Business/Foreign Workers

Alright so.

The other day at the Conservative Party conference the Home Secretary announced plans to have businesses have to publish what percentage of their workforce was foreign. Now, if you went by the reaction on Twitter you'd think the public was 80% against with absurd lunatic statements like "next it will be yellow stars" being retweeted around the place.

Well, YouGov did some polling and here's what a representative sample - not left wing Twitter - of the public think.

59% of people back Conservative proposals to make firms publish how many foreign workers they employ https://t.co/yk1XCOQ0pA pic.twitter.com/5bqjCYvuwd

— YouGov (@YouGov) October 6, 2016

In further news, 60% of people think a company should hire a British candidate over an equally qualified foreign one https://t.co/CYILyx2NnI pic.twitter.com/eVm5qT5WMw

— Matthew Smith (@mattsmithetc) October 6, 2016

Majority of the public support proposals to have businesses publish number of foreign workers - inc Lab/LD voters https://t.co/yk1XCOQ0pA pic.twitter.com/IpBrbdHWmf

— YouGov (@YouGov) October 6, 2016

Moral of the story? Don't confuse social media for national opinion.

I don't think the plans will do much and there's more to be done with controlling immigration but I do think we should be entitled to ask why a low-skilled factory in a deprived town on the eastern coast is employing 50, 60, 90% foreign workers when the unemployment figures in that said town are 40% or more. That's a legitimate question.

Thoughts?

Do you know what's hilarious

It's that bloody misleading Times headline prompting everyone to massively freak out and hate the Tories for keeping some dodgy list of foreign workers which to some of them idiots means ALL people with other nationalities not just immigrants? Had to stop reading Facebook a couple times cos of it, got so annoyed but not interested in starting some argument with some young politico with a massive anti-Tory bias "just cos" rather than looking at the damn facts

OK RANT OVER

Why shouldn't businesses publish this? They have to record loads of others, gender, nationality, disabilities, religion/sexual orientation - although some of them are the employee's right to disclose I suppose. I think gender they have to report actually.

I actually completely agree with you that the public should be aware of how many FOREIGN (aka: NON RESIDENTS OF THE UK) people work in certain places, including the "disgusting" NHS plans because why shouldn't the public be aware of how many non-residents are occupying jobs created in the UK for UK people?

I mean I could massively be misunderstanding this but it's not like Nazi Germany, they're not asking these foreign workers to walk around with a pink triangle on their arm, it's all anonymous it's not a list of names (bloody Times headline once again)


also: wtf does foreign even mean I'm assuming it means non resident workers or outsourced work / work visa etc rather than legal immigrants... if it's legal immigrants then I genuinely don't believe the tories would do this?? Although I still see zero issue with reporting it, it will just create unnecessary vitriol while people misunderstand the meaning of "foreign" workers

Publishing data doesn't necessarily mean that anyone's gonna get penalised for having too few or too many of X person anyway surely

I think it is very rare for a firm ti hire a foreign worker over an equally qualified foreign one without any other reason...

Getting a job is as much about personality, approach etc as it is to do about being qualified.

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Originally Posted by lawrawrrr

Do you know what's hilarious

It's that bloody misleading Times headline prompting everyone to massively freak out and hate the Tories for keeping some dodgy list of foreign workers which to some of them idiots means ALL people with other nationalities not just immigrants? Had to stop reading Facebook a couple times cos of it, got so annoyed but not interested in starting some argument with some young politico with a massive anti-Tory bias "just cos" rather than looking at the damn facts

OK RANT OVER

Why shouldn't businesses publish this? They have to record loads of others, gender, nationality, disabilities, religion/sexual orientation - although some of them are the employee's right to disclose I suppose. I think gender they have to report actually.

I actually completely agree with you that the public should be aware of how many FOREIGN (aka: NON RESIDENTS OF THE UK) people work in certain places, including the "disgusting" NHS plans because why shouldn't the public be aware of how many non-residents are occupying jobs created in the UK for UK people?

I mean I could massively be misunderstanding this but it's not like Nazi Germany, they're not asking these foreign workers to walk around with a pink triangle on their arm, it's all anonymous it's not a list of names (bloody Times headline once again)


also: wtf does foreign even mean I'm assuming it means non resident workers or outsourced work / work visa etc rather than legal immigrants... if it's legal immigrants then I genuinely don't believe the tories would do this?? Although I still see zero issue with reporting it, it will just create unnecessary vitriol while people misunderstand the meaning of "foreign" workers

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Since when were NHS jobs created "in the UK for UK people"?

