Ireland 'Votes Yes' In EU Treaty Referendum

[alexxxxx]

It is true to say that 75% of laws are made at the EU. However, almost none of these are criminal laws or the way how the educational systems work, to do with the military, health. Most are to do with regulatory processes, which makes sense as we all share a common market or they are directives which have to be passed by individual governments.

The EU is democratic and you really are kidding yourself if you think it isn't. There's a parliament which is directly elected and a commission which is appointed by the elected parliaments. Therefore, it's democratic. The EU isn't an entity in its own right, it's a set of agreements between states.

[-:Undertaker:-]

It is true to say that 75% of laws are made at the EU. However, almost none of these are criminal laws or the way how the educational systems work, to do with the military, health. Most are to do with regulatory processes, which makes sense as we all share a common market or they are directives which have to be passed by individual governments.

The EU is democratic and you really are kidding yourself if you think it isn't. There's a parliament which is directly elected and a commission which is appointed by the elected parliaments. Therefore, it's democratic. The EU isn't an entity in its own right, it's a set of agreements between states.

The laws of the European Union effect everything, from working hours, to business, to taxation, to foreign policy and soon maybe to the military and other areas. We are not kidding ourselves, the European Union was not chosen by the people of this country and the majority of Europe, why do you honestly think most people want a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty? - people like you do not fool them.

The parliament has no power, the commision and the soon-to-be President have all the power, none of who are elected, or elected on a mandate meaning we have unelected people making over 75% of our laws without a mandate, thus they could basically make any law they wished.

The Republic of China (Taiwan) also isn't an offical country, but we all know it has the powers of an offical country.. because something isn't offical doesn't mean its not real. Adolf Hitler never adopted a new treaty for the Third Reich, so technically he was still leader of the Weimar Republic because all he had to do, and did, was impose emergency law suspending the Weimar Constitution - again, proving that because something isn't offical doesnt mean it hasnt got the powers of something offical.

[alexxxxx]

The laws of the European Union effect everything, from working hours, to business, to taxation, to foreign policy and soon maybe to the military and other areas. We are not kidding ourselves, the European Union was not chosen by the people of this country and the majority of Europe, why do you honestly think most people want a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty? - people like you do not fool them.

Working Hours yes, direct taxation, no. 'Soon Maybe' does not mean 'now.' Speculation. You like to speculate. *Yawn* yes this country did decide.

The parliament has no power, the commision and the soon-to-be President have all the power, none of who are elected, or elected on a mandate meaning we have unelected people making over 75% of our laws without a mandate, thus they could basically make any law they wished.

The Parliament does have power, infact it has power to sack the comission, however, as the parliament does contain members of the same political party as those sitting in the commision, this is unlikely, but it does have that power. The Lisbon Treaty increases the power of the parliament.

The Republic of China (Taiwan) also isn't an offical country, but we all know it has the powers of an offical country.. because something isn't offical doesn't mean its not real. Adolf Hitler never adopted a new treaty for the Third Reich, so technically he was still leader of the Weimar Republic because all he had to do, and did, was impose emergency law suspending the Weimar Constitution - again, proving that because something isn't offical doesnt mean it hasnt got the powers of something offical.

These are completely unrelated. Taiwan is a country and is recognised by many states throughout the world. Hitler's Nazi Germany was elected democratically and represented the people. The failures in the Weimar constitution allowed the nazis to seize power when Hitler declared himself the leader of the reichstag and the president, meaning that when he passed the emergency act, he effectively ruled by decree. He then became a dictator, but he was elected in the first place. The president of the EU would be chosen by elected peoples, but has no power by himself, he would be the leading figurehead however. The Lisbon Treaty sets out a way for states to leave the EU, which before, didn't exist.

However, they don't claim themselves to being so because of their unstable relationship with China. The EU isn't a state. Nor will it become one.

This debate is really boring because you throw around the words unelected, undemocratic, EUSSR, speculate and don't accept facts as they are given to you.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Working Hours yes, direct taxation, no. 'Soon Maybe' does not mean 'now.' Speculation. You like to speculate. *Yawn* yes this country did decide.

It is not speculation, hence why the Irish were bribed into taxation being exempt from the Lisbon Treaty. Their red lines will not last long, the Irish government will slowly but surely surrender them, just as our government has over the years and the governments' across Europe did.

You are wrong yet again, we-did-not-vote-for-a-European Union.

The Parliament does have power, infact it has power to sack the comission, however, as the parliament does contain members of the same political party as those sitting in the commision, this is unlikely, but it does have that power. The Lisbon Treaty increases the power of the parliament.

