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https://news.sky.com/story/donald-tr...virus-12087447
Trump and Melania have tested positive for COVID-19. Given the recent debate, it's also a slight possiblity Joe Biden and his wife could be infected (among many others) but no word on that yet. Oh, and Pence might have been exposed to the virus too when visiting the oval office.
Crazy stuff but not terribly surprising. Hopefully anyone who has it or gets it makes a full recovery.
Like 99% of everyone who gets this virus he'll probably be alright.
So is Jair Bolsonaro, current Brazil's president, although asymptomatic! What an unintended pattern, if you get it. Things are going uberwell
Trump is being taken to hosptial now for "precautionary measures". Giving me a bit of deja vu with what happened to Boris Johnson, but more fast paced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
where do you get those stats from and how do you define “alright” in this context? lol
in the usa the mortality rate of COVID-19 cases has been about 2.9%, according to Johns-Hopkins University of Medicine. keep in mind that’s only the dead people and they are definitely not doing alright, being dead and all. then I also look at data from other countries and see that the UK, for example, has reported a slightly more worrying figure of 9.1% mortality rate in cases. again, that’s only the dead people. just because the rest of the cases may have survived does not mean they are all hopping and skipping cheerfully out of recovery and are considered to be “alright”, health-wise.
there does seem to be a correlation between pre-existing health conditions (ie morbid obesity, trump..) and a higher chance of death. but I mean boris johnson pulled through and many others who were not in exactly the most of prime health upon infection, so who knows what will happen with trump lol. hopefully, if anything, it gives him some enlightenment if he actually does pull through, but to me the odds of that happening seem even more remote than the odds of his survival lol
when RBG died, the left was like omg don't make fun of her she was an amazing woman!!
Trump gets Covid: lol orangeman bad pls can he die
I hate the us left
I still think this is some form of popiganda to keep binden out of the limelight in order to win over voters.
Nevertheless I hope hes okay in the long run.
Well yes, not having a tax payment history and being infected with something one had a belief that wasn't a thing is a stealthy psychological hit to make us to give him the throne once more
I'm pretty much on Lord Sumptions' level with this Coronavirus now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJPF5j129QQ
The deaths from the virus are overwhelmingly - and from those around me who have died of this virus - very old and very sick. A 94 year old dying from this virus is no more surprising than a 94 year old dying from a bad bout of flu or a case of pnuemonia. At 94, it is not unusual to die but we do not lock down the economy and place everyone under very draconian laws to stop the inevitable. The virus is not particularly deadly, and it is endemic now and isn't going anywhere - the only thing to do is to return to normal to acquire herd immunity amongst the healthy population whilst shielding those who are vulnerable.
The mortality rate I question - we know for a large amount of people they have no symptoms, so the amount of the population who have already been unknowingly exposed to the virus could be much higher than we think. I know a distant relative by marriage in this position who felt nothing but tested positive for antibodies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Googlemere
I'm convinced I had it myself between Christmas and New Year but with symptoms.
what a fucking dumb comparison
first of all the mortality rate goes up when you start hitting ~40/50 years old, and if someone died of flu at that age I would be extremely surprised
secondly, we have much more mature mitigations and treatments against flu and pneumonia
thirdly, covid-19 has caused far more deaths than both you have listed this year so far
finally, you do not consider any long term complications that of the virus
you really just have the attitude of "fuck you, got mine"
Even if you DO just look at the "very old and very sick", I'd personally say that many thousands of people dying before their time due to a single new complication in common is something to be concerned about.
On the actual topic of the thread, incredible how he magically recovered in a couple of days so that he could make more claims about what a superhuman creature he is and how he's now saved the world from China and Fake New Media (:
The virus isn't going anywhere. What's your solution, keep society permanently locked down?Quote:
Originally Posted by dbgtz
My attitude is exactly what Lord Sumption is saying. Logic.
I'm not writing them off, but the reality must be acknowledged. My Grandad passed away in February this year from Pnuemonia, and although I was obviously upset and (sort of) surprised he was 89 years old, had an immune condition/dementia/had had strokes. I'm sure he could have gone on for a bit longer, but at the end of the day he was 89 and something has to give. My friend's grandmother died aged 89 from COVID this summer, and even he said had it not been COVID that got her it would have been some other flu/pnuemonia/virus/condition a month or two later because she was fast declining in health. Another friend had a 94-year old grandmother who died from COVID this summer too, but she was..... 94. At 94 a simple flu can take you out and does take many of them out every year but we don't lockdown society.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingJesus
Still over 30,000 corona-related deaths in England and Wales for those under 85, you're massively underplaying this and still missing the point that this is something new and additional that is killing people as well as flu/pneumonia, not a replacement
The average age in Britain is around 80, these sorts of figures really are not surprising.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingJesus
30,000 deaths (how many are with other conditions?) out of a population of nearly 70 million Britons.
