Britain on the Brink / Scottish Independence Referendum

The EU is a very touchy subject that has being argued to death. However new light needs to be shed on our membership to the EU and the radical effect that recent events could have on our nation.

With the recent referendum on the voting system, new calls have went out for a referendum on our memership to the EU. With an ever growing eurosceptic movement across the UK can we force a referendum and end this fiasco once and for all?

Here is a video that explains why Britian is on the brink and what the ramifications will be when we see its depise and it isnt pretty. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jZ6MpA-LtE

HOWEVER recent events put a potential disasterous spin on the quest to leave the european union and thats because of the SNP's win of a majority in the Scottish Assembly (Not a Parliament). With their view of independence and determination to have a referendum on the issue will this cause problems for the UK and in particular England?.

Opinion polls indicate that the people of Scotland do NOT want independence but if the referendum did produce a "get out of the constitution" vote what would the ramifications be?.

If Scotland did leave the UK (I don't see how they could and survive but...) I would forsee that many issues would be a "sticking point" such as the share of the national debt, naval bases, economic migrants across the border etc but there is one big issue here and that is the enroaching EU.

With Scotlands removal from the UK, I suspect their EU membership would be questioned and as a direct result of that I feel that a move for them to adopt the euro is coming very close. What political and economic effect would this have?, as the border between England and Scotland would become something quite similar to what we see in northern ireland / republic of ireland and what are your views on this issue?

Pull out of the EU now. Sooner the better - all it does is cost us money and sovereignty. Agree trade agreements, agree migration agreements, agree treaties, but just get the **** out of the EU.

Then give the Scots independence because I don't like how they can vote on who is in parliament in England without letting us vote who's in parliament for Scotland.

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Originally Posted by Right-Wing

Then give the Scots independence because I don't like how they can vote on who is in parliament in England without letting us vote who's in parliament for Scotland.

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You're being a bit silly here Robbie :P They can vote in the Westminster Parliamentary Elections because Westminter has power over Scotland, the Scottish Parliament has no powers over England therefore it'd be stupid for English people to be able to vote in them.

Scottish Independence would be absolutely dire for the state of the United Kingdom, well it would be the beginning of the end for the United Kingdom and Scotland would collapse economically woo more economic disaster.

I am a Unionist and I consider myself British and not English. However, I think we are reaching the end of what was never a 'proper' nation and was with what happens with all artifical nations, it eventually falls apart with examples including Belgium, the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and is the fate which awaits the European Union hopefully sooner rather than later.

The choice is clear and I think Enoch Powell was spot on with this, either we are governed as one nation from Westminister or we end it. The choice should be put to the Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish people that either devolution is reversed or we break up. If the choice is made to end the United Kingdom then I will be sad, but its a choice the people should make and they shouldn't be kept a part of it should they wish to leave.

Scotland and Wales on their own in particular (I do not think the Northern Irish would leave) wouldn't have to become failed states, infact if you look at the examples of Singapore, Hong Kong and other rich small city states then it can be made a success - however as usual this requires capitalism, and it would mean Scotland and Wales would both have to end their welfare states overnight in order to do this which would fund lower taxes.

Somehow, I don't think this would happen and it would be much more likely that they would become suckers on the teet of which is the European Union, which of course is funded by a large extent by England - unless we leave, as we should.

If that ever happened, then that will most probably mean, a united Ireland. Can't think of anything worse.

The Scottish want Independence? Let em' ******* have it!

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Originally Posted by Hecktix

You're being a bit silly here Robbie :P They can vote in the Westminster Parliamentary Elections because Westminter has power over Scotland, the Scottish Parliament has no powers over England therefore it'd be stupid for English people to be able to vote in them.

Scottish Independence would be absolutely dire for the state of the United Kingdom, well it would be the beginning of the end for the United Kingdom and Scotland would collapse economically woo more economic disaster.

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Yes but that's the problem. The Scottish have two Parliaments - which is really stupid. I agree with Dan here:

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I am a Unionist and I consider myself British and not English. However, I think we are reaching the end of what was never a 'proper' nation and was with what happens with all artifical nations, it eventually falls apart with examples including Belgium, the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and is the fate which awaits the European Union hopefully sooner rather than later.

The choice is clear and I think Enoch Powell was spot on with this, either we are governed as one nation from Westminister or we end it. The choice should be put to the Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish people that either devolution is reversed or we break up. If the choice is made to end the United Kingdom then I will be sad, but its a choice the people should make and they shouldn't be kept a part of it should they wish to leave.

Scotland and Wales on their own in particular (I do not think the Northern Irish would leave) wouldn't have to become failed states, infact if you look at the examples of Singapore, Hong Kong and other rich small city states then it can be made a success - however as usual this requires capitalism, and it would mean Scotland and Wales would both have to end their welfare states overnight in order to do this which would fund lower taxes.

Somehow, I don't think this would happen and it would be much more likely that they would become suckers on the teet of which is the European Union, which of course is funded by a large extent by England - unless we leave, as we should.

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I agree with this principle. Either we are all governed by 1 parliament, 1 set of laws etc. OR we all have our own independent parliaments, different laws or whatever. But there can't be a mix of both. It is both unfair to England - letting others have a say in their laws, but not allowing them have a say in other's laws - as well as costly and pointless. If they want independence, give it to them. Then don't give them help when they crash and burn - after all, it's what they want.

I'm afraid the EU is mostly irrelevant from this debate, it has little to do with Scottish independence. No doubt an independent Scotland would immediately be part of the EU seeing as it would be recognised by all countries and would meet the criteria. The SNP is supportive of the EU too, perhaps in the future they'd move to the Euro but looking at how atrocious it has been in recent years, I can't see them rushing to join.

I whole heartedly agree with Undertaker and Right-Winger on the issue. We either have the union as it was before 1997 (No devolved parliaments!), which lets face it is impossible to reverse as most people seem to like this or we move to independence, beginning with Scotland. They seem to want it and seem to think they'll be fine being governed from Edinburgh completely reliant on North sea oil & gas. I suspect they'd be in a complete mess and want a bailout within years, it strikes me that there's very little oil & gas left. This article in The Times explains how they'd be portioned off some of the debt and be left with an enormous deficit; http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7044017.ece

I'd be interested in what this would mean for things like the armed forces though, would they be split up? What would England, Wales and NI collectively be called? Would the Welsh then push for independence?

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Originally Posted by Jordy

I'm afraid the EU is mostly irrelevant from this debate, it has little to do with Scottish independence. No doubt an independent Scotland would immediately be part of the EU seeing as it would be recognised by all countries and would meet the criteria. The SNP is supportive of the EU too, perhaps in the future they'd move to the Euro but looking at how atrocious it has been in recent years, I can't see them rushing to join.

I whole heartedly agree with Undertaker and Right-Winger on the issue. We either have the union as it was before 1997 (No devolved parliaments!), which lets face it is impossible to reverse as most people seem to like this or we move to independence, beginning with Scotland. They seem to want it and seem to think they'll be fine being governed from Edinburgh completely reliant on North sea oil & gas. I suspect they'd be in a complete mess and want a bailout within years, it strikes me that there's very little oil & gas left. This article in The Times explains how they'd be portioned off some of the debt and be left with an enormous deficit; http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7044017.ece

I'd be interested in what this would mean for things like the armed forces though, would they be split up? What would England, Wales and NI collectively be called? Would the Welsh then push for independence?

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The fact the nationalist party is failing in wales, and lost seats is a clear rejection of independence. I don't think Ive ever met anyone who wants independence, maybe more so in the north.

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Originally Posted by Sarah

The fact the nationalist party is failing in wales, and lost seats is a clear rejection of independence. I don't think Ive ever met anyone who wants independence, maybe more so in the north.

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Yeah I noticed Plaid Cymru lost some seats, they're no where near as powerful as the SNP's power in Scotland. I imagine though if Scotland did well under independence, the Welsh would soon begin to warm the idea. However if it wasn't working well for Scotland, no doubt Wales would still want to be part of the UK (or whatever England, Wales and NI make up).

The end of the United Kingdom is only decades away or perhaps even less and the fault is at the door of the party which implemented devolution based on party politics in the short term, Labour. It must however also be remembered that the Conservative and Unionist Party has failed not only on everything else in politics and the defence of this nation, but also in their stated duty to protect the Union which its very name contains.

All Empires break up after their success turns into decline and Great Britain would have to be a mighty exception to avoid this. But could this have been avoided in our lifetime? I think so - we were still culturally linked enough and I do think we can still pull it back, but only by a long shot which would involve reversing devolution which is something that the main parties simply will not do. An interesting glimpse into the past and a prediction from Enoch Powell which is turning out to be correct as Powell usually was;

When Labour won the 1997 general election, Enoch Powell was asked by his wife what he thought the election meant: "They have voted to break up the United Kingdom", was Powell's reply.

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Originally Posted by Jordy

Yeah I noticed Plaid Cymru lost some seats, they're no where near as powerful as the SNP's power in Scotland. I imagine though if Scotland did well under independence, the Welsh would soon begin to warm the idea. However if it wasn't working well for Scotland, no doubt Wales would still want to be part of the UK (or whatever England, Wales and NI make up).

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I don't think there will ever be any appetite for independence in Wales. It is not even an issue with most of the nationalists only a couple of die hards and amazingly the people of Wales do have their own points of view and are not like the their most popular animal - the sheep! :P

I hope that if there's a referendum on Independence people vote to stay in the Union. Scotland would fall apart if we weren't in it. Their priorities are completely wrong as well, there should be a referendum on whether we should leave the EU, I think that's the general consensus. Most people didn't vote SNP for Independence anyway, it's cause there's not much choice left after 3 failed parties. The Scottish Parliament hasn't done much to help Scotland anyway, and it's completely wrong when you have MSPs, MPs and MEPs.

Dan is right that there is only one party to blame and thats the Labour party. The United Kingdom is ruled from London (hence why its called the united kingdom since all geographic areas are ruled from the same please) and is not called The United Kingdom and all minor assemblys.

In my view, there is only one reason why the SNP want Independence for Scotland and thats because Alex Salmond wants to be the PM of scotland so he can up his ego. You may or may not agree but he is one selfish being who will try and steam roll over everyone and everything just so he can be called PM.

We all know scotland will fail by itself as its largely funded by the english and if it were to leave the union, it would have no welfare state what-so-ever because of the sheer amount of debt it would have. Quite frankly, they are living in fairy land if they think they can survive by themselves.

However, your absolutely spot on about DC and the Conservatives. The devolutions of parliament need to be reversed and sent back into the depths of history where they should of remained and will hopefully remain in the future. I almost have to laugh at how pathetic the SNP actually are :P.

Mind you, if scotland was taken off the map then labour can say good bye to ever having a majority in the commons ever again :PP!!

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Originally Posted by jam666

Dan is right that there is only one party to blame and thats the Labour party. The United Kingdom is ruled from London (hence why its called the united kingdom since all geographic areas are ruled from the same please) and is not called The United Kingdom and all minor assemblys.

In my view, there is only one reason why the SNP want Independence for Scotland and thats because Alex Salmond wants to be the PM of scotland so he can up his ego. You may or may not agree but he is one selfish being who will try and steam roll over everyone and everything just so he can be called PM.

We all know scotland will fail by itself as its largely funded by the english and if it were to leave the union, it would have no welfare state what-so-ever because of the sheer amount of debt it would have. Quite frankly, they are living in fairy land if they think they can survive by themselves.

However, your absolutely spot on about DC and the Conservatives. The devolutions of parliament need to be reversed and sent back into the depths of history where they should of remained and will hopefully remain in the future. I almost have to laugh at how pathetic the SNP actually are :P.

Mind you, if scotland was taken off the map then labour can say good bye to ever having a majority in the commons ever again :PP!!

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That last point is true. Maybe it will be good for us? :P But yeah as myself and Dan have said previously - it's all or nothing. We can't have these devolved assemblies with some powers but not others. If DC is really going to fight independence he should be taking back powers from the assemblies until he actually can say they no longer have a reason to exist.

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Originally Posted by Right-Wing

Pull out of the EU now. Sooner the better - all it does is cost us money and sovereignty. Agree trade agreements, agree migration agreements, agree treaties, but just get the **** out of the EU.

Then give the Scots independence because I don't like how they can vote on who is in parliament in England without letting us vote who's in parliament for Scotland.

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What the hell? You want all that stuff with Europe, that is the whole reason we are in it - they won't just give us everything we want, if we are not doing something for the union. What a clueless post.

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Originally Posted by Marketing

What the hell? You want all that stuff with Europe, that is the whole reason we are in it - they won't just give us everything we want, if we are not doing something for the union. What a clueless post.

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We are not in European Union for those reasons, infact being in the European Union removes the right of the British government to sign trade agreements, decide immigration quotas/rules and also restricts treaties - one example was, and it still creates bad feeling in New Zealand/Australia and the rest of the Commonwealth - how we turned our backs on them and cancelled trade agreements with them overnight when we joined the EU.

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Originally Posted by Marketing

What the hell? You want all that stuff with Europe, that is the whole reason we are in it - they won't just give us everything we want, if we are not doing something for the union. What a clueless post.

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They've taken away the power of our courts and eroded our Parliaments powers. The EU should not be controlling our laws. All we need from Europe is trading and alliances. Nothing else. We shouldn't be giving up our laws, sovereignty and our country's image for a bit of trade. We have unlimited EU immigrants every year - not good. We have bailed out Portugal, Greece & Ireland - not good. Our laws have been overturned by the EU - not good. The EU is ruining our country's image, what England is. Each country has different beliefs and each country should have different laws to fit those beliefs. I refuse to let the EU dictate what we should do in our own country just for a bit of trading with them. Pull out, get some trade deals. Done.

The EU is a waste of resources, it's common sense and widely accepted now - that debate was and is over :P If Scotland want independence, we should let them have it - we're not some heartless, money absorbing organisation that doesn't benefit countries under its flag and name (glares at the blue flag with lots of yellow stars in a circle). I do think the Union could exist under a different use, and that's trade and the sharing of common interests and law.

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Originally Posted by Marketing

What the hell? You want all that stuff with Europe, that is the whole reason we are in it - they won't just give us everything we want, if we are not doing something for the union. What a clueless post.

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Actually, you're wrong. Under the EU, trade agreements are more like "trade restrictions" than the belief that "free trade" exists, which is what is usually blabbed about when the EU rears it's ugly, haemoraging head. Look up "Kenyan Flower Market EU" and then also look up articles about how the EU messes up certain industries using blanket laws/rules which effect nations that aren't barbaric or damn right stupid (the UK) who know what the word "limit" means in the same context as fishing :rolleyes:

The EU looks good at a glance, but it is outdated, restrictive and a waste of good money for all nations involved with the organisation.

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Originally Posted by Jordy

Yeah I noticed Plaid Cymru lost some seats, they're no where near as powerful as the SNP's power in Scotland. I imagine though if Scotland did well under independence, the Welsh would soon begin to warm the idea. However if it wasn't working well for Scotland, no doubt Wales would still want to be part of the UK (or whatever England, Wales and NI make up).

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That's funny!

Give Scotland independence with 2 conditions;
1) We don't set up some silly charity fund directly into the pocket of their government
2) When it inevitably falls apart we don't have to pick up the pieces.

Obviously we all know we need to leave the EU. When people vote in a democratic government we might be able to.

Give the Scottish people a couple of years when they realise that the first minister has promised so much which he will not be able to deliver and there will be no appetite for it. :)