Ireland 'Votes Yes' In EU Treaty Referendum

[Jordy]

Central EU cannot order a state to ratify a treaty via referendum as it's up to the national governments to decide how to ratify treaties as each state has different legal/government systems.
2/3 voted in favor of the Lisbon Treaty. Remember, this was a referendum on the LISBON TREATY and not THE EU. Just because someone doesn't agree with the lisbon treaty, doesn't mean they are anti-eu. In effect, if you read the treaty, or even the outline, it gives the directly elected parliament more power and say in the budget and other key areas and sets out a way to leave the EU. You seem to have very little knowledge of the contents of the treaty of lisbon and see it as a vote for or against the EU.

Our government and every other EU government is directly elected by the people in that particular country. They represent the people. The electorate vote in those to evaluate and vote on bills, treaties, etc. That's how it works. The decision to not give a referendum on the LISBON TREATY, which ISN'T the same as the EU CONSTITUTION, though similar, but there are differences, was democratic.

When the tories get voted in next year, that will be democracy, however when the Irish vote YES on treaty of lisbon, because it isn't right in your view that an electorate should have to vote twice, after being offered legally binding guarantees on sensitive issues, it's undemocratic. I don't understand your hypocrisy.

It's a good day for the EU and Ireland. The far-right Czechs and the Poles will probably hold up the ratification until Cameron comes in anyway. If the Czechs ratify it, they will probably have to get out of the dodgy alliance they have with Cameron.

And I truely don't think the whole of Europe are anti-EU.

On this rare occasion I have to agree with pretty much everything in your post. I think we deserve a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty (And also the EU) but that's our governments fault not the European Union's. It also shows that some people do want the EU it seems, contrary to the fact that "no one" wants the EU.

I am disappointed by the outcome never-the-less although I do think it's all fair. Not sure what the chances of the Czech's and Polish holding out are though.

[-:Undertaker:-]

If it is not the European Unions' fault and the governments' of Europes fault, then why is the European Union A) not asking governments to hold referendums & B) making the Republic of Ireland vote twice.

[Jordy]

If it is not the European Unions' fault and the governments' of Europes fault, then why is the European Union A) not asking governments to hold referendums & B) making the Republic of Ireland vote twice.

I'm led to believe the Irish got the guarantees they wanted. This was what the majority of Irish wanted and this is what they got, hence why the majority of them voted to ratify the treaty. The statistics speak for themselves.

Your government represents you on the international stage, hence why they choose to ratify the treaty or not. They choose what they believe is best for the country. Seeing as Labour won the last election then the majority of the population voted for them to represent us. They did indeed promise us a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and we didn't get one, that's the Labour Government's fault though, not the EU's.

You carry on about it being a dictatorship but these are all good examples of democracy.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I'm led to believe the Irish got the guarantees they wanted. This was what the majority of Irish wanted and this is what they got, hence why the majority of them voted to ratify the treaty. The statistics speak for themselves.

Your government represents you on the international stage, hence why they choose to ratify the treaty or not. They choose what they believe is best for the country. Seeing as Labour won the last election then the majority of the population voted for them to represent us. They did indeed promise us a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and we didn't get one, that's the Labour Government's fault though, not the EU's.

You carry on about it being a dictatorship but these are all good examples of democracy.

Then why is the European Union about to install a President who will be unelected, and more to the point why is the European Union not asking governments' of Europe to hold referendums on the Lisbon Treaty?.

[Jordy]

Then why is the European Union about to install a President who will be unelected, and more to the point why is the European Union not asking governments' of Europe to hold referendums on the Lisbon Treaty?.

I explained my views to you last night about the president more specifically and why I don't think the person in the position is a "dictator". Perhaps the European Union should ask governments, although I can imagine certain people moaning at the thought of the European Union forcing governments to do things.

Our democratically elected government represents us at the end of the day. And the argument that the EU isn't asking us because they'll lose doesn't apply anymore, seeing as once the Irish got the guarantees they want, they voted yes.

[alexxxxx]

How is it a good day for Europe and the United Kingdom when the people of Europe are being forced to accept a treaty they do not want, a union they do not want, a presidential post they do not want.

Well the democratic process in that they have elected their governments which are part of the EU have proved that they DO want it.

IF the European Union was democratic, it would urge governments to hold referendums on the treaty, in a fair and democratic way but it refuses to. - does it? - NO.

Referenda are not fair as the electorate can be influenced by misinformation or wish to punish the government for an unrelated issue. Not everyone has the time or capacity to read and understand the whole thing. An MP's job would be to do so.

The Lisbon Treaty is a re-write of the EU Consitition, which was turned down by the French, Dutch and Irish. The Lisbon Treaty was turned down by the Irish the first time. Therefore if you can do simple maths, that makes; NO at 4 and YES at 3. I have said before, the Irish have chosen their path as stupid as I think it is, now its time for the rest of Europe to let their people choose their own path aswell, do you or do you not agree?

The treaty isn't exactly the same as the constitution. It includes alot of the same but isn't 100% the same. The people of europe are actually represented in their own governments more-so than they are here. They picked their path by picking their government. It isn't feasible to have a referendum on every law change.

If i'm quite honest I couldn't give a toss whether or not Spain, Luxembourg or Ireland say yes. I want the referendum that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown promised in the 2005 manifesto and all of the United Kingdom wants it now.

A referendum on a constitution that won't go into force?

The Irish have been fooled into believing the European Unino created the Celtic Tiger economy, the Celtic Tiger was built on debt and credit and collapsed as it eventually did.