All are with other conditions, that's how corona works. Should probably know that before getting into debates about it
Indeed, and my point being that many of those wouldn't make it out of hospital/would be back in and have died a few weeks/months later anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingJesus
Very old, chronically ill with multiple conditions like my Grandad was. If pnuemonia hadn't of took him it would've been flu, coronavirus or something else.
1) Wow that is incredibly callous and amounts to saying we shouldn't bother caring for anyone because they'll die at some point anyway
2) Stop. Ignoring. The. Facts. Not everyone (by a loooooooooooooooong shot) who has died or severely suffered with corona is old and weak. Your granddad is not the entire world population, and referring only to him and his peers makes no sense here. You talk about "the reality" of things but then base your entire argument on anecdotal data rather than the science
Not at all. I care a lot about the elderly and as a family with two grandparents who've had/have dementia, had a lot of experience with the health/care system including homes which my Grandad spent his last two years in. The fact is, as the manageress there also said, most people in homes last two years on average - they're very sick and frail people who are nearing the end of their lives. If you're going to shut down society, you cannot do so on the basis of giving very old and very sick people a possible few more days/weeks/months of a very reduced quality of life which quite frankly is not worth living.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingJesus
I would protect the care homes as best I could, but even then - given these people are in the final stage of life, is it really worth denying them contact with their loved ones so that they gain an extra few weeks/months of life where they do not see their family or go out? If my Grandad were still here now, I would deem the risk of seeing him worth it vs possibility of Coronavirus. As Lord Sumption said, life is only worth it if we're living.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingJesus
No, but the vast majority of those dying from the virus are.
Normal relatively healthy people also die from the flu every year.
30,000 healthy young people do not die every year from flu. You're not even spouting bad opinions now, you're just being flat out wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBC
Herd immunity is being achieved/has to be achieved while the politicians and scientists scratch their heads. It's the only way.
We never experienced the first wave properly because all a lockdown does is delay the inevitable, that the virus must burn itself out through the population.
except it doesnt need to "burn itself through the population" since theres a massive focus on a vaccine at the moment
you're basically saying we should let people die prematurely because you're selfish
and if you hadnt voted in the current lot of monkeys then coronavirus may never have even been much of an issue short of travel restrictions
do you wear a mask undertaker
Are you saying we should keep society locked down until there's a vaccine, even if that is years/decades away?Quote:
Originally Posted by dbgtz
We already let the very elderly who are chronically sick "die prematurely" (as in lose a final few days, weeks or months) as it is clear their health is failing and they are near the end, and that sustaining them for a slightly longer period with intrusive medical interventions is not fair on them in terms of quality of life.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbgtz
My 89-year old grandfather was offered intrusive respirator/tubes down nose to feed which probably would've kept him alive for a few more days or even weeks, but he sensibly turned it down himself and we as a family did not want this to happen and nor did the Doctor. It's the same with resusitation on the very old - care homes advise you to sign a DNR order as although resusitating them can bring them back, their final weeks/months are then spent with a broken rib cage because the resus process is so brutal on the body. We also instructed the hospital not to resusitate if his heart stopped with the stress of pnuemonia/sepsis on his body.
Much like we already weigh these things up on an individual level, the health and wellbeing of society as a whole must also be included in our judgement.
In Spain I do wear a mask as I feel I have no right to question it given it is not my country.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbgtz
At home, only around 30% of people in Liverpool were wearing a mask in shops. I mostly did not, nor does my 85 year old Grandfather.
Choosing not to intubate someone who's already past the point that they can actually survive a condition is not the same thing as refusing to give a shit about lessening the spread of a new strain of virus before people catch it. Not the same at all.
I have just read the Daily Mail comments section and it reflects increasingly what I hear, that more and more people are fed up running from this rather timid virus and aren't going to be following anymore draconian restrictions. Comment after comment saying the same thing. Backbench Tory MPs need to do what they were threatening before they caved the other week, and block this nonsense as the Spanish regional governments are doing.
If people feel scared/at risk/vulnerable then they should be free to choose to shield themselves. But let the rest of us get on with our lives.
