busy looking at more important things such as war, taxes, how to help the overall country.

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Saurav

People who have taken the survey, and said "UKIP has the highest percentage so I will vote for them" make me laugh. Use your own brains and think for yourself instead of listening to a quiz.
Its pathetic.

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Actually, I already wanted UKIP to win the election, due to I agree with the majority of their policies - the survey was just confirming that.

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Originally Posted by Saurav

People who have taken the survey, and said "UKIP has the highest percentage so I will vote for them" make me laugh. Use your own brains and think for yourself instead of listening to a quiz.
Its pathetic.

Anyway UKIP are a "dream party". They say all the right things - well the things majority of the British public want to hear. Why? They know they will never be in power so they can say what the hell they like and they never need to worry - because they will never have to implement it.

Conservatives are a big no no. If they propose to cut benefits, then they don't deserve to be in power.

I shall be voting Labour.

The problem is, if there is ANY problem at all, people instantly blame the government. Most of the time, it isnt even the government's fault.

Oh nooo! They closed down the local care home. Blame Mr. Brown for not coming over and saying to the council SPEND MILLIONS ON THIS NOW.
:rolleyes:

The day Conservatives get in power will be a sad day for this country.

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Thats called democracy, thats why we have so many different political parties with different ideas and solutions. On benefits, i'm not even going there because its pretty clear to everyone exactly what is wrong with benefits given our financial situation, and also the morality of some of the people on benefits.

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Originally Posted by Immenseman

If people genuinely wanted the death penalty to come back then that's scrapping everything this country stands for. Unlike you to want to sell this great country down the river ;) However, I have faith that people wouldn't vote for it to come back if push came to shove. In fact, I doubt UKIP would even hold a referendum on it - they're like the tories, they'll break their promises. Anyway, it doesn't matter because UKIP won't come into power in our life time. People say they want it to come back to be controversial and different, if they actually had to vote and it was becoming realistic then they'd soon go back on what they said. Again, like the tories.

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What does this country stand for then Jake - soft on crime with violent criminals being released after a few years in our so-called 'prisons'? - I know Labour stands for that, but nobody I have ever met has stood for that, infact not even Labour supporters.

On UKIP, do not make them out to be liars. If they break their promises i'll join you in calling them liars, but as it stands only Labour has broken its promises and the Conservatives under Cameron have broken their promise to hold a referendum. If UKIP gained office they would hold referendums on important issues such as the European Union and the death penalty, period. It is a fundemental part of their Conservative beliefs. Anyway, you seem pretty sure about people not voting in the death penalty, then surely you wouldn't mind holding a referendum on it?

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Originally Posted by Saurav

Why on earth would any party want to bring back the Dealth Penalty?
Why party got rid of it and when?

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Because people are sick to death of criminals getting away with disgusting crimes, was it not you anyway who wanted to smash a few lads faces in who were robbing your shop/your own families shop? - if so, then don't preach to me about two wrongs don't make a right. You disagree with the death penalty and so do many others, I agree with it and so do many others - so lets allow the British public to choose whether or not they wish for the death penalty to be brought back because afterall they were never given the choice whether or not to keep it or scrap it.

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Originally Posted by Saurav

Who? Just UKIP or Conservatives too?

Either way, I think its obvious that the majority of the country doesn't want it back, so whichever party it is, they would be wasting money.

And it seems to be that UKIP want a referendum on like pretty much everything big rofl :S Their leader must be a moron who cant make decisions for himself then.
Hey everyone :D vote for me :D but I am not really a leader because I am too stupid to make decisions myself. I will waste money on a referendum for everything :D

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Agree to the idea that a a referendum on it is right then, polls have shown the majority of people do want it back. On UKIP, no totally wrong again and reverting to insults now? - not very professional in a debate at all and doesn't put your point across very well either. UKIP want to hold referendums on a national level on issues such as the European Union and the death penalty, this of couse would be a big event in which every political party would argue their case in a series of debates on shows such as Question Time. The people would then go out and vote after they have made their decision. UKIP probably would support bringing back the death penalty and would campaign on that, but would not push anything like this through parliament as the government would be legally required to hold referendums on important issues such as the death penalty.

On a local level referendums would also be held, do you want a new park or a leisure centre built(?) & so forth - meaning the community have a say in the way their community is shaped. You say referendums are a waste of money, but then say you would vote Labour. I'm not sure about everybody else, but I can certainly see the hypocritical side to that statement.

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And it seems to be that UKIP want a referendum on like pretty much everything big rofl :S Their leader must be a moron who cant make decisions for himself then.
Hey everyone :D vote for me :D but I am not really a leader because I am too stupid to make decisions myself.

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Are you actually being serious there or are you messing around?

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Thats called democracy, thats why we have so many different political parties with different ideas and solutions. On benefits, i'm not even going there because its pretty clear to everyone exactly what is wrong with benefits given our financial situation, and also the morality of some of the people on benefits.



What does this country stand for then Jake - soft on crime?

On UKIP, do not make them out to be liars. If they break their promises i'll join you in calling them liars, but as it stands only Labour has broken its promises and the Conservatives under Cameron have broken their promise to hold a referendum. If UKIP gained office they would hold referendums on important issues such as the European Union and the death penalty, period. It is a fundemental part of their Conservative beliefs. Anyway, you seem pretty sure about people not voting in the death penalty, then surely you wouldn't mind holding a referendum on it?



Because people are sick to death of criminals getting away with disgusting crimes, was it not you anyway who wanted to smash a few lads faces in who were robbing your shop/your own families shop? - if so, then don't preach to me about two wrongs don't make a right. You disagree with the death penalty and so do many others, I agree with it and so do many others - so lets allow the British public to choose whether or not they wish for the death penalty to be brought back because afterall they were never given the choice whether or not to keep it or scrap it.



Agree to the idea that a a referendum on it is right then, polls have shown the majority of people do want it back. On UKIP, no totally wrong again and reverting to insults now are you? - not very professional at all and doesn't put your point across very well at all. UKIP want to hold referendums on a national level on issues such as the European Union and the death penalty, this of couse would be a big event in which every political party would argue their case in a series of debates on shows such as Question Time. The people would then go out and vote after they have made their decision. UKIP probably would support bringing back the death penalty and would campaign on that, but would not push anything like this through parliament as the government would be legally required to hold referendums on important issues such as the death penalty.

On a local level referendums would also be held, do you want a new park or a leisure centre are so forth - meaning the community have a say in the way their community is shaped. You say referendums are a waste of money, but then say you would vote Labour. I'm not sure about everybody else, but I can certainly see the hypocritical side to that statement.

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Not my shop. I didn't beat them up. It was someone elses shop and I was telling a story. Shows how much attention you pay.
Anyway punishing someone by beating them up is very different to the death penalty. If you disagree then I don't even see the point in ever replying to your posts as it shows your lack of understand in things.

If you were wrongly accused of murder and faced the death penalty, I am sure you would still support it in full, wouldn't you? :)

Referendums for a local leisure center etc? Oh myyy! What a waste of money. If the MP or PM cant make their own decisions and cant tell what the community / country really wants, they shouldn't be MP. Ergo, UKIP aren't in power and never will be. They cant make their own decisions.