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Originally Posted by AgnesIO

I think it is very rare for a firm ti hire a foreign worker over an equally qualified foreign one without any other reason...

Getting a job is as much about personality, approach etc as it is to do about being qualified.

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Since when were NHS jobs created "in the UK for UK people"?

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Well surely, jobs are created in a country for that country's residents to be employed so they can not be reliant on the government (benefits etc)? When I say for UK people I mean residents of the U.K., not just people with historical heritage.

I know there's the whole like right to work thing from the EU and we are reliant on a lot of overseas doctors and nurses which is obviously what we need, but if they're being hired cos they're cheap over an equally qualified doctor from the UK then that's a flaw in our system IMO.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by lawrawrrr

Well surely, jobs are created in a country for that country's residents to be employed so they can not be reliant on the government (benefits etc)? When I say for UK people I mean residents of the U.K., not just people with historical heritage.

I know there's the whole like right to work thing from the EU and we are reliant on a lot of overseas doctors and nurses which is obviously what we need, but if they're being hired cos they're cheap over an equally qualified doctor from the UK then that's a flaw in our system IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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How many student doctors do you know of that can't find a job?

They're not being employed because they're cheaper; they're being employed because we don't have enough. Why don't we have enough? Because our education system does not produce students with good enough qualifications or work ethic. Why is this? Because kids have it far too easy in school.

It isn't anything to do with foreigners.

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Originally Posted by AgnesIO

How many student doctors do you know of that can't find a job?

They're not being employed because they're cheaper; they're being employed because we don't have enough. Why don't we have enough? Because our education system does not produce students with good enough qualifications or work ethic. Why is this? Because kids have it far too easy in school.

It isn't anything to do with foreigners.

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Actually at my fathers care home we've been told by the staff (who are all foreign; there is not a single person on my dad's floor whose native language is English) that they are chosen over residents of the UK because UK residents demand higher pay. But that's only one example that's personal to me, I couldn't produce any stats or make any generalisations about the country but I still think that's pretty shocking.

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Originally Posted by Empired

Actually at my fathers care home we've been told by the staff (who are all foreign; there is not a single person on my dad's floor whose native language is English) that they are chosen over residents of the UK because UK residents demand higher pay. But that's only one example that's personal to me, I couldn't produce any stats or make any generalisations about the country but I still think that's pretty shocking.

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And what wages are our workers asking for?

In any case, I was referring more to doctors etcetera (where we don't have enough). There is a big difference between that and being a low-level staff member (the original post referred specifically to nurses and doctors). I don't know of any nurses who are struggling to find a job, nor any doctors.

it's easy for you all to say you think the outrage is ridiculous when it's not your name on the list

my name will be one of the names demanding to be listed, and I don't particularly think it's fair that an english person with the same qualifications gets automatically chosen over myself.

like what agnes io said, what if my personality is more fit for the job? but i'm not british, so i automatically get placed behind them? and lets just say that's not even the case, that's still how i've been made feel and at the moment i feel extremely unwelcome

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just to add, i don't think the whole 'list being made public' is a bad idea with regard to finding employers who are exploiting the system, it's how it's suddenly been put to the public and DEMANDED

and how the entire attitude surrounding it is BRITISH PEOPLE FIRST
i have two degrees and studied for one of them in your country, i think i have just as much a right to work there don't you

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Originally Posted by wixard

and how the entire attitude surrounding it is BRITISH PEOPLE FIRST
i have two degrees and studied for one of them in your country, i think i have just as much a right to work there don't you

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Waiting for someone to say "yes, but your culture is more aligned to ours, so you are fine", and then they will claim they are not simply being xenophobic :rolleyes: :P

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Originally Posted by AgnesIO

Waiting for someone to say "yes, but your culture is more aligned to ours, so you are fine", and then they will claim they are not simply being xenophobic :rolleyes: :P

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and to add to that, the Ireland Act (1949) states irish people in the uk are not considered 'foreign'

so when the question was raised to the home office it should have been 100% clear that irish people are to be exempt from it, the fact they dismissed the question with a no comment just shows that they either have no idea what they're talking about or they're happy to include irish citizens on the ridiculous list

shaming people who want to contribute to your own society isn't the smartest way to go about things, and foreigners are not the reason for all of the uks problems but OH WELL

I disagree with it. It's just another unnecessary bureaucratic obstacle where people are labelled and categorised by things that have no bearing on how they do their job (gender, race, age, ethnicity etc etc).