Which shows the ineffectiveness of referenda. If people can be influenced one way on misinformation why can't it be possible that they can be influenced the other way? This is what I've been telling you about them for all this time and you've proved my point.

The whole of Europe isn't anti-EU, Spain benefits greatly from British money going there. The United Kingdom is anti-EU, therefore why the hell are we in it?

Then why did you say that if we gave a refendum to the whole of the EU about the continuation of the union it'd cease to exist overnight? There is no indication that the british don't want to be in it either. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean it's true.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I explained my views to you last night about the president more specifically and why I don't think the person in the position is a "dictator". Perhaps the European Union should ask governments, although I can imagine certain people moaning at the thought of the European Union forcing governments to do things.

Our democratically elected government represents us at the end of the day. And the argument that the EU isn't asking us because they'll lose doesn't apply anymore, seeing as once the Irish got the guarantees they want, they voted yes.

Josef Stalin was elected by the Communist Party as the basic President of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics - same thing, just different names.

The European Union is not asking us because it will lose, I have said before the Republic of Ireland have made their decision but the rest of Europe has not, and I am not Irish, I am British so therefore I want my nation to make their own decision for themselves, not Gordon Brown, Brian Cowell or the Irish people.

Well the democratic process in that they have elected their governments which are part of the EU have proved that they DO want it.

Referenda are not fair as the electorate can be influenced by misinformation or wish to punish the government for an unrelated issue. Not everyone has the time or capacity to read and understand the whole thing. An MP's job would be to do so.

The treaty isn't exactly the same as the constitution. It includes alot of the same but isn't 100% the same. The people of europe are actually represented in their own governments more-so than they are here. They picked their path by picking their government. It isn't feasible to have a referendum on every law change.

A referendum on a constitution that won't go into force?

Which shows the ineffectiveness of referenda. If people can be influenced one way on misinformation why can't it be possible that they can be influenced the other way? This is what I've been telling you about them for all this time and you've proved my point.

Then why did you say that if we gave a refendum to the whole of the EU about the continuation of the union it'd cease to exist overnight? There is no indication that the british don't want to be in it either. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean it's true.

You have just proven me right, so arrogant are you to say that the electorate (the public) would be misinformed in a referendum, you have just stamped on the graves of those who died to protect freedom of Europe, Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin also thought the people of Europe couldn't make their own decisions, hence why they never held elections. On the issue of the Lisbon Treaty and the Consitution, both EU sceptics and EU supporters, along with European ministers have all said on record that the Treaty is the Consitution just renamed.

I guess with your verdict then, the elections of 2005, 2001 all the way through history are not viable, because in your words they can be 'influenced'. If you still dont' accept referendums and their results, then you surely do not accept this result either then do you. As seeing you are so eager to ignore referendums, we'll move onto elections shall we.. in the European Parliamentary Elections 2009 anti-EU parties across Europe and especially in the United Kingdom all made major gains.

The British do not want to be in it, that is why we are not being given a referendum. You act as if i'm stupid and the British people are stupid; do you really think if the government knew it would win a referendum on the EU it would go through all this to avoid one?

[Jordy]

Josef Stalin was elected by the Communist Party as the basic President of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics - same thing, just different names.

The British do not want to be in it, that is why we are not being given a referendum. You act as if i'm stupid and the British people are stupid; do you really think if the government knew it would win a referendum on the EU it would go through all this to avoid one?

The difference is though, no one voted the Communist Party into power, it forced it's self into power. That however has never happened in the UK in recent history.

I agree we are entitled to the referendum we were promised and maybe the British people don't want to be in the EU (Hopefully), however there's nothing much to base that on.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The difference is though, no one voted the Communist Party into power, it forced it's self into power. That however has never happened in the UK in recent history.

I agree we are entitled to the referendum we were promised and maybe the British people don't want to be in the EU (Hopefully), however there's nothing much to base that on.

Nobody voted the European Union into power, and just like the Communist Party it also forced itself into power.

[alexxxxx]

You have just proven me right, so arrogant are you to say that the electorate (the public) would be misinformed in a referendum, you have just stamped on the graves of those who died to protect freedom of Europe, Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin also thought the people of Europe couldn't make their own decisions, hence why they never held elections. On the issue of the Lisbon Treaty and the Consitution, both EU sceptics and EU supporters, along with European ministers have all said on record that the Treaty is the Consitution just renamed.

pull out the 'stamp on the graves' crap ahaa. referenda don't work and you know it. europe is free. free from fascism, free from genocide, free market, free to make our own decisions. FREE.

I guess with your verdict then, the elections of 2005, 2001 all the way through history are not viable, because in your words they can be 'influenced'. If you still dont' accept referendums and their results, then you surely do not accept this result either then do you. As seeing you are so eager to ignore referendums, we'll move onto elections shall we.. in the European Parliamentary Elections 2009 anti-EU parties across Europe and especially in the United Kingdom all made major gains.

Referenda don't work. I accept the first result and i accept the second one. The second one is different because Ireland's circumstances changed, plus they have new guarantees. I don't however doubt that they are influenced by misinformation, which is why i'm against them. Elections are a different kettle of fish as the elections are representative of the people. You should vote on what the parties say they'll do, not what the media say.

The British do not want to be in it, that is why we are not being given a referendum. You act as if i'm stupid and the British people are stupid; do you really think if the government knew it would win a referendum on the EU it would go through all this to avoid one?

I act as if you are stupid because you are. You fail to see what is and what isn't a democracy.