Business/Foreign Workers

[-:Undertaker:-]

So in your world anything that's not the way it was in the past is artificial, ignoring the fact that it's entirely real and not nearly as made up as your idea that everyone from Poland sleeps like sardines

No... it's artificial in the sense it isn't a normal market condition just as slavery wasn't a normal market condition back two hundred years ago: it allowed business owners to access a new source of very cheap labour outside that normal market on a vast scale. Those workers from Eastern Europe are from other markets and in many cases function as though they belong to those markets still: hence the sleeping like sardines, sending virtually all of their money over to their families and so on.

But if it really makes you happy to say I don't support the free market to the very extreme then sure. Or else i'd be an anarchist.

Fallon didn't say it wouldn't be happening:

That data could help identify skills gaps or be a factor in deciding whether to grant firms more visas for overseas workers, a government source said.


Wasn't that always the policy? Admittedly, I didn't listen to Rudd's speech but I always thought it was going to be a reporting of the numbers/percentage of foreign workers.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37600566

Excellent, glad it is still going ahead.

I was watching the Education Secretary Justine Greening on Peston this morning. She stated that the policy was going ahead, but that companies wouldn't have to publish the lists but simply report to the government. Her answer seemed to imply that the government is doing this to gauge what controls we're going to need on our new immigration system once we've left the EU.

I would expect they'd do this by looking at sector by sector and seeing the % of foreigners and then set work permits on that. In other words if a sector is clearly only taking on foreigners then result: denying foreigners work permits in future for that sector.

[AgnesIO]

What's really so hard to understand about this issue? British workers have families, mortgages, quality of life and rents to pay for. Therefore, for a British worker to work it must therefore be WORTH it in financial terms. If an employer is struggling to hire staff in the unskilled sector in an area of high unemployment, then the employer is not offering enough.

Now then I am sure you point out how Polish men will do the work. Of course. And that's because they don't have families to pay for here, they don't have mortgages to pay for, they don't have any quality of life other than working and sleeping and their rent is very low given how they'll sleep 6 to a room in bunk beds.

So is your answer for Britons to start competing with Poles in living conditions like that?



Typical from someone who doesn't like the results of a scientific poll to question it.

The majority support this measure and just because your social media feed or the Guardian comments page say otherwise is irrelevant. There's many topics and issues in polling that I find conflict with what I believe but I don't then go to rubbish it and claim to still be championing majority opinion just because me, my friends and all the comments on the Daily Mail said so.



Where did I say forced to raise wages or blocking people? Misunderstanding here what I am saying.

I am not for artificial measures such as a minimum wage or raising a minimum wage. But I am also not for artificial measures such as importing huge numbers of workers from Eastern Europe who'll work in second world living conditions for a pittance wage. Now how's that against my free market principles? I'm very free market: with controlled borders.

It would be 'worth it' if they cannot do nothing for more money. It only isn't worth it when benefit payments are too high, which then forces people into the poverty trap as they have no motivation for self-improvement. These British workers who 'need' more money than being offered can (usually) still afford non-essential items, so I'll stand by my argument that they simply don't want to do the jobs.

You mean in the same way that you refuse to accept social media (the data of which is worth billions of dollars annually)? Also, I can't say I have ever gone to the Guardian's website without following a link on here (nor the pathetic excuse rag/the Daily Mail...).

I think it is quite clear that polls still have a flawed aspect to them (cough "UKIP GOING TO GET LOADS OF SEATS IN THE 2015 ELECTION!!!!!!!" - or half what they had before, as was actually the case). Doesn't yougov pay people to do surveys, as well? That also makes the data a little more questionable than it would otherwise be.

- - - Updated - - -

No... it's artificial in the sense it isn't a normal market condition just as slavery wasn't a normal market condition back two hundred years ago: it allowed business owners to access a new source of very cheap labour outside that normal market on a vast scale.

Comparing this to slavery... :rolleyes:

Remove the minimum wage, remove immigrants, remove benefits. Now you have normal market conditions.

(I don't recommend this, by the way - just making the point...)

[FlyingJesus]

People saving money by living frugally is now "abnormal" market conditions

[-:Undertaker:-]

It would be 'worth it' if they cannot do nothing for more money. It only isn't worth it when benefit payments are too high, which then forces people into the poverty trap as they have no motivation for self-improvement. These British workers who 'need' more money than being offered can (usually) still afford non-essential items, so I'll stand by my argument that they simply don't want to do the jobs.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. If a Briton like any of the rest of us happens to be unskilled, they aspire like you or I to have a child or two and to rent a flat or to buy a house - as well as go out once in a while. Many of these lower paid jobs simply do not cover the costs, especially when children come into the equation. The Polish men can afford to do the job because they don't have those responsibilities or even if they do have children their children are back home where every GBP they earn counts for a hell of a lot more than it does here.

There's more to society than GDP. What about the quality of life and society we're building? A race to the bottom.

If you think Britons should compete for lower level jobs on wages that aren't economically worth it like the Poles then you're perfectly entitled to think that from your ivory tower. It's just a shame your Remain side during the referendum didn't say that in the Debates because you know what? Instead of winning by 4% we'd of won by 30%.

You mean in the same way that you refuse to accept social media (the data of which is worth billions of dollars annually)? Also, I can't say I have ever gone to the Guardian's website without following a link on here (nor the pathetic excuse rag/the Daily Mail...).

Social media has no bearing on the real world I am afraid. I place my faith in scientific surveys and polls for the social sciences which have a record of decades in these areas. Your twitter feed/Facebook feed only usually serves to confirm your own biases.

I think it is quite clear that polls still have a flawed aspect to them (cough "UKIP GOING TO GET LOADS OF SEATS IN THE 2015 ELECTION!!!!!!!" - or half what they had before, as was actually the case). Doesn't yougov pay people to do surveys, as well? That also makes the data a little more questionable than it would otherwise be.

People pay YouGov to do surveys, yes.

All polling data is published in the methodology and YouGov abides by the rules of the British Polling Council.

[AgnesIO]

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. If a Briton like any of the rest of us happens to be unskilled, they aspire like you or I to have a child or two and to rent a flat or to buy a house - as well as go out once in a while. Many of these lower paid jobs simply do not cover the costs, especially when children come into the equation. The Polish men can afford to do the job because they don't have those responsibilities or even if they do have children their children are back home where every GBP they earn counts for a hell of a lot more than it does here.

There's more to society than GDP. What about the quality of life and society we're building? A race to the bottom.

If you think Britons should compete for lower level jobs on wages that aren't economically worth it like the Poles then you're perfectly entitled to think that from your ivory tower. It's just a shame your Remain side during the referendum didn't say that in the Debates because you know what? Instead of winning by 4% we'd of won by 30%.



Social media has no bearing on the real world I am afraid. I place my faith in scientific surveys and polls for the social sciences which have a record of decades in these areas. Your twitter feed/Facebook feed only usually serves to confirm your own biases.



People pay YouGov to do surveys, yes.

All polling data is published in the methodology and YouGov abides by the rules of the British Polling Council.

Aspiring to do something and being capable of doing it are two different things. Immigrants don't make it impossible to do those things; there will always be people who cannot do what others can do due to economic boundaries. That's the nature of capitalism.

Let's be honest, the Leave side wouldn't have won if they didn't make outrageous lies (£350m a week to the NHS...). They are only not 'economically worth it', because there is a more profitable alternative; benefits.

Social media DOES have a bearing on the real world, and almost every major corporation in the world accepts that. Why don't you? I don't use my personal feeds to gain an opinion.

Yes, and YouGov also pay people to do surveys. That, in itself, causes small issues.