Conservatives remain divided over EU

[LuketheDuke]

If they build on Stanley Park (is that what its called?) thats because Liverpools local council has allowed it go foward alongside various building regulations, if you have a problem with it raise the case to your local MEP and get a ruling on it as applied to whatever the EU's charter on that sort of thing is. Or do it via normal MP's.

Also slow down on the insults mate, no need to call me arrogant for fowarding my opinion, after all this government have been voted in democratically so they dont need any assent for any issue from any person. It may suck but unfortunately it aint constitutional.

The fact that so few people seem to care about it and it takes a recession to spark a small amount of protest against it just shows that people dont mind it/ think its a good idea. I suggest you read what the Lisbon Treaty entails and perhaps post back marking which policies you object too as it leans towards the centre right with a lot of proposals. eg Opening up the market to more free trading without secular taxing in certain countries making stuff cheaper for all.

Cheap San Miguel!!!!

[-:Undertaker:-]

If they build on Stanley Park (is that what its called?) thats because Liverpools local council has allowed it go foward alongside various building regulations, if you have a problem with it raise the case to your local MEP and get a ruling on it as applied to whatever the EU's charter on that sort of thing is. Or do it via normal MP's.

Also slow down on the insults mate, no need to call me arrogant for fowarding my opinion, after all this government have been voted in democratically so they dont need any assent for any issue from any person. It may suck but unfortunately it aint constitutional.

The fact that so few people seem to care about it and it takes a recession to spark a small amount of protest against it just shows that people dont mind it/ think its a good idea. I suggest you read what the Lisbon Treaty entails and perhaps post back marking which policies you object too as it leans towards the centre right with a lot of proposals. eg Opening up the market to more free trading without secular taxing in certain countries making stuff cheaper for all.

Cheap San Miguel!!!!

In essence then, they have no enviromental power as they cannot save Stanley Park, so as I was saying all along, they are a waste of money. If the EU are so dedicated to saving the enviroment, why are they not lobbying against Liverpool City Council to stop the destruction of a historic park?

I didn't call you arrogant, I stated anyone who doesn't believe in the British people or people of Europe having a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty are arrogant, if you fit that description I have given, then yes, you are arrogant.

People do care about it, if people dont care about it/agree with the EU then surely you would support having a referendum across Europe on whether or not each invididual country wants to be in the European Union?

The Lisbon Treaty both by critics and supporters has been compared to the former Consitution which incidently was turned down by three out of three countrys, to put that in more simple terms, 100% of the countrys asked said no.

I do not want to have over 75% of our laws made in Brussels by unelected officals, I do not want a European President, I do not want the United Kingdom to be told what to do by the European Union, I do not want the United Kingdom to have its agriculture/fishing/courts/regulations/laws & more dominated and made in Europe, I do not want the United Kingdom to keep paying over £40 million a day into the European Union when our country itself has run up massive debts and finally I do not want to be ruled by people we did not even elect to rule us.

Perhaps one day I should read the treaty fully, or maybe the former Europe Minister Caroline Flint (Labour) should of, seeing as she thought the British people were not informed enough to make an educated decision - despite not reading it herself.

[LuketheDuke]

Many football stadia are built in places where an opportunity for commerce is apparant. Not sure where the environment comes into that as by that logic should we be building on anywhere? The EU arent a pressure group so why would they "lobby" against it?

The government lied to us about the referendum yes but you miss the point that either way theres no democratic entitlement to one. And may I ask which countries rejected it? I looked it up and Ive only seen the Irish have turned it down.

At the end of the day I think you like your British Identity and I have no problem with that, just you have to realise the financial and diplomatic benefits the EU gives us is the reason why we're part of it. If it was just a money hole no-one would be a part of it. Also you do elect this countries representatives to EU, perhaps you should blame British people for not caring about it with such a low turnout. Imagine how few would bother with a referendum if not even 40% turn out for the body who determine it.

I think more pressing matters exist in the World at the moment than the EU, I'm distressed about the well being of people in Both Iran and Somalia. Its puts such minor squabbles into perspective when we see bare human rights being neglected.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Then if they are not defending that green space what is the point in them and their enviromental programs, you have just dismantled your own arguement. We do not need the EU to tell us what to do/how to do things, not needed and not wanted.

The French, Dutch and Irish rejected the reforms the EU attempted/is still attempting to push through.

You haven't answered my questions on whether or not you should think we should have a referendum, so do you think we should have a referendum or not?

Diplomatic benefits? - we have had embassies over the world for decades, being the first modern world power. Why do we need a foreign body to work diplomacy for us when the rest of the world is capable of doing it itself?

Economic benefits? - paying £40 million into the EU a day and getting around one third of that back is a benefit?, I have no idea how you work that one out and neither would anybody else who could count to three.

That is avoiding the issue, I am talking about the issue of the European Union and not Iran/Somalia. There are more pressing issues in the world today rather than the EU, however I am a British citzen and live in the United Kingdom and not Iran or Somalia. Therefore if I am quite honest, I would rather we sort out country out before we start pledging millions/billions to those countrys who the majority of people do not give a toss about - to be frank.

This European superstate dream needs to be put to rest once and for all, lets give the people of Europe a say and I could gurantee the European Union would cease to exist overnight if the political elite let us have our say.

[LuketheDuke]

If we went out of the EU most of our trading roots would be severed and no one in Europe would want to trade with Britain due as it would be easier to trade with countries who allow broad based free markets which help generate domestic wealth (ie countries in the EU) Take that away and youd have Britain bumping taxes on everything as we'd have to encourage our own markets and price lesser quantity goods at higher prices as the demand of a small nation to what we use is way out of proportion. Think that works out ok...