However, there is an issue with immigration that annoys me. People say things like "oh these foreign workers help prop up our NHS" which is true and my thanks/gratitude to each and every one of them. My issue is that pro-immigration arguments always tend to rely on degenerating and undermining British people. You can even see that in here. "They're too lazy", "they're too stupid", "immigrants do the jobs that British people don't want to do" and I think that's a slap in the face because I do think that British people would do these jobs. I was unemployed for 2 years (I live in an area of high unemployment) and it was hell on Earth. I am not saying any immigrants took my job but it did annoy me when these arguments are made cos I am working my butt off trying to find a job and people are making these inaccurate generalizations.

I will take nursing as an example. There's a huge demand for entries to nursing degrees but there isn't enough supply so it means we have to look to other countries to prop it up. Why aren't we training more nurses? Why aren't we building the skills, talent, workforce so that we don't have to rely on immigration? According to the article in the link, this is due to funding but I do think the long term benefits of having more people in work and filling the demand means it is worth the investment.

Immigration should be used as a last resort to fill the skills gaps in the system rather than as an excuse not to bother. "We don't need to spend money/resources on this because we can just use highly skilled/trained people from other countries" as that is bound to breed resentment and is unsustainable long term.

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Originally Posted by AgnesIO

How many student doctors do you know of that can't find a job?

They're not being employed because they're cheaper; they're being employed because we don't have enough. Why don't we have enough? Because our education system does not produce students with good enough qualifications or work ethic. Why is this? Because kids have it far too easy in school.

It isn't anything to do with foreigners.

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You can argue that case for the few skilled immigrants that come but you cannot argue it for the vast majority of immigrants coming who are filling unskilled jobs which less academic Britons are being pushed out of.

If British people aren't willing to work for a measly wage then an employer in a natural market would be forced to up his wages in order to find staff to do the work. Since 2004 however, he's has an endless supply of cheap labour from Eastern Europe with which to keep his wages the same which Britons who have to cope with living costs cannot keep up with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Empired

Actually at my fathers care home we've been told by the staff (who are all foreign; there is not a single person on my dad's floor whose native language is English) that they are chosen over residents of the UK because UK residents demand higher pay. But that's only one example that's personal to me, I couldn't produce any stats or make any generalisations about the country but I still think that's pretty shocking.

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Indeed. Cheap labour from the continent has been amazing for corporations the last ten years as it has helped push down Britons wages, especially in unskilled jobs. Well thankfully that is now coming to an end.

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Originally Posted by wixard

it's easy for you all to say you think the outrage is ridiculous when it's not your name on the list

my name will be one of the names demanding to be listed

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It won't be a list. It is simple statistics.

To my mind this isn't about skilled work anyway. If HSBC in London is employing 30% French bankers then that's not really an issue. The issue has been and always has been low-skilled immigration into this country in deprived towns. If a fish finger packing factory, being one of the only employers in an area with 50% unemployment is found to be employing 90% Polish workforce then that is morally wrong and unacceptable - do you not agree?

The affect it has on social cohesion, confidence and the social fabric is disasterous. It's got to stop.

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Originally Posted by wixard

and I don't particularly think it's fair that an english person with the same qualifications gets automatically chosen over myself.

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At the end of the day our duty is to the people who are British subjects and living here. Your country left the Union way back in 1922. If you as a foreigner are not needed to fill a job, then I am sorry but that's not our responsibility.

I welcome people if we need them, but certainly not at the expense of my own people: British subjects. My family who moved to Australia did not go demanding changes to the immigration system: they had to abide by it and did so.

If you want all the privileges of British nationality then apply to become a British subject. If not, then *shrugs*

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Originally Posted by wixard

like what agnes io said, what if my personality is more fit for the job? but i'm not british, so i automatically get placed behind them? and lets just say that's not even the case, that's still how i've been made feel and at the moment i feel extremely unwelcome

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This isn't about feelings, this is about reality. A few years ago my aunt's Spanish nanny stated to her how she was shocked that employers here wouldn't put British people first. She remarked how back in Spain employers there will always put their own first because ultimately the future of your own country is your own people.

If you're feeling "unwelcome" that's just because you had must've no idea what the majority of normal British people felt as for the last decade the liberal media and politicians have slurred them for voicing any concerns on migration.

The 23rd June changed all that forever. It's only all come as a shock to people who weren't paying attention tbh.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wixard

just to add, i don't think the whole 'list being made public' is a bad idea with regard to finding employers who are exploiting the system, it's how it's suddenly been put to the public and DEMANDED

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But a large majority of the public back this. Look at the polling I posted.

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Originally Posted by wixard

and how the entire attitude surrounding it is BRITISH PEOPLE FIRST
i have two degrees and studied for one of them in your country, i think i have just as much a right to work there don't you

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The attitude now is British people first because for far too long our own people have been put second.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

You can argue that case for the few skilled immigrants that come but you cannot argue it for the vast majority of immigrants coming who are filling unskilled jobs which less academic Britons are being pushed out of.

If British people aren't willing to work for a measly wage then an employer in a natural market would be forced to up his wages in order to find staff to do the work. Since 2004 however, he's has an endless supply of cheap labour from Eastern Europe with which to keep his wages the same which Britons who have to cope with living costs cannot keep up with.



Indeed. Cheap labour from the continent has been amazing for corporations the last ten years as it has helped push down Britons wages, especially in unskilled jobs. Well thankfully that is now coming to an end.



It won't be a list. It is simple statistics.

To my mind this isn't about skilled work anyway. If HSBC in London is employing 30% French bankers then that's not really an issue. The issue has been and always has been low-skilled immigration into this country in deprived towns. If a fish finger packing factory, being one of the only employers in an area with 50% unemployment is found to be employing 90% Polish workforce then that is morally wrong and unacceptable - do you not agree?

The affect it has on social cohesion, confidence and the social fabric is disasterous. It's got to stop.



At the end of the day our duty is to the people who are British subjects and living here. Your country left the Union way back in 1922. If you as a foreigner are not needed to fill a job, then I am sorry but that's not our responsibility.

I welcome people if we need them, but certainly not at the expense of my own people: British subjects. My family who moved to Australia did not go demanding changes to the immigration system: they had to abide by it and did so.

If you want all the privileges of British nationality then apply to become a British subject. If not, then *shrugs*



This isn't about feelings, this is about reality. A few years ago my aunt's Spanish nanny stated to her how she was shocked that employers here wouldn't put British people first. She remarked how back in Spain employers there will always put their own first because ultimately the future of your own country is your own people.

If you're feeling "unwelcome" that's just because you had must've no idea what the majority of normal British people felt as for the last decade the liberal media and politicians have slurred them for voicing any concerns on migration.

The 23rd June changed all that forever. It's only all come as a shock to people who weren't paying attention tbh.



But a large majority of the public back this. Look at the polling I posted.



The attitude now is British people first because for far too long our own people have been put second.

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So you are a fan of the minimum wage. Hardly a right wing 'kipper.

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Originally Posted by AgnesIO

So you are a fan of the minimum wage. Hardly a right wing 'kipper.

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Where did I say I was a fan of the minimum wage?

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Originally Posted by wixard

it's easy for you all to say you think the outrage is ridiculous when it's not your name on the list

my name will be one of the names demanding to be listed, and I don't particularly think it's fair that an english person with the same qualifications gets automatically chosen over myself.

like what agnes io said, what if my personality is more fit for the job? but i'm not british, so i automatically get placed behind them? and lets just say that's not even the case, that's still how i've been made feel and at the moment i feel extremely unwelcome

- - - Updated - - -

just to add, i don't think the whole 'list being made public' is a bad idea with regard to finding employers who are exploiting the system, it's how it's suddenly been put to the public and DEMANDED

and how the entire attitude surrounding it is BRITISH PEOPLE FIRST
i have two degrees and studied for one of them in your country, i think i have just as much a right to work there don't you

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It's not a list with names though, it's a "we employ 24 workers from overseas" that's all. It's just the same as being "listed" by the government for being a woman at work (which they have to collect as well) I honestly don't see the problem with it? It's not like they're trying to get rid of everyone who hasn't lived here for years, probably just to shame some larger corporations who employ 70% foreign staff rather than British people when they're a British company.

Are you here on a worker visa now?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Where did I say I was a fan of the minimum wage?

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Well, on the basis you despise immigration on the basis it artificially lowers wages, surely you must therefore be in favour of an ever increasing minimum wage - as it means that no amount of immigration can continually lower wages.

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Originally Posted by lawrawrrr

It's not a list with names though, it's a "we employ 24 workers from overseas" that's all. It's just the same as being "listed" by the government for being a woman at work (which they have to collect as well) I honestly don't see the problem with it? It's not like they're trying to get rid of everyone who hasn't lived here for years, probably just to shame some larger corporations who employ 70% foreign staff rather than British people when they're a British company.

Are you here on a worker visa now?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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oh my god what? NO

this just shows how uninformed you all are!

i'm a european citizen and i'm also irish, no worker visa is NEEDED

even if we take being european out of the equation, ireland and the UK have an agreement where both can work and move freely between the countries since the 1920s, however with the UK leaving europe we're in the process of trying to reestablish it and we're not too sure what will happen since Ireland will still be in the EU therefore there are border issues.

Fallon has announced this isn't happening.

A win for the majority.

Jimmy Fallon?

But yeah I thought you were in favour of the free market Dan rather than imposing specific levels of wages on businesses and letting government dictate how private companies can work

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Originally Posted by AgnesIO

Well, on the basis you despise immigration on the basis it artificially lowers wages, surely you must therefore be in favour of an ever increasing minimum wage - as it means that no amount of immigration can continually lower wages.

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There's no connection between the two - see what I said to @FlyingJesus;

Mass immigration I would end (as is happening) so there wouldn't be this problem.

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Originally Posted by wixard

oh my god what? NO

this just shows how uninformed you all are!

i'm a european citizen and i'm also irish, no worker visa is NEEDED

even if we take being european out of the equation, ireland and the UK have an agreement where both can work and move freely between the countries since the 1920s, however with the UK leaving europe we're in the process of trying to reestablish it and we're not too sure what will happen since Ireland will still be in the EU therefore there are border issues.

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If the border becomes an issue with checkpoints then so what?

I keep hearing you go on about this but I don't quite understand why?

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Originally Posted by AgnesIO

Fallon has announced this isn't happening.

A win for the majority.

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The majority!? What planet are you living on... did you pay any attention to the polling on this?

The Home Secretary and the Education Secretary (who was just on Peston an hour or two ago) say otherwise.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

But yeah I thought you were in favour of the free market Dan rather than imposing specific levels of wages on businesses and letting government dictate how private companies can work

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I haven't said I support a specific level of wage on business though. I simply said that business shouldn't be able to artificially depress workers wages by an endless supply of cheap labour from Eastern Europe. In normal market conditions, wages would rise naturally if the cost of living (for Britons) wasn't worth working for the wage hence the employer would then be forced to raise his wages.

If a farmer is paying £6.50 an hour in Kent to package products and no British people are applying then he should be raising his wage (as most businesses have to do) to get staff. Instead, he simply hires Poles and Lithuanians.

one country is going to be in the EU and the other country will not be for the first time since the agreement, how is that so hard to comprehend?

it predates the EU but that doesn't mean it's set in stone

for someone so invested you should probably read up on it, UK-irish bilateral trade is huge and nobody has given any answers


this might help you

http://sluggerotoole.com/2016/10/06/...lly-need-them/

To me, a business should ultimately be allowed to employ whoever they want. I'm not a huge fan of companies being forced to publish this kind of data as it doesn't really serve much other than "muh representation" or some shite and will probably just be used as a political tool.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

There's no connection between the two - see what I said to @FlyingJesus;

Mass immigration I would end (as is happening) so there wouldn't be this problem.



If the border becomes an issue with checkpoints then so what?

I keep hearing you go on about this but I don't quite understand why?



The majority!? What planet are you living on... did you pay any attention to the polling on this?

The Home Secretary and the Education Secretary (who was just on Peston an hour or two ago) say otherwise.



I haven't said I support a specific level of wage on business though. I simply said that business shouldn't be able to artificially depress workers wages by an endless supply of cheap labour from Eastern Europe. In normal market conditions, wages would rise naturally if the cost of living (for Britons) wasn't worth working for the wage hence the employer would then be forced to raise his wages.

If a farmer is paying £6.50 an hour in Kent to package products and no British people are applying then he should be raising his wage (as most businesses have to do) to get staff. Instead, he simply hires Poles and Lithuanians.

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Perhaps British workers should stop feeling so entitled to a middle class lifestyle, and earning what the job is worth?

I'm not asking for people to be poor, but your logic is flawed as British workers simply don't want to do jobs that they view to be 'below them'.

If they can't get a job doing anything else, they shouldn't have the choice to take nothing.

YouGov surveys aren't truly representative, either; they do a good job, but ignore a vast amount of the population as they are only done online, aren't they?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

If a farmer is paying £6.50 an hour in Kent to package products and no British people are applying then he should be raising his wage (as most businesses have to do) to get staff. Instead, he simply hires Poles and Lithuanians.

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Yeah because it's a free market. Which you claim to support. You either do or don't, a "yes except..." answer isn't a yes, and being FORCED to raise wages is not in the interests of a free market and 100% is an introduction of specific wage levels. There's nothing artificial about what people are paid, and there's nothing normal about making businesses block people from working because they're willing to do it for less

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Originally Posted by wixard

one country is going to be in the EU and the other country will not be for the first time since the agreement, how is that so hard to comprehend?

it predates the EU but that doesn't mean it's set in stone

for someone so invested you should probably read up on it, UK-irish bilateral trade is huge and nobody has given any answers

this might help you

http://sluggerotoole.com/2016/10/06/...lly-need-them/

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I am aware of the past agreements which have been effectively superseded by European Union agreements. And this has what to do with us because to seem to be complaining about it in every thread it comes up? The Republic of Ireland remains in the European Union and thus is subject to the Single Market and the Freedom of Movement principle: the United Kingdom no longer will be having voted to Leave. It's pretty clear what that means. You'll be subjects to the constraints of Brussels and we won't be.

The answers will come once your masters in Brussels have decided for you. That's not our problem or fault is it?

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Originally Posted by AgnesIO

Perhaps British workers should stop feeling so entitled to a middle class lifestyle, and earning what the job is worth?

I'm not asking for people to be poor, but your logic is flawed as British workers simply don't want to do jobs that they view to be 'below them'.

If they can't get a job doing anything else, they shouldn't have the choice to take nothing.

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What's really so hard to understand about this issue? British workers have families, mortgages, quality of life and rents to pay for. Therefore, for a British worker to work it must therefore be WORTH it in financial terms. If an employer is struggling to hire staff in the unskilled sector in an area of high unemployment, then the employer is not offering enough.

Now then I am sure you point out how Polish men will do the work. Of course. And that's because they don't have families to pay for here, they don't have mortgages to pay for, they don't have any quality of life other than working and sleeping and their rent is very low given how they'll sleep 6 to a room in bunk beds.

So is your answer for Britons to start competing with Poles in living conditions like that?

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Originally Posted by AgnesIO

YouGov surveys aren't truly representative, either; they do a good job, but ignore a vast amount of the population as they are only done online, aren't they?

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Typical from someone who doesn't like the results of a scientific poll to question it.

The majority support this measure and just because your social media feed or the Guardian comments page say otherwise is irrelevant. There's many topics and issues in polling that I find conflict with what I believe but I don't then go to rubbish it and claim to still be championing majority opinion just because me, my friends and all the comments on the Daily Mail said so. :P

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

Yeah because it's a free market. Which you claim to support. You either do or don't, a "yes except..." answer isn't a yes, and being FORCED to raise wages is not in the interests of a free market and 100% is an introduction of specific wage levels. There's nothing artificial about what people are paid, and there's nothing normal about making businesses block people from working because they're willing to do it for less

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Where did I say forced to raise wages or blocking people? Misunderstanding here what I am saying.

I am not for artificial measures such as a minimum wage or raising a minimum wage. But I am also not for artificial measures such as importing huge numbers of workers from Eastern Europe who'll work in second world living conditions for a pittance wage. Now how's that against my free market principles? I'm very free market: with controlled borders.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Where did I say forced to raise wages or blocking people?

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

If British people aren't willing to work for a measly wage then an employer in a natural market would be forced to up his wages in order to find staff to do the work

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Again nothing "natural" about it, and if you want to force this situation, you're for forcing wage increases against the free market

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

But I am also not for artificial measures such as importing huge numbers of workers from Eastern Europe who'll work in second world living conditions for a pittance wage

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How is someone's real living condition artificial? Unless a person is literally enslaved then working what you're willing to work for the wage you're willing to receive is 100% what the free market is about, not saying to businesses "ok but you can't hire them because I don't want you to"

Fallon didn't say it wouldn't be happening:

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Originally Posted by BBC News

UK companies will not be told to list or name foreign workers they employ, the government has said.
Defence Secretary Sir Michael Fallon told the BBC: "This is not going to happen" but said firms could be asked "simply to report their numbers".
That data could help identify skills gaps or be a factor in deciding whether to grant firms more visas for overseas workers, a government source said.

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Wasn't that always the policy? Admittedly, I didn't listen to Rudd's speech but I always thought it was going to be a reporting of the numbers/percentage of foreign workers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37600566

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

Again nothing "natural" about it, and if you want to force this situation, you're for forcing wage increases against the free market

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It isn't forcing anything.

Look. When we talk about markets and free markets, unless you're a total anarchist we're talking about our own in this country to which our rules, ways and people apply mostly. Countries are like cells: you have an outer wall and that outer wall is the end of your internal market. Now having total access to other countries in terms of immigration is an artificial addition to our market given how it essentially extends a right that usually comes with British nationality to tens of millions of other people in Eastern Europe. That's only come about since 2004. So you've essentially got a situation where our internal market has been opened up to tens of millions of workers from other markets where the wages and living conditions are vastly different but they now have the unrestricted right to come here.

That's aritificial. It's like if we took your "ha got you on the free market" idea to the extreme (anarchy) then we'd saying we should abolish all product safety checks on imports from Africa and South America "becuz the free market" well no because by dropping all checks and balances on outside forces you then cease to have a market and you have total anarchy.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

How is someone's real living condition artificial? Unless a person is literally enslaved then working what you're willing to work for the wage you're willing to receive is 100% what the free market is about, not saying to businesses "ok but you can't hire them because I don't want you to"

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For the reasons I explained to @AgnesIO;

If proponents of open borders are arguing that British workers should compete and live in the conditions that Polish workers do (6 to a room, no quality of life, working round the clock) then I say go right ahead.

But to me there's more than worshipping the market and GDP. There's such a thing as our society.

So in your world anything that's not the way it was in the past is artificial, ignoring the fact that it's entirely real and not nearly as made up as your idea that everyone from Poland sleeps like sardines

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

So in your world anything that's not the way it was in the past is artificial, ignoring the fact that it's entirely real and not nearly as made up as your idea that everyone from Poland sleeps like sardines

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No... it's artificial in the sense it isn't a normal market condition just as slavery wasn't a normal market condition back two hundred years ago: it allowed business owners to access a new source of very cheap labour outside that normal market on a vast scale. Those workers from Eastern Europe are from other markets and in many cases function as though they belong to those markets still: hence the sleeping like sardines, sending virtually all of their money over to their families and so on.

But if it really makes you happy to say I don't support the free market to the very extreme then sure. Or else i'd be an anarchist.

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Originally Posted by Inseriousity.

Fallon didn't say it wouldn't be happening:

That data could help identify skills gaps or be a factor in deciding whether to grant firms more visas for overseas workers, a government source said.


Wasn't that always the policy? Admittedly, I didn't listen to Rudd's speech but I always thought it was going to be a reporting of the numbers/percentage of foreign workers.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37600566

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Excellent, glad it is still going ahead.

I was watching the Education Secretary Justine Greening on Peston this morning. She stated that the policy was going ahead, but that companies wouldn't have to publish the lists but simply report to the government. Her answer seemed to imply that the government is doing this to gauge what controls we're going to need on our new immigration system once we've left the EU.

I would expect they'd do this by looking at sector by sector and seeing the % of foreigners and then set work permits on that. In other words if a sector is clearly only taking on foreigners then result: denying foreigners work permits in future for that sector.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

What's really so hard to understand about this issue? British workers have families, mortgages, quality of life and rents to pay for. Therefore, for a British worker to work it must therefore be WORTH it in financial terms. If an employer is struggling to hire staff in the unskilled sector in an area of high unemployment, then the employer is not offering enough.

Now then I am sure you point out how Polish men will do the work. Of course. And that's because they don't have families to pay for here, they don't have mortgages to pay for, they don't have any quality of life other than working and sleeping and their rent is very low given how they'll sleep 6 to a room in bunk beds.

So is your answer for Britons to start competing with Poles in living conditions like that?



Typical from someone who doesn't like the results of a scientific poll to question it.

The majority support this measure and just because your social media feed or the Guardian comments page say otherwise is irrelevant. There's many topics and issues in polling that I find conflict with what I believe but I don't then go to rubbish it and claim to still be championing majority opinion just because me, my friends and all the comments on the Daily Mail said so. :P



Where did I say forced to raise wages or blocking people? Misunderstanding here what I am saying.

I am not for artificial measures such as a minimum wage or raising a minimum wage. But I am also not for artificial measures such as importing huge numbers of workers from Eastern Europe who'll work in second world living conditions for a pittance wage. Now how's that against my free market principles? I'm very free market: with controlled borders.

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It would be 'worth it' if they cannot do nothing for more money. It only isn't worth it when benefit payments are too high, which then forces people into the poverty trap as they have no motivation for self-improvement. These British workers who 'need' more money than being offered can (usually) still afford non-essential items, so I'll stand by my argument that they simply don't want to do the jobs.

You mean in the same way that you refuse to accept social media (the data of which is worth billions of dollars annually)? Also, I can't say I have ever gone to the Guardian's website without following a link on here (nor the pathetic excuse rag/the Daily Mail...).

I think it is quite clear that polls still have a flawed aspect to them (cough "UKIP GOING TO GET LOADS OF SEATS IN THE 2015 ELECTION!!!!!!!" - or half what they had before, as was actually the case). Doesn't yougov pay people to do surveys, as well? That also makes the data a little more questionable than it would otherwise be.

- - - Updated - - -

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

No... it's artificial in the sense it isn't a normal market condition just as slavery wasn't a normal market condition back two hundred years ago: it allowed business owners to access a new source of very cheap labour outside that normal market on a vast scale.

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Comparing this to slavery... :rolleyes:

Remove the minimum wage, remove immigrants, remove benefits. Now you have normal market conditions.

(I don't recommend this, by the way - just making the point...)

People saving money by living frugally is now "abnormal" market conditions

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Originally Posted by AgnesIO

It would be 'worth it' if they cannot do nothing for more money. It only isn't worth it when benefit payments are too high, which then forces people into the poverty trap as they have no motivation for self-improvement. These British workers who 'need' more money than being offered can (usually) still afford non-essential items, so I'll stand by my argument that they simply don't want to do the jobs.

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Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. If a Briton like any of the rest of us happens to be unskilled, they aspire like you or I to have a child or two and to rent a flat or to buy a house - as well as go out once in a while. Many of these lower paid jobs simply do not cover the costs, especially when children come into the equation. The Polish men can afford to do the job because they don't have those responsibilities or even if they do have children their children are back home where every GBP they earn counts for a hell of a lot more than it does here.

There's more to society than GDP. What about the quality of life and society we're building? A race to the bottom.

If you think Britons should compete for lower level jobs on wages that aren't economically worth it like the Poles then you're perfectly entitled to think that from your ivory tower. It's just a shame your Remain side during the referendum didn't say that in the Debates because you know what? Instead of winning by 4% we'd of won by 30%.

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Originally Posted by AgnesIO

You mean in the same way that you refuse to accept social media (the data of which is worth billions of dollars annually)? Also, I can't say I have ever gone to the Guardian's website without following a link on here (nor the pathetic excuse rag/the Daily Mail...).

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Social media has no bearing on the real world I am afraid. I place my faith in scientific surveys and polls for the social sciences which have a record of decades in these areas. Your twitter feed/Facebook feed only usually serves to confirm your own biases.

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Originally Posted by AgnesIO

I think it is quite clear that polls still have a flawed aspect to them (cough "UKIP GOING TO GET LOADS OF SEATS IN THE 2015 ELECTION!!!!!!!" - or half what they had before, as was actually the case). Doesn't yougov pay people to do surveys, as well? That also makes the data a little more questionable than it would otherwise be.

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People pay YouGov to do surveys, yes.

All polling data is published in the methodology and YouGov abides by the rules of the British Polling Council.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. If a Briton like any of the rest of us happens to be unskilled, they aspire like you or I to have a child or two and to rent a flat or to buy a house - as well as go out once in a while. Many of these lower paid jobs simply do not cover the costs, especially when children come into the equation. The Polish men can afford to do the job because they don't have those responsibilities or even if they do have children their children are back home where every GBP they earn counts for a hell of a lot more than it does here.

There's more to society than GDP. What about the quality of life and society we're building? A race to the bottom.

If you think Britons should compete for lower level jobs on wages that aren't economically worth it like the Poles then you're perfectly entitled to think that from your ivory tower. It's just a shame your Remain side during the referendum didn't say that in the Debates because you know what? Instead of winning by 4% we'd of won by 30%.



Social media has no bearing on the real world I am afraid. I place my faith in scientific surveys and polls for the social sciences which have a record of decades in these areas. Your twitter feed/Facebook feed only usually serves to confirm your own biases.



People pay YouGov to do surveys, yes.

All polling data is published in the methodology and YouGov abides by the rules of the British Polling Council.

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Aspiring to do something and being capable of doing it are two different things. Immigrants don't make it impossible to do those things; there will always be people who cannot do what others can do due to economic boundaries. That's the nature of capitalism.

Let's be honest, the Leave side wouldn't have won if they didn't make outrageous lies (£350m a week to the NHS...). They are only not 'economically worth it', because there is a more profitable alternative; benefits.

Social media DOES have a bearing on the real world, and almost every major corporation in the world accepts that. Why don't you? I don't use my personal feeds to gain an opinion.

Yes, and YouGov also pay people to do surveys. That, in itself, causes small issues.