The treaty increases numbers of commissoners is what David Milliband said yesterday on television, why would the European Union really remove its own power which its been building up over the past few decades or so? - for democracy?..oh please, give me a break.

These are completely unrelated. Taiwan is a country and is recognised by many states throughout the world. Hitler's Nazi Germany was elected democratically and represented the people. The failures in the Weimar constitution allowed the nazis to seize power when Hitler declared himself the leader of the reichstag and the president, meaning that when he passed the emergency act, he effectively ruled by decree. He then became a dictator, but he was elected in the first place. The president of the EU would be chosen by elected peoples, but has no power by himself, he would be the leading figurehead however. The Lisbon Treaty sets out a way for states to leave the EU, which before, didn't exist.

You are wrong again, The Republic of China (Taiwan) is not recognised by any country (and the United Nations) which wishes to have formal diplomatic relations with the Peoples Republic of China, any country wishing to have formal relations with the Peoples Republic of China has to accept the 'One-China policy' and the United Kingdom, United States and most nations around the world have accepted this. The example of the ROC is the same as the EU.

Josef Stalin was elected by members of the communist party, because someone is elected does not give them the right to elect someone else on 500+ million peoples' behalf. It isn't hard to leave the European Union, which you dont seem to understand and neither do many of the politicians in the United Kingdom, you tell them you are leaving - its that simple. You tend to mention this clause for pullout a lot, so do you accept that if the Lisbon Treaty is passed and implemented, that every European nation should hold a referendum on European Union membership seeing as it now has a proper pullout clause?

However, they don't claim themselves to being so because of their unstable relationship with China. The EU isn't a state. Nor will it become one.

If the European Union does not desire to become a state, why has it proposed and moved in many areas to grab hold of taxation, foreign policy, defence, monetary issues, internal issues and regulations, agriculture, fishing, and defence. That is statehood. I never said the Republic of China do claim to be an independant state and I do know of their unstable relationship with the Peoples Republic of China, hence why I have said China is the biggest threat to world peace many times over - the point I was making is that neither are offical, but both act as countrys (The EU and ROC).

This debate is really boring because you throw around the words unelected, undemocratic, EUSSR, speculate and don't accept facts as they are given to you.

It is boring you are right, because you refuse to accept that people want a say on the European Union and the Lisbon Treaty, and that the highly likely outcome will be no.

[Bun]

taking us into the EEC is the only thing i rate the tories for. :eusa_danc

[-:Undertaker:-]

taking us into the EEC is the only thing i rate the tories for. :eusa_danc

You have just made my point even easier for people to see and have amplified it, they took us into (although looking back we can all see it was a awful move) the European Economic Community and not the European Union, two totally different things.

+rep

[alexxxxx]

[QUOTE=-:Undertaker:-;6086134]It is not speculation, hence why the Irish were bribed into taxation being exempt from the Lisbon Treaty. Their red lines will not last long, the Irish government will slowly but surely surrender them, just as our government has over the years and the governments' across Europe did.

You are wrong yet again, we-did-not-vote-for-a-European Union.

YOU ARE SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO STUPID. SERIOUSLY. YOU MUST NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT A PARLIAMENT IS, WHO MPs/MEPs ARE ELECTED BY, NOR WHO THEY REPRESENT. EVERY TIME SOMEONE PUT 'X' BY THE NAME OF THEIR MP WHEN THEY VOTED, VOTED FOR THE EU. EVERY TIME. EVERY TIME. THAT'S HOW A DEMOCRACY WORKS. YOU VOTE FOR THE PARTY AND IT'S POLICIES. IF IT'S POLICIES INCLUDE WORKING WITH/IN THE EUROPEAN UNION, THEN YOU HAVE IN FACT VOTED IN FAVOUR FOR BRITAIN REMAINING IN IT. THAT'S HOW IT WORKS. THE SAME ARGUMENT HOLDS FOR WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-FOR-THE-SMOKING-BAN, WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-FOR-WEED-TO-GO-TO-CLASS-B, WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-FOR-THE-HUNTING-BAN, WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-TO-JOIN-THE-UN, WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-FOR-THE-ONE-WAY-EXTRADITION-TREATY-WITH-THE-USA, WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-IN-OUR-REPRESENTATIVE-AT-THE-UN WE DON'T HOLD REFERENDUMS ON MOST/ALL LAWS/TREATIES BECAUSE IT UNDER-MINDS PARLIAMENT AND THE ELECTED DEMOCRACY PROCESS.