Do you give a toss about the livelihoods of millions which are being destroyed? Do you give a toss about the businesses that people have built up that are disappearing up in smoke? Do you give a toss about the cancers, heart diseases and other conditions in healthy younger segments of the population that are going undiagnosed and untreated? Do you give a toss about the previously active old people in their twilight years who are wasting away both mentally and in body at home?Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingJesus
Supporters of these lockdown measures still refuse to acknowledge that the virus is now endemic in the population, that's it. There's no point wishing it were not so given that it is and it's a relatively mild disease that most people have no idea they even have until a test tells them they do, for how long are you prepared to lockdown society?
I've been furloughed since May and don't know how long my job will exist for so yes I do care about those things and am directly affected by them. I do however care more about people not LITERALLY DYING BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T LIKE MASKS. You're proving again and again that you have absolutely no compassion for human life, and bringing up new random arguments over and over (because as always you can't stick to one train of thought for more than 2 posts) doesn't help the way you look. You're selfish, you're arrogant, and you're dangerous
A good article tonight in The Sun by Lord Sumption.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/128866...avirus-crisis/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB_RUgFRVNw
"A lockdown does not prevent deaths it only spreads them over a longer period."
Masks have been compulsory in Spain even outside walking alone and Spain has some of the highest virus rates in Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingJesus
Why will you not tell me how long you're willing to keep subjecting society to draconian measures and lockdowns for?
Oh good, another new tangent. Which measures do you mean? We don't currently HAVE a lockdown here so you're not making any sense with that one, wearing masks I have no problem with at all as it's a very minor inconvenience if one at all, and distancing rules absolutely make sense in the short term while other solutions are formulated. Whether that's a proper vaccine or just better and clearer restriction methods that take into account actual data (which I don't believe many of the current ones do, it's all a bit guess-and-hope hence people not following guidance properly), something more long-term needs to be put in place. It's interesting that you've assumed I support full lockdowns despite having not said any such thing
I've heard about plenty of younger people (younger in this case meaning like 20s) dying from coronavirus. All it takes is having something like asthma to really cause a struggle when partnered with Corona. In that case, a lot of people have asthma, so that would not cause a good mix.
My family and I had/have it, and it was definitely not a good time. I have the stomach flu two years ago and I would do that 3 times over than to deal with Corona. There were a few days where I literally couldn't do anything. My dad ended up having to go to the ER because he has heart disease, and he is only 61. LUCKILY, he is doing better. It's been over a week now, almost two, and we all are still having issues from it, whether that's weakness, or constant coughing.
Definitely not something to downplay.
its not years or decades awayQuote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
ridiculous comparisonQuote:
We already let the very elderly who are chronically sick "die prematurely" (as in lose a final few days, weeks or months) as it is clear their health is failing and they are near the end, and that sustaining them for a slightly longer period with intrusive medical interventions is not fair on them in terms of quality of life.
My 89-year old grandfather was offered intrusive respirator/tubes down nose to feed which probably would've kept him alive for a few more days or even weeks, but he sensibly turned it down himself and we as a family did not want this to happen and nor did the Doctor. It's the same with resusitation on the very old - care homes advise you to sign a DNR order as although resusitating them can bring them back, their final weeks/months are then spent with a broken rib cage because the resus process is so brutal on the body. We also instructed the hospital not to resusitate if his heart stopped with the stress of pnuemonia/sepsis on his body.
Much like we already weigh these things up on an individual level, the health and wellbeing of society as a whole must also be included in our judgement.
Quote:
In Spain I do wear a mask as I feel I have no right to question it given it is not my country.
At home, only around 30% of people in Liverpool were wearing a mask in shops. I mostly did not, nor does my 85 year old Grandfather.
nice to know how selfish you are with your made up statistics
even if you dont believe it helps, on the off chance it does there is 0 reason to not wear one given how little effort it takes
i dont think youre one to make a point about giving a toss about businessesQuote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Part of the reason for locking down in the first place is to limit the burden on the healthcare system - that in itself will impact these treatmentsQuote:
Do you give a toss about the cancers, heart diseases and other conditions in healthy younger segments of the population that are going undiagnosed and untreated?
you say that as if they can't leave their home or do anything at allQuote:
Do you give a toss about the previously active old people in their twilight years who are wasting away both mentally and in body at home?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_6p2jdbm6U
Those with severe underlying health conditions should of course have the option to stay at home and supermarkets delivering food/health services and so on should be giving them priority. However, we cannot lock down the entire population and subject them to draconian laws over a disease that mainly kills people who are over 80 years old, are chronically sick (often with dementia) and are in their final days/weeks/months anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiexo
I also had a terrible flu between Christmas and New Year which I suspect was Coronavirus. But sickness is part of life.