Diplomacy means a greater understanding and relationship with our european neighbours, something which can only be beneficial. I dont want to be a British zenophobe, Id rather be a British European.

And I said I was more concerned with other world affairs, you dont have to be. If there I got the question of Europe Id vote for it as its worked fine for almost 40 years now tyvm. ATM when you compare Britain to Iran I think Id rather know where Id be, arguing over Britain in the EU instead of arguing why a man who has suggestably rigged an election getting into power.

Then again Ive studied the EU to death so other stuff obviously looks more interesting :eusa_danc

[-:Undertaker:-]

If we went out of the EU most of our trading roots would be severed and no one in Europe would want to trade with Britain due as it would be easier to trade with countries who allow broad based free markets which help generate domestic wealth (ie countries in the EU) Take that away and youd have Britain bumping taxes on everything as we'd have to encourage our own markets and price lesser quantity goods at higher prices as the demand of a small nation to what we use is way out of proportion. Think that works out ok...

Diplomacy means a greater understanding and relationship with our european neighbours, something which can only be beneficial. I dont want to be a British zenophobe, Id rather be a British European.

And I said I was more concerned with other world affairs, you dont have to be. If there I got the question of Europe Id vote for it as its worked fine for almost 40 years now tyvm. ATM when you compare Britain to Iran I think Id rather know where Id be, arguing over Britain in the EU instead of arguing why a man who has suggestably rigged an election getting into power.

Then again Ive studied the EU to death so other stuff obviously looks more interesting :eusa_danc

Hang on, what about the rest of the world and Norway who aren't members of the European Union? - their economies don't seem to have collapsed due to not being a part of the European Union. If most of our trade is with Europe, then Europe seems to need us - therefore they would not dare refuse to trade with us as they would need us just as much as we need them.

Excuse me, we do not need the European Union to have a relationship with our European neighbours, just as we didn't have the EU for hundreds of years. Basically what you mean when you say that, is that there won't be any need for diplomacy in the future because we will not be seperate sovereign states, we will be a superstate - which is the EUs' main aim.

How has it worked out fine when its finances haven't been checked for years and billions have gone missing from its books, how has it worked when we are in debt as a country yet are still losing by being in the EU, how has it worked when over 75% of our laws are made in the EU, how has it worked when our farming and agriculture have been harmed by the EU regulations it has placed, how has it worked when business has suffered as a result of its over-regulation in almost every area? -it has not worked, that is why.

You still haven't answered my most basic question; do you or do you not think we, the British people and people of Europe should have a referendum on whether or not we want the Lisbon Treaty or the European Union itself?

[LuketheDuke]

I wouldnt mind if we did as Id vote for the EU, if we didnt I wouldnt mind unless the system starts to become unviable. Dont forget Britain voted to be in the EU during the 70's so technically we already voted for it.

And in the midst of a financial crisis withdrawing from the EU would mean paying import tax for goods from European nations and the tax of exporting goods from this country to other, European ones. Put that alongside 3 million British jobs that are involved with our EU membership. (The Swiss are lumbered with all these taxes!)

Stepping out of the EU would decrease a market for our companies to sell too and this could risk further British jobs. Simple economics make the EU a seem a good proposition in my mind.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I wouldnt mind if we did as Id vote for the EU, if we didnt I wouldnt mind unless the system starts to become unviable. Dont forget Britain voted to be in the EU during the 70's so technically we already voted for it.

And in the midst of a financial crisis withdrawing from the EU would mean paying import tax for goods from European nations and the tax of exporting goods from this country to other, European ones. Put that alongside 3 million British jobs that are involved with our EU membership. (The Swiss are lumbered with all these taxes!)

Stepping out of the EU would decrease a market for our companies to sell too and this could risk further British jobs. Simple economics make the EU a seem a good proposition in my mind.

We voted in the 1970's for something that is totally different to the European Union today, back then the EU was something totally different and had nowhere near as many powers/regulations as it does today.

The question still stands, do you think we should have a referendum or not?

The money saved from not being in the European Union would outweigh the 'benefits', those taxes from Europe could be lowered with co-operation with those countrys/the union itself. We already have some of the highest taxes in Europe, so much for the EU helping us, the normal people. The jobs that depend on the EU? - mainly whitehall jobs, the jobs which contribute nothing. We would not suddenly have three million unemployed if we left the Union, if those jobs are sustainable then they would survive, hence why Margaret Thatcher replaced Labours' state solution with a private solution.

The European Union costs agriculture, fishing and business a lot of money as they are the ones who have to implement everything the EU demands, thus outweighing any potential benefit there may of been in the first place.

It would not decrease the market, we could and still can trade with over one hundred other nations which are on this planet, and as you said before, if we need the European Union so much in economic terms then that would mean the European Union needs us just as much and I can tell you now, they would have no choice but to continue trading with us.

Simple economics show that giving billions to the EU and recieving around one third of that back isn't good economies, its called daylight theft.

[LuketheDuke]

Yes lets have a referendum.

Yes 3 million jobs would be lost, people who work in the European sector rely on exactly that.

Yes taxes in this country would spiral even higher if we left the EU as we'd be paying bumper taxes, you'd pay more for us to be a seperate state.

Yes British business would suffer as it wouldnt be able to maximise profits. That effects currency strength, jobs etc.

Yes lets stop arguing as this is going nowhere, I got a sneaky exam tomorrow!

[-:Undertaker:-]

You just ignored everything that has been said, that is why it is going nowhere.