The treaty increases numbers of commissoners is what David Milliband said yesterday on television, why would the European Union really remove its own power which its been building up over the past few decades or so? - for democracy?..oh please, give me a break.

Untrue, the number of comissioners has been decided to stick to 1 per member state. It was going to be reduced to 2/3, but this was a major issue brought up by the irish and it was reverted back to 1 each. If the comission unanimously vote in favour of more or less per state, this can change.

You are wrong again, The Republic of China (Taiwan) is not recognised by any country (and the United Nations) which wishes to have formal diplomatic relations with the Peoples Republic of China, any country wishing to have formal relations with the Peoples Republic of China has to accept the 'One-China policy' and the United Kingdom, United States and most nations around the world have accepted this. The example of the ROC is the same as the EU.

Wrong again. The ROC is recognised by some states including the Vatican. We have to state that we accept the 'One-China' policy, however the UK only 'takes note' and has publically said that the future of taiwan needs to be decided between them peacefully.

Josef Stalin was elected by members of the communist party, because someone is elected does not give them the right to elect someone else on 500+ million peoples' behalf. It isn't hard to leave the European Union, which you dont seem to understand and neither do many of the politicians in the United Kingdom, you tell them you are leaving - its that simple. You tend to mention this clause for pullout a lot, so do you accept that if the Lisbon Treaty is passed and implemented, that every European nation should hold a referendum on European Union membership seeing as it now has a proper pullout clause?

However, you are changing the situation here. Not everyone supported the communist party or was a member of it, so therefore did not have a right to vote. Everyone of legal age has the right to vote in national (and therefore also which party is likely to sit in the comission) and in the eu parliament. It isn't as simple as walking out of the EU, new treaties have to be drawn up for trade/labour, those working in EU institutions, projects in the process of being funded by the EU. And as i've said before, no, why should everyone have a referendum? If you want out of the EU, don't vote for an EU nation. Almost every other EU nation has PR which, in theory, makes it even more easy.

If the European Union does not desire to become a state, why has it oposed and moved in many areas to grab hold of taxation, foreign policy, defence, monetary issues, internal issues and regulations, agriculture, fishing, and defence. That is statehood. I never said the Republic of China do claim to be an independant state and I do know of their unstable relationship with the Peoples Republic of China, hence why I have said China is the biggest threat to world peace many times over - the point I was making is that neither are offical, but both act as countrys (The EU and ROC).

Because in order to create a single-market, many elements need to be regulated so firms from all member states have equal rights etc. I never said that you said that ROC declared itself a country. China isn't a threat. It requires us to buy their goods for their wealth.

If the lisbon treaty passes, if 1 000 000 citizens sign a petition they can force the commission to write up a bill.

[-:Undertaker:-]

YOU ARE SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO STUPID. SERIOUSLY. YOU MUST NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT A PARLIAMENT IS, WHO MPs/MEPs ARE ELECTED BY, NOR WHO THEY REPRESENT. EVERY TIME SOMEONE PUT 'X' BY THE NAME OF THEIR MP WHEN THEY VOTED, VOTED FOR THE EU. EVERY TIME. EVERY TIME. THAT'S HOW A DEMOCRACY WORKS. YOU VOTE FOR THE PARTY AND IT'S POLICIES. IF IT'S POLICIES INCLUDE WORKING WITH/IN THE EUROPEAN UNION, THEN YOU HAVE IN FACT VOTED IN FAVOUR FOR BRITAIN REMAINING IN IT. THAT'S HOW IT WORKS. THE SAME ARGUMENT HOLDS FOR WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-FOR-THE-SMOKING-BAN, WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-FOR-WEED-TO-GO-TO-CLASS-B, WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-FOR-THE-HUNTING-BAN, WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-TO-JOIN-THE-UN, WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-FOR-THE-ONE-WAY-EXTRADITION-TREATY-WITH-THE-USA, WE-DID-NOT-VOTE-IN-OUR-REPRESENTATIVE-AT-THE-UN WE DON'T HOLD REFERENDUMS ON MOST/ALL LAWS/TREATIES BECAUSE IT UNDER-MINDS PARLIAMENT AND THE ELECTED DEMOCRACY PROCESS.

Those policies you named, none of them make up 75%+ of our laws. They are irrelevent to the discussion. The Consitituion of the Republic of Ireland itself states that any signifigant power loss has to be put to a referendum, hence why the Lisbon Treaty was put to referendum.

If everyone is so supportive of the EU everytime they put an 'X' in the box next to the partys like you say, then whats stopping you and whats the big problem with holding a referendum on it? - surely you dont think it'll lose.. oh wait! you know it will lose!.