How do you know? As far as I am aware no vaccine has been developed for any Coronavirus.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbgtz
HIV has been researched for years yet no vaccination exists, and the common flu continues to evade us.
What I decide to wear and what chances I take are a matter for me, and not an overzealous state.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbgtz
The lockdown recession is an actual real recession, not an imaginary one like the one you thought we'd have if we left the EU.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbgtz
Now that the burden is lifted and hospitals have remained empty - including Nightingale hospitals, why is Britain now facing another partial lockdown?Quote:
Originally Posted by dbgtz
The *only* reason for a lockdown was to prepare the NHS. A lockdown does not stop a virus - this virus is going to work its way through the population.
It's not about the chances you're taking for yourself. Do you actually know ANYTHING about this subject?Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Have you even listened to Lord Sumption on this? Those at risk - the elderly and with chronic conditions - ought to have the choice what risk they are personally willing to take. It is immoral and sinister to halt people's lives and ruin their businesses in some absurd attempt to stop a (for 99% non-deadly) virus THAT IS HERE.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingJesus
The only question is its progression: does it work its way through the population at a slow or a fast pace? There is no "stopping it".
For gods sake why can people not see the logic on this one?
You genuinely think that wearing a mask is a bigger imposition than someone not being able to go outside because people like you make it too dangerous for them... wow. I'm not talking about lockdowns and business closures, but the simple act of covering your face to help protect the vulnerable which is not a big deal. What you're saying amounts to (albeit obviously exaggerated, because you only seem to be able to deal in extremes) "I should be able to spray bullets around the neighbourhood if I want to, and then it's up to other people if they want to walk in front of me or not". There's just absolutely no humanity OR logic.
because I read what is said and keep up with progress of the trials? just at a glance, other strains likely havent had a vaccine because other strains haven't been as big of an issue i.e. no funding. also a bit pointless comparing it to HIV. with a quick Google you can see the difficulties with that virus which is unlikely to be the same as with this. do you actually look up your own statements before saying them?Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
cool and i can decide you are needlessly selfish since the point of a face cover is to stop the wearer spreading itQuote:
What I decide to wear and what chances I take are a matter for me, and not an overzealous state.
hold that thought for jan/feb pal, but your sentiments of not giving a shit were still presentQuote:
The lockdown recession is an actual real recession, not an imaginary one like the one you thought we'd have if we left the EU.
to stop it overwhelming healthcare still and protect people... btw a lockdown stopped it in many countries just sayingQuote:
Now that the burden is lifted and hospitals have remained empty - including Nightingale hospitals, why is Britain now facing another partial lockdown?
The *only* reason for a lockdown was to prepare the NHS. A lockdown does not stop a virus - this virus is going to work its way through the population.
you act as if it's like it was in March and that you're being oppressed, get real. i could possibly understand the sentiment if it was back to the "only leave your house once a day" blah blah, but it isn't. though the way these measures have been handled has been poor at best, but that's what you get when you vote these clowns in
Opposition from scientists also growing now with thousands signing the Great Barrington Declaration: https://gbdeclaration.org/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp05TMZo7to
I'm not saying that the imposition of a face mask is just an affront to liberty, but that the mask policy is waste of time. We have seen the mask policy tested in extremis in Spain where it is compulsory to wear one even if you are walking alone in a field - and the virus is running rampant in Spain. In addition, the mask policy does not extend to restaurants, bars and gyms. Stood in a square in Seville last night, I watched a young guy wearing a mask cross a less densely crowded centre of the square, approached his friendship group of 15 sitting together, and take off his mask to drink. A completely nonsensical policy that is incoherent. I also had to wear a mask entering a bar, but the moment I had a drink I did not need to wear a mask.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingJesus
If those at risk feel masks do protect, they themselves are free to wear a mask.
You have no idea when or if a vaccine will be made.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbgtz
I myself would refuse a vaccine until at least a couple of years or even until I am older and at increased risk to be certain it has no negative effects.
If masks stop the spread of infection then why is the virus running rampant in Spain which has had a compulsory mask policy since March?Quote:
Originally Posted by dbgtz
Answer: Masks do not stop the spread of this virus and short of locking the population indefinitely in their homes until a vaccine nothing will stop this virus spreading.
I supported the lockdown to prepare the NHS.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbgtz
The logic of your argument will lead to this, hence why the government are now heading in that same direction again. Until someone in power wakes up and accepts that this virus is going to work its way through the population, then we will continue to have a rise in infections as soon as freedoms are handed back to the population.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbgtz