The Queen & Ireland

I guess I was too stubborn to forget the past. Although British troops killed allot of innocent people, that's the past and we need to concentrate on the future. All we can do is always keep those who died during those horrid times in both Ireland and England in our thoughts.

I was really impressed by the Queen and David Camerons speech. They admitted what happened in the past was terribly wrong on their behalf, which I'm sure the majority of the people in Ireland are grateful for. I really hope the Queens visit will put an end to all the terror being caused by the IRA. Only time will tell and lets be honest if they are persistent and continue bombing innocent people we know it really isn't for a so called "cause" it's for them to big themselves up because they have nothing better to do. After all Ireland and Britain are close neighbours which should work together rather than continue feuds from century's ago. What has happened has happened, it's not like fighting will get anyone anywhere.

I believe and hope after this visit, we will be two very close nations that stick together. To me it's almost like a relief which is funny, I always held some sort of competitive grudge against the united kingdom. For example just days ago I was more concerned about Ireland beating the united kingdom than us actually winning the eurovision. Which is just silly. The only views I think I'll continue to follow is the British marching around Dublin with union jack flags, that is totally uncalled for and if people of Britain didn't attempt that in 2006 I think the heated tension wouldn't be so much when the Queens visit to Ireland was confirmed.

I hope she enjoys the rest of her visit and comes home in one piece :P

That's a lovely sentiment, Richie and I agree. You can keep David Cameron though. :P

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The only views I think I'll continue to follow is the British marching around Dublin with union jack flags, that is totally uncalled for and if people of Britain didn't attempt that in 2006 I think the heated tension wouldn't be so much when the Queens visit to Ireland was confirmed.

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What is this all about though?

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Originally Posted by Catz

That's a lovely sentiment, Richie and I agree. You can keep David Cameron though. :P



What is this all about though?

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He seems like a nice guy but that could be just a show


As for the march, everything here explains it and here are some images from the riot.

---------- Post added 19-05-2011 at 10:44 AM ----------

P.s
In the first post I meant stubborn :P

If there are more people like you who've come to some sort of conclusion that actually peace is the way forward then I think the Queen's visit is worth every penny.

We should never forget the troubles and the innocent people who died in the process but we need to move forward for their sakes. imo.

Well that sounded inflammatory and unnecessary. Don't think the mainland UK would have approved of that at all. Hopefully, now that it is all the past.

Even in the space of a year things have changed enormously. As i mentioned in another post, Gerry Adams now calls the queen "Her Majesty". Several months ago he would have just called her by her name.

It's interesting how something as simple as the Queen visiting has calmed many of the sentiments of the Irish and the British. It's so far in the past now that Britain and Ireland have been slowly mending and coming to terms with each other. Hopefully the IRA can stop throwing their toys out of their pram and move on too, as they have been no help at all.

That's a very fair statement and definitely the sort of thing that should of came out of the Queens visit. My history of it all isn't the best but it's clearly a big moment and some excellent diplomacy. It's also further evidence of how good the Monarchy is for Britain, the Queen is fantastic for diplomacy. Imagine sending "President Cameron" over to Ireland, that wouldn't of made any difference.

I'd quite like to see Sinn Fein take it's seats in the House of Commons, I've no idea how close they are to this but it'd be a big moment.

I do fail to see why Bloody Sunday is all that seems to spew from Richie's mouth when in reality it was an isolated incident, terrible yes but nothing compared to the violence of the IRA against the United Kingdom since civil war in Ireland from 1919 onwards. In the same thread I keep seeing Gerry Adams mentioned as though this man commands some form of respect, a man who was directly involved in Bloody Friday.

The British army is not even comparable to the likes of the IRA and paramilitary Unionist groups, the latter of both which targeted innocents.

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Originally Posted by Jordy

I'd quite like to see Sinn Fein take it's seats in the House of Commons, I've no idea how close they are to this but it'd be a big moment.

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I'd like to see many in Sinn Fein hanging from the gallows myself.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I do fail to see why Bloody Sunday is all that seems to spew from Richie's mouth when in reality it was an isolated incident, terrible yes but nothing compared to the violence of the IRA against the United Kingdom since civil war in Ireland from 1919 onwards.

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Now i don't want to begin another long discussion on this since we've already spent a lot of time on it to the point that you and i just go around in circles. However i do think it's unfair that in this statement towards Richie, you are simply assuming he is talking about just one of the Bloody Sundays ( I assume you're talking about the most recent one). Yes it is in the past and we must move on, but you also must accept that quite a lot of other incidents did happen, especially before the world wars. I think Richie was talking about the entire history of the British/English army in Ireland rather than just what happened in recent enough times in the north.

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Originally Posted by Eoin247

Now i don't want to begin another long discussion on this since we've already spent a lot of time on it to the point that you and i just go around in circles. However i do think it's unfair that in this statement towards Richie, you are simply assuming he is talking about just one of the Bloody Sundays ( I assume you're talking about the most recent one). Yes it is in the past and we must move on, but you also must accept that quite a lot of other incidents did happen, especially before the world wars. I think Richie was talking about the entire history of the British/English army in Ireland rather than just what happened in recent enough times in the north.

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If you want to go back that far we could go back to collaboration between Ireland with continental powers to invade and bring down the Kingdom of England on the basis of religion and pure politics, but of course everything is the fault of big bad Britain and its Empire which although it had faults, brought about the notion of morality and common law which remain precious to free nations.

I have stated before, the British army has had bad periods in its history just as with any army, however when compared with the IRA and the cretin Gerry Adams and his Sinn Fein i'm afraid they are leaps and bounds ahead in common decency.

Interestingly Ireland was formed as a nation state after the Pope and the Catholic Church ordered the then-Catholic Kingdom of England to invade Ireland and bring it into the Papal sphere - so if you want to pinpoint the blame, pin it on the Roman Catholic Church.

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Originally Posted by Eoin247

Yes it is in the past and we must move on, but you also must accept that quite a lot of other incidents did happen, especially before the world wars.

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I have never denied this, infact I pointed out myself the incident of General Dyer in the British Raj. I have a question for yourself and Richie though, do you agree that the British army, with its faults, is leaps and bounds ahead of the IRA in terms of morality and general behaviour?

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I have never denied this, infact I pointed out myself the incident of General Dyer in the British Raj. I have a question for yourself and Richie though, do you agree that the British army, with its faults, is leaps and bounds ahead of the IRA in terms of morality and general behaviour?

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Both are at fault. Not in any one of the threads I created in the past have I agreed with the IRAs behaviour. The IRA were/are in the wrong for what they do/did, however I do understand why they try to create uproar and agree with some of Sinn féins political views but that doesn't mean I condone violence. You're British, you're obviously going to defend your side of the pitch as I'm Irish I will always defend mine. For example, I'm more angry for what the British did to the Irish as those people who died are people of our nation. You will be more angry with what the IRA have done because they killed people of your nation. I wouldn't say I'm bias I'd say more umm.. defending my country as we were at threat from the British and not the IRA.

I'm not sure why you want to bring it all back up? Your opinions just make me want to agree more and more with the IRAs political views. It's all water under bridge, what's done is done. All we can do is build a better friendship with both nations and think of the future, remember those who died and forget about those who are held responsible for the deaths of all those innocent people (On both sides).

I fail to see how are you think you are at threat from the British and not the IRA? They are the ones still continuing their killings and not just to Protestants but Catholics too :S Anyway I think it is disgusting how men like Gerry Adams are allowed to run our country.

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Originally Posted by Kirst

I fail to see how are you think you are at threat from the British and not the IRA? They are the ones still continuing their killings and not just to Protestants but Catholics too :S Anyway I think it is disgusting how men like Gerry Adams are allowed to run our country.

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I was referring to the real IRA of the past.

yes well its hardly water under the bridge if they are still carrying on their campaign of violence.
The IRA and building a friendship between the two nations don't fit in the same sentence!

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Originally Posted by Richie

I was referring to the real IRA of the past.

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I think you are fighting a losing battle here. It started out being a lovely thread with some great some great sentiments. Let's face it just because the Queen of England, British and the Irish Government can 'mend the fences' and look forward not back with peace and reconciliations obviously doesn't mean that some on here obviously think their views count for more and I would leave them to it. :P

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

If you want to go back that far we could go back to collaboration between Ireland with continental powers to invade and bring down the Kingdom of England on the basis of religion and pure politics, but of course everything is the fault of big bad Britain and its Empire which although it had faults, brought about the notion of morality and common law which remain precious to free nations.

I have stated before, the British army has had bad periods in its history just as with any army, however when compared with the IRA and the cretin Gerry Adams and his Sinn Fein i'm afraid they are leaps and bounds ahead in common decency.

Interestingly Ireland was formed as a nation state after the Pope and the Catholic Church ordered the then-Catholic Kingdom of England to invade Ireland and bring it into the Papal sphere - so if you want to pinpoint the blame, pin it on the Roman Catholic Church.

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As much as i'd love to blame the church for everything, I don't think you can really blame the church for the killings here.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I have never denied this, infact I pointed out myself the incident of General Dyer in the British Raj. I have a question for yourself and Richie though, do you agree that the British army, with its faults, is leaps and bounds ahead of the IRA in terms of morality and general behaviour?

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As it is now and in more recent time then yes of course it is. I actualy agreed with this during our last discussion on this topic.

However as it was under people like Cromwell for example, it wasn't quite i'm afraid.

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Originally Posted by Richie

Both are at fault. Not in any one of the threads I created in the past have I agreed with the IRAs behaviour. The IRA were/are in the wrong for what they do/did, however I do understand why they try to create uproar and agree with some of Sinn féins political views but that doesn't mean I condone violence. You're British, you're obviously going to defend your side of the pitch as I'm Irish I will always defend mine. For example, I'm more angry for what the British did to the Irish as those people who died are people of our nation. You will be more angry with what the IRA have done because they killed people of your nation. I wouldn't say I'm bias I'd say more umm.. defending my country as we were at threat from the British and not the IRA.

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I'm angry at both and don't attempt to defend either Republican or Unionist terrorist groups or when the British army/government has acted disgracefully such as with Bloody Sunday, General Dyer in the Raj and the Iraq war. I do however object to the idea that what Gerry Adams says or thinks holds any weight or that he shouldn't be criticised on this forum - if you or Eoin wish to quote Gerry Adams then everytime you do so I will bring up his disgusting history and expose him for the man he really is.

The fact you refuse to condone a terrorist group when compared to the British army suggests again to me that you sympathise greatly with the IRA.

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Originally Posted by Richie

I'm not sure why you want to bring it all back up? Your opinions just make me want to agree more and more with the IRAs political views. It's all water under bridge, what's done is done. All we can do is build a better friendship with both nations and think of the future, remember those who died and forget about those who are held responsible for the deaths of all those innocent people (On both sides).

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You agree with them anyway, from what i've gathered (because you refused to spell out what your views actually are because they fall into line with those of the IRA) you support a United Ireland despite the fact that the people of Northern Ireland do not want to be a part of the Republic of Ireland. If wrong you can correct me on that and spell out exactly what your views are.

I don't see what i'm saying here is me being irrational, either we agree that those who murder the innocent should be punished and not put into government or we don't - I agree with that statement, yet everytime I raise it I get hassle from yourself bringing up isolated incidents such as Bloody Sunday and so forth.

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Originally Posted by Catz

I think you are fighting a losing battle here. It started out being a lovely thread with some great some great sentiments. Let's face it just because the Queen of England, British and the Irish Government can 'mend the fences' and look forward not back with peace and reconciliations obviously doesn't mean that some on here obviously think their views count for more and I would leave them to it. :P

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Would you support placing Osama Bin Laden in the Afghan government? and for that matter, would you then tell the families of the victims of 9/11, to quote a vapid phrase, 'look forwards and not backwards'? I would love to see the faces of the victims families if you suggested that to their faces, so just because its Northern Ireland being talked about here don't dismiss me as some dweller on the past.

I believe people who murder innocents should be punished, not put into government.

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Originally Posted by Eoin247

As much as i'd love to blame the church for everything, I don't think you can really blame the church for the killings here.

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Well again, it depends how far you want to go back - and everytime this issue surfaces it seems sympathisers with the IRA always excuse its acts by going back centuries and centuries to pinpoint some jusitication for their crimes.

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Originally Posted by Eoin247

As it is now and in more recent time then yes of course it is. I actualy agreed with this during our last discussion on this topic.

However as it was under people like Cromwell for example, it wasn't quite i'm afraid.

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Good.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I'm angry at both and don't attempt to defend either Republican or Unionist terrorist groups or when the British army/government has acted disgracefully such as with Bloody Sunday, General Dyer in the Raj and the Iraq war. I do however object to the idea that what Gerry Adams says or thinks holds any weight or that he shouldn't be criticised on this forum - if you or Eoin wish to quote Gerry Adams then everytime you do so I will bring up his disgusting history and expose him for the man he really is.

The fact you refuse to condone a terrorist group when compared to the British army suggests again to me that you sympathise greatly with the IRA.



You agree with them anyway, from what i've gathered (because you refused to spell out what your views actually are because they fall into line with those of the IRA) you support a United Ireland despite the fact that the people of Northern Ireland do not want to be a part of the Republic of Ireland. If wrong you can correct me on that and spell out exactly what your views are.

I don't see what i'm saying here is me being irrational, either we agree that those who murder the innocent should be punished and not put into government or we don't - I agree with that statement, yet everytime I raise it I get hassle from yourself bringing up isolated incidents such as Bloody Sunday and so forth.



Would you support placing Osama Bin Laden in the Afghan government? and for that matter, would you then tell the families of the victims of 9/11, to quote a vapid phrase, 'look forwards and not backwards'? I would love to see the faces of the victims families if you suggested that to their faces, so just because its Northern Ireland being talked about here don't dismiss me as some dweller on the past.

I believe people who murder innocents should be punished, not put into government.



Well again, it depends how far you want to go back - and everytime this issue surfaces it seems sympathisers with the IRA always excuse its acts by going back centuries and centuries to pinpoint some jusitication for their crimes.



Good.

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Do you care that you have killed Richie's thread? Peace and reconciliation are good enough for countries but not good enough for you? Not every thread has to be a full on battle you know and IMO you should go back and read the first post .:@

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Originally Posted by Catz

Peace and reconciliation are good enough for countries but not good enough for you? Not every thread has to be a full on battle you know and IMO you should go back and read the first post .:@

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Answer the question, its a simple yes or no.

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Originally Posted by Catz

Do you care that you have killed Richie's thread?

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The thread was killed when Gerry Adams was mentioned as though his opinion deserves any respect.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Answer the question, its a simple yes or no.



The thread was killed when Gerry Adams was mentioned as though his opinion deserves any respect.

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Oh well I tried. *frustrated* I don't have to answer any question just because you have posed one you know. It's called freedom of expression and freedom of speech so feel free to ignore me.

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I do however object to the idea that what Gerry Adams says or thinks holds any weight or that he shouldn't be criticised on this forum - if you or Eoin wish to quote Gerry Adams then everytime you do so I will bring up his disgusting history and expose him for the man he really is.

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The thread was killed when Gerry Adams was mentioned as though his opinion deserves any respect.

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Jesus Christ. You always blow what i say out of proportion and over exagerate what i say. I only quoted what he said to show the change in the mindset of people who used to be totaly against the British monarchy. I honestly don't see what's wrong with that. You are the only one that's interpretting my post in this way.

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would you then tell the families of the victims of 9/11, to quote a vapid phrase, 'look forwards and not backwards'? I would love to see the faces of the victims families if you suggested that to their faces, so just because its Northern Ireland being talked about here don't dismiss me as some dweller on the past.

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A bit confused here. You don't think these people should 'look forwards and not backwards', yet you have made it clear before that you want the Irish to do so with regards to the mistreatment and killings of many more Irish from the years of British rule?

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Originally Posted by Catz

Oh well I tried. *frustrated* I don't have to answer any question just because you have posed one you know. It's called freedom of expression and freedom of speech so feel free to ignore me.

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Please don't you give me lectures on free speech and expression when you don't believe in it yourself.

But anyway back onto the topic at hand...is it the fact that you won't answer my question because you are embarassed by the fact that you think terrorists/killers in government are acceptable on British soil? why is it that we should all 'move forwards and stop looking backwards' concerning Gerry Adams, the IRA, Sinn Fein and Unionist terror groups but not the same concerning Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda? So here is the question again;

Could you explain what makes Gerry Adams any better than Osama Bin Laden because I am genuinely interested to know and would you tell the families of the victims of 9/11 and 7/7 to 'move forwards and stop looking backwards' in justifying Osama Bin Laden being appointed to the Afghan government?

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Originally Posted by Eoin247

Jesus Christ. You always blow what i say out of proportion and over exagerate what i say. I only quoted what he said to show the change in the mindset of people who used to be totaly against the British monarchy. I honestly don't see what's wrong with that. You are the only one that's interpretting my post in this way.

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Well we'll see about that depending on your reply to the question I pose below.

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Originally Posted by Eoin247

A bit confused here. You don't think these people should 'look forwards and not backwards', yet you have made it clear before that you want the Irish to do so with regards to the mistreatment and killings of many more Irish from the years of British rule?

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The difference is that those people are dead my friend who committed those crimes decades and hundreds of years ago, therefore they cannot be tried for their crimes - the IRA, Gerry Adams, those in Sinn Fein and the Unionist terrorist groups are not only still alive, they are in government and they can be brought to justice rather than treating them as respectable statesmen.

So my question to you is, should those who appear to have committed crimes be tried for their crimes and removed from NI government? (including Gerry Adams) - if the response to this is no, then it seems quite clear to me that you sympathise with Gerry Adams and rightly believe that his actions have earned him a place above the law of the land.

If yes, then we are in complete agreement.

agreed richie serously sick of people trying to bring the past back. . . theres this pure umm (horrible girl) in my class n she was shouting all this sectarian crap about it all -.- i felt like getting someone to slap her or at least chuck something at her urghhhh. . . .

also i loved lizzies speech wat a wee legend =] hope she comes again

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Well we'll see about that depending on your reply to the question I pose below.

The difference is that those people are dead my friend who committed those crimes decades and hundreds of years ago, therefore they cannot be tried for their crimes - the IRA, Gerry Adams, those in Sinn Fein and the Unionist terrorist groups are not only still alive, they are in government and they can be brought to justice rather than treating them as respectable statesmen.

So my question to you is, should those who appear to have committed crimes be tried for their crimes and removed from NI government? (including Gerry Adams) - if the response to this is no, then it seems quite clear to me that you sympathise with Gerry Adams and rightly believe that his actions have earned him a place above the law of the land.

If yes, then we are in complete agreement.

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Firstly Gerry Adams isn't in the NI government. In fact, he was recently elected as a TD south of the border. I believe that people must be punished for their crimes and i make no exception for anybody (including Gerry Adams).

But on the other hand, if there wasn't this power sharing in the north there wouldn't be this level of peace that there is now currently in the north.