Untrue, the number of comissioners has been decided to stick to 1 per member state. It was going to be reduced to 2/3, but this was a major issue brought up by the irish and it was reverted back to 1 each. If the comission unanimously vote in favour of more or less per state, this can change.

I couldn't care how many there are to be quite frank, none are elected and these are the people who make over 75% of Europes' laws and regulations. They are not elected before you say they are, Josef Stalin was elected by the Communist Party, doesnt mean hes elected.

Wrong again. The ROC is recognised by some states including the Vatican. We have to state that we accept the 'One-China' policy, however the UK only 'takes note' and has publically said that the future of taiwan needs to be decided between them peacefully

The Vatican.. come on what a terrible example. The major world powers accept the One-China policy because they are terrified of the Peoples Republic of China and allow themselves to be blackmailed into accepting it, despite the Republic of China being basically independant for over fifty years. The Republic of China acts as a state but is not offically a state, therefore it is the same as the European Union.

However, you are changing the situation here. Not everyone supported the communist party or was a member of it, so therefore did not have a right to vote. Everyone of legal age has the right to vote in national (and therefore also which party is likely to sit in the comission) and in the eu parliament. It isn't as simple as walking out of the EU, new treaties have to be drawn up for trade/labour, those working in EU institutions, projects in the process of being funded by the EU. And as i've said before, no, why should everyone have a referendum? If you want out of the EU, don't vote for an EU nation. Almost every other EU nation has PR which, in theory, makes it even more easy.

Why should we get a referendum? - because we are the PEOPLE who DESERVE a vote and were PROMISED a vote.

Typical arrogance.

Because in order to create a single-market, many elements need to be regulated so firms from all member states have equal rights etc. I never said that you said that ROC declared itself a country. China isn't a threat. It requires us to buy their goods for their wealth.

If the lisbon treaty passes, if 1 000 000 citizens sign a petition they can force the commission to write up a bill.

The Peoples Republic of China is a threat to world peace, if they do indeed launch an attack on the Republic of China to fully unite China once again, this will cause conflict as Taiwan is heavily guarded by US ships and a democratic country, would not (I hope) be allowed to be taken over by the socialist elite in China. NATO & PLA ships have already clashed before and went to war in Korea if you remember.

How about this, instead of passing the treaty then making silly bills on things, how about the European Union give the people of Europe a referendum on A) Do we want the Lisbon Treaty? and B) Do we want to be in the European Union?.

..but I have said this before, and all you come back with is the same claptrap of how the EU is apparently democratic - well how about doing the democratic thing and accepting people want a say.

You won't though, because you know what would happen if people were given a say.

[alexxxxx]

Those policies you named, none of them make up 75%+ of our laws.

They are laws all the same and in your view, if we are having a referendum on the treaty with the rest of the EU, why shouldn't we have a referendum on these subjects as these equally effect all of our lives. Why is the signing of this treaty any different to the signing of any other bill? They all affect us. Now why won't you tell me why we can't have a referendum on the repeal of the copyright law? pretty much is the same.

you know what i think with a reasoned debate, people will see that the benefits outway the bad points and I think that a referendum would pass if there was no major media or personal interest interference throughout most, if not all, member states, including this one.

plus a do you want to get in and out of the EU isn't a great question. many people may wish to be in the EU but want to change the way in which it works or don't agree in it's current direction. the best way to change it is through changing it through politics or through the inside. we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

referendums are not the answer to this issue. if people in this country don't want the EU they should vote in UKIP so they win seats in the Parliament in both the EU Parliament and UK Parliament. they will then pull us out of it.

[-:Undertaker:-]

you know what i think with a reasoned debate, people will see that the benefits outway the bad points and I think that a referendum would pass if there was no major media or personal interest interference throughout most, if not all, member states, including this one.

plus a do you want to get in and out of the EU isn't a great question. many people may wish to be in the EU but want to change the way in which it works or don't agree in it's current direction. the best way to change it is through changing it through politics or through the inside. we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

We live in a democratic country, thus anybody; the media, the political partys - anyone can say what they want on the European Union. You are basically proposing we enforce a police state because you know that the treaty and the Union itself would be defeated come a referendum, you know it and you hate it.

It is very simple, you have two questioins on the ballot paper, A) Do you want the United Kingdom to adopt the Lisbon Treaty? and B) Do you think on a broader scale, the United Kingdom should withdraw from the European Union? - not a trick question, very simple and people can make their own minds up, just as they do in elections, which path they will vote for.

The best way to change it to do what the people want, thats what democracy was last time I checked.