Ireland 'Votes Yes' In EU Treaty Referendum

[Bun]

i'm not even trolling here but it must suck to be so against something, when deep down you know it's not going to be abolished or riddened of.

[vimcubcil]

uhm,Thanks so much 4 sharing with us,bros :-)

[-:Undertaker:-]

The EEC is part of the EU, you cant have one without the other so I think its a pretty sweet response to when you try and set them apart tyvm.

And no people dont have to read manifesto's etc and I never made the point that everyone should have to. But I do argue that if you want know something about something maybe you should consult the source first. Thats not even a political statement thats just simple criticism which maybe some MP's should try as well.

If referenda were statute maybe we could have them more but the fact is they arent so whats the point in demanding one? What I do know is I can vote on this issue if i so choose too and GE's facilitate democracy making it an outlet where I can truly express a grivience.

Im not arguing at you, I may not support a lot of things you say because they simply arent realistic but you've got to make do with the system your given. Otherwise become a revolutionary and buy a beret.

You have ignored it again, we voted for EEC and not EU, so therefore anybody with common sense would agree, that as we have not voted for the EU we need to do so.

What the point in demanding one? - we were promised, the European Union is unelected, the European Union makes over 75% of our laws, the European Union is not wanted and finally we are a democracy, so yes we should have a referendum on the European Union.

Anybody who opposes the European Union has my support and the support of millions in this country and across Europe, the European Union issue will become a far bigger issue in years to come than it is now, believe me. Europe is on course to clash.

i'm not even trolling here but it must suck to be so against something, when deep down you know it's not going to be abolished or riddened of.

It must suck to be as funny and as witty as you.

[alexxxxx]

The government lies, and it lied over the invasion of Iraq - it is the public who decide who they believe, as we do in real life. A poor excuse form someone who has run out of ideas to dodge the referendum issue, you say specific issues like this, well what you really mean is 'issues that I know are unpopular and would lose in a referendum' - what right have you and other europhiles got to tell the people of Europe, most who had lived since 1944/45 under the Soviet Union including the Czech & Polish Presidents' - show some balls and face the debate for once, instead of crying and whining on about some conspiracy that Rupert Murdoch has indoctrinated the British public into right wing beliefs.

All governments lie yes. But the facts of the lisbon treaty are there in writing for everyone to see and read, but unfortunately, it's several hundred pages long. Some people still believe that invading Iraq was a good idea but many others disagree. The problem with this argument is that the event has already passed and we didn't know how it was going to end up. We already know what will happen when the lisbon treaty comes into force.

Yet another poor example by you, you gave the poor example of the Vatican State recognizing the Republic of China as an offical nation to back up your argument which was just.. ahh disaster.

The Vatican City is a sovereign state. So are the several other nations that recognise it. The USA and UK would probably prefer to recognise both, but as we are more heavily involved with PROC then that's who we're more likely to align with.

Does India have to cut ties with the EU?
Does Iceland have to cut ties with the EU?
Does Burma have to cut ties with the EU?
Does Iran have to cut ties with the EU?
Do the 150+ countrys across the world have to cut ties with the EU just because they are not in it?

Well the EU has cut some ties with Iran, so yes. Myanmar/Burma also. ie But that's for other reasons. We wouldn't have to cut ties with the EU, no, i was just pointing out that giving the choice to British public isn't as simple of YES/NO there are different levels. Being in the EEA requires us to conform to EU laws on regulation and some other laws, but without a say in how they are formed.

You and the European Union build up this imaginary image of the United Kingdom becoming isolationist if it leaves the European Union - it is absolute and utter propaganda. Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, Ukraine and other European nations are not in the European Union and are not isolationist, so no we would not have all those questions you put down on that - you make it up as you go along.

Norway, a member of the EEA, has to conform to rules as i told you above. Iceland also, but iceland is currently having a debate in moving into the EU. Croatia wishes to join + others.

It is a very simple question, should the United Kingdom remain in the European Union? - that does not mean should we server ties with Europe, should we sever economic trading with Europe - it means as it says.

There is EU and EUlite (ie EEA).

Another poor example, i'm afraid Limewire does not make over 75%+ of the United Kingdoms' laws now, does it?.

But it still affects our lives, which is the point. So does the treaty with the US. The EU's regulation generally only affects Businesses and rules on the Common Market and the environment, not criminal law. These laws generally don't affect our lives as criminal law. So why won't you give us a referendum on the speed limit on the motorways?

The people do not vote soley on the European Union, and you know as well as I do that without proportional representation it is very hard for a new party to emerge and gain ground. Although I could say that the European Parliamentary Elections where UKIP beat Labour was the British verdict on the European Union, so can we pull out now that its been confimed in an election and not a referendum, just as you always stress is le-git?.

Yes, UKIP beat Labour, but they didn't beat Labour and the LibDems, both pro-euro parties. So actually no, that argument doesn't hold.

If the European Union is so confident of its popularity, and you are, why are you refusing to give the people of Europe and the United Kingdom a say? - infact I don't want a reply (not that I get one anyway) but I want you to now admit, that if the people of the United Kingdom were given a say on the European Union (along with many other countries) that most countrys would leave, especially the United Kingdom? - am I right(?) yes or no.

Because the european union HAS The support it needs? It would cost millions and millions of taxpayers money on a result that would probably end up as yes.


viva europa.

[-:Undertaker:-]

All governments lie yes. But the facts of the lisbon treaty are there in writing for everyone to see and read, but unfortunately, it's several hundred pages long. Some people still believe that invading Iraq was a good idea but many others disagree. The problem with this argument is that the event has already passed and we didn't know how it was going to end up. We already know what will happen when the lisbon treaty comes into force.


The Vatican City is a sovereign state. So are the several other nations that recognise it. The USA and UK would probably prefer to recognise both, but as we are more heavily involved with PROC then that's who we're more likely to align with.

Well the EU has cut some ties with Iran, so yes. Myanmar/Burma also. ie But that's for other reasons. We wouldn't have to cut ties with the EU, no, i was just pointing out that giving the choice to British public isn't as simple of YES/NO there are different levels. Being in the EEA requires us to conform to EU laws on regulation and some other laws, but without a say in how they are formed.

Norway, a member of the EEA, has to conform to rules as i told you above. Iceland also, but iceland is currently having a debate in moving into the EU. Croatia wishes to join + others.

There is EU and EUlite (ie EEA).


But it still affects our lives, which is the point. So does the treaty with the US. The EU's regulation generally only affects Businesses and rules on the Common Market and the environment, not criminal law. These laws generally don't affect our lives as criminal law. So why won't you give us a referendum on the speed limit on the motorways?


Yes, UKIP beat Labour, but they didn't beat Labour and the LibDems, both pro-euro parties. So actually no, that argument doesn't hold.

Because the european union HAS The support it needs? It would cost millions and millions of taxpayers money on a result that would probably end up as yes.

The Vatican State was a poor example, the states that accept the Republic of China rather than the Peoples Republic of China are non-states, aka states that do not matter and have no influence or power. The argument I gave of the Republic of China, which backed up the argument of because something isn't offical doesn't mean it cant act as a country or state still holds, and you haven't come up with a decent reply except saying that the Vatican recognises the Republic of China - so would you now like to think of another excuse (one which holds water) to that argument?.

There are not different levels, the question of cutting ties with the European Union itself and European countrys would not even be on a proposed ballot, so grow up and stop thinking up stupid scenarios that just would never ever happen or are possible/realistic.

I am talking about the European Union, the union which dominates political, social and economic policy here. Anything else also under the umbrealla of Europe that also operates as that would also be up for referendum.

The motorways and Limewire do not make over 75% of our laws, the laws in this country - that is why I wouldn't give a referendum on motorways or Limewire, not to mention the fact they have nothing to do with the issue and its just you trying to worm your way out. A union that makes over 75% of our laws is not the same as Limewire/motorway speed limit, so try harder next time to think of something that actually makes sense and stands up, rather than something a 5-year old child would think up.

UKIP + Conservative + BNP votes = more than Liberal Democrats and Labour combined, so yes that argument does stand up. You yourself said referendums don't work (maybe because you know your cause would be beaten) but in the European elections it was proven, by the success of UKIP that people do not want European Union.

Because the european union HAS The support it needs? It would cost millions and millions of taxpayers money on a result that would probably end up as yes.

Do not avoid the issue of a referendum based on the cost, when we give billions a year to the European Union.

You refuse to give us a referendum despite saying the European Union has the support of the British public, do you know what someone who is scared of being beaten is called? - a coward.

[alexxxxx]

The Vatican State was a poor example, the states that accept the Republic of China rather than the Peoples Republic of China are non-states, aka states that do not matter and have no influence or power. The argument I gave of the Republic of China, which backed up the argument of because something isn't offical doesn't mean it cant act as a country or state still holds, and you haven't come up with a decent reply except saying that the Vatican recognises the Republic of China - so would you now like to think of another excuse (one which holds water) to that argument?.

Scotland acts as a country in many areas but isn't sovereign? I don't know what i'm trying to argue against you. The EU isn't a state, nor will it be.

There are not different levels, the question of cutting ties with the European Union itself and European countrys would not even be on a proposed ballot, so grow up and stop thinking up stupid scenarios that just would never ever happen or are possible/realistic.

Then you know nothing about the EU and EEA. Why not? I thought this was a democracy where we have to check every possibility. :rolleyes:

I am talking about the European Union, the union which dominates political, social and economic policy here. Anything else also under the umbrealla of Europe that also operates as that would also be up for referendum.

Well the EU ISN'T the EEA.

The motorways and Limewire do not make over 75% of our laws, the laws in this country - that is why I wouldn't give a referendum on motorways or Limewire, not to mention the fact they have nothing to do with the issue and its just you trying to worm your way out. A union that makes over 75% of our laws is not the same as Limewire/motorway speed limit, so try harder next time to think of something that actually makes sense and stands up, rather than something a 5-year old child would think up.

But they still affect our lives. Why won't you give us a referendum on the

UKIP + Conservative + BNP votes = more than Liberal Democrats and Labour combined, so yes that argument does stand up. You yourself said referendums don't work (maybe because you know your cause would be beaten) but in the European elections it was proven, by the success of UKIP that people do not want European Union.

The Conservatives are PRO-EU. So I don't see your argument. =\

Do not avoid the issue of a referendum based on the cost, when we give billions a year to the European Union.

You refuse to give us a referendum despite saying the European Union has the support of the British public, do you know what someone who is scared of being beaten is called? - a coward.

I AM NOT REFUSING YOU ANYTHING! AHAHA. WHO AM I? A 17 YEAR OLD IN NOTTINGHAM. NOT AFFILIATED WITH ANY POLITICAL PARTY. WHAT POWER DO I HAVE - NOTHING. I KNOW FROM YOUR POSTS YOU ARE EVEN YOUNGER. What GCSEs did you get? Which A-Levels are you doing? I'd love to know so I can guage what kind of a person you are. Don't you dare call me a coward. I fight with reason and logic.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Scotland acts as a country in many areas but isn't sovereign? I don't know what i'm trying to argue against you. The EU isn't a state, nor will it be.

That only backs up my point, something doesn't have to be offical to be a state in its own right; Republic of China (Taiwan), Scotland & the European Union.

Then you know nothing about the EU and EEA. Why not? I thought this was a democracy where we have to check every possibility. :rolleyes:

I don't care what you want to call it, if we seperated all the European Union into different areas then of course it can span from E(insert two letters here) - we want to leave the European Union, which is very simple from what you are trying to make out. That means when somebody asks 'is the United Kingdom in the European Union' the answer would be no - simple, get it?.

Well the EU ISN'T the EEA.

..then what is your point? - I said leave the European Union.

But they still affect our lives.Why won't you give us a referendum on the

They do not affect our lives to the extent of the European Union, which makes over 75% of our laws, are you refusing to see this or are you actually blind to this fact?

The Conservatives are PRO-EU. So I don't see your argument. =\

The Conservatives are not pro-European Union, they are split and policy changes all the time, if they were pro-EU they would support the European Union and the Treaty of Lisbon, along with installing Tony Blair as European President.

UKIP and the Conservatives both beat Labour and the Liberal Democrats, which I think clearly shows even to the most stupid person, that the European Union is not wanted by the British public.

I AM NOT REFUSING YOU ANYTHING! AHAHA. WHO AM I? A 17 YEAR OLD IN NOTTINGHAM. NOT AFFILIATED WITH ANY POLITICAL PARTY. WHAT POWER DO I HAVE - NOTHING. I KNOW FROM YOUR POSTS YOU ARE EVEN YOUNGER. What GCSEs did you get? Which A-Levels are you doing? I'd love to know so I can guage what kind of a person you are. Don't you dare call me a coward. I fight with reason and logic.

It does make me laugh when people say 'I have a A-level in such and such therefore I know more than you and you are wrong' - a sign that somebody has totally lost the plot, cracked and has ran out of useful or intelligent things to say.

Oh come on, of course you're a coward - you tell me that if a referendum on European Union and the Lisbon Treaty took place it would pass and therefore you are so sure it would pass, holding a referendum on it would be pointless - prove it; why do you and the left continue the argument to refuse the people of this country a say on something which people want a say on, and if its so popular it would only deepen your cause and would make me look like the idiot - but you won't, because you are terrified of the European Union being voted on because people do not want it.

..refusing to take the case to the public is cowardice, only those who are afraid of losing have something to lose if a referendum was held.

[alexxxxx]

That only backs up my point, something doesn't have to be offical to be a state in its own right; Republic of China (Taiwan), Scotland & the European Union.

Nu-uh. Scotland acts like a country in many ways, it makes alot of its own laws, it has a different education system, yet it isn't a sovereign state. The European Union makes some laws, has common rules, yet isn't a sovereign state. It's the same thing.

I don't care what you want to call it, if we seperated all the European Union into different areas then of course it can span from E(insert two letters here) - we want to leave the European Union, which is very simple from what you are trying to make out. That means when somebody asks 'is the United Kingdom in the European Union' the answer would be no - simple, get it?.

The EEC no longer exists. It evolved into the EC in the European Union (as one of the three sections). The EEA is EUlite, which is what Norway and Iceland have where they have to accept EU Law (without being able to have a say in it), no EU funding but also there is free movement of people. We still have to pay some money into the EEA/EU but not as much as if we're in the EU.

..then what is your point? - I said leave the European Union.

The EEA isn't the EU, but it still has to abide by EU legislation.

They do not affect our lives to the extent of the European Union, which makes over 75% of our laws, are you refusing to see this or are you actually blind to this fact?

Most EU laws do not affect people at ground level, but I am pointing out that if we starting throwing around referendums, which are bad for democracy if you ask me, as it under-minds parliament, why should we have referendums on some issues but not others, as some people view some laws as affecting their lives more-so than others.

The Conservatives are not pro-European Union, they are split and policy changes all the time, if they were pro-EU they would support the European Union and the Treaty of Lisbon, along with installing Tony Blair as European President.

I can't believe you just said that the tories aren't pro-eu. I just can't believe you just said that. THEY SIGNED THE MAASTRICHT TREATY WHICH FORMED THE EU AS IT IS TODAY! They are split, yes, that's why Cameron is trying to keep talk down on the Lisbon Treaty because there is LARGE support of it. Alot of Tories, including Ken Clarke, were against a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Plus, being against the Lisbon Treaty, is not being against the EU. We are all citizens of EU states and therefore we are allowed to dislike the way our union is deviating, just like a UK national is allowed to dislike how labour steered our union.

UKIP and the Conservatives both beat Labour and the Liberal Democrats, which I think clearly shows even to the most stupid person, that the European Union is not wanted by the British public.

As above.

It does make me laugh when people say 'I have a A-level in such and such therefore I know more than you and you are wrong' - a sign that somebody has totally lost the plot, cracked and has ran out of useful or intelligent things to say.

No, I'm sorry, you're wrong. People who have qualifications in subjects that teach you how certain decisions are made (ie Economics), can understand why certain decisions are better than others yet can be unpopular.

Oh come on, of course you're a coward - you tell me that if a referendum on European Union and the Lisbon Treaty took place it would pass and therefore you are so sure it would pass, holding a referendum on it would be pointless - prove it; why do you and the left continue the argument to refuse the people of this country a say on something which people want a say on, and if its so popular it would only deepen your cause and would make me look like the idiot - but you won't, because you are terrified of the European Union being voted on because people do not want it.

..refusing to take the case to the public is cowardice, only those who are afraid of losing have something to lose if a referendum was held.

Like I said, I think the Lisbon Treaty would win, if people are correctly informed and not misinformed by lies or great distortions, or if they would read the treaty. But this won't happen and someone who can't/won't take the time to really understand what they are voting on, or won't vote on the subject at hand (ie, not 'punishing' the government or getting confused at what they are voting for, my great aunt for example thought the Irish were voting on whether the EU should be disbanded or not), then the referendum is useless.

It's not only the 'left' that don't want a referendum, nor is the EU a 'leftist' organisation. There are plenty of conservatives that want to stay in the EU.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Nu-uh. Scotland acts like a country in many ways, it makes alot of its own laws, it has a different education system, yet it isn't a sovereign state. The European Union makes some laws, has common rules, yet isn't a sovereign state. It's the same thing.

..that is why I said the Republic of China, Scotland and the European Union are the same, they are states in their own right. Therefore as the issue of the United Kingdom being merged into a federal European superstate is such a big issue, there should be a referendum on it.

The EEC no longer exists. It evolved into the EC in the European Union (as one of the three sections). The EEA is EUlite, which is what Norway and Iceland have where they have to accept EU Law (without being able to have a say in it), no EU funding but also there is free movement of people. We still have to pay some money into the EEA/EU but not as much as if we're in the EU.

That just deepens the case for a referendum, we did not vote for European Union we voted for the EEC therefore that referendum back in the 1970s' in annulled, it has no bearing anymore. The EEC was economic co-operation, the European Union is economic union, political union and social union which is totally different to what we voted for.

The EEA isn't the EU, but it still has to abide by EU legislation.

Then I would leave that aswell, and that should be put into a referendum. When I say 'leave the European Union' that means leave the European Union, as in they no longer have control over sovereign policy areas.

Most EU laws do not affect people at ground level, but I am pointing out that if we starting throwing around referendums, which are bad for democracy if you ask me, as it under-minds parliament, why should we have referendums on some issues but not others, as some people view some laws as affecting their lives more-so than others.

We should have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty because it is such a big issue, the European Union affects more than 75% of our laws and affects everything from business right down to what fruit/light bulbs we buy. I would like to see referendums on more issues, but as Europe is the biggest issue, if anything deserves a referendum it is this.

I can't believe you just said that the tories aren't pro-eu. I just can't believe you just said that. THEY SIGNED THE MAASTRICHT TREATY WHICH FORMED THE EU AS IT IS TODAY! They are split, yes, that's why Cameron is trying to keep talk down on the Lisbon Treaty because there is LARGE support of it. Alot of Tories, including Ken Clarke, were against a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Plus, being against the Lisbon Treaty, is not being against the EU. We are all citizens of EU states and therefore we are allowed to dislike the way our union is deviating, just like a UK national is allowed to dislike how labour steered our union.

A lot of the Conservative elite are pro-EU that is right and the Conservatives constantly are split by the European Union issue. Margaret Thatcher has expressed regret of signing into the European Union as she only saw what was becoming of it as her term ended, the formation of a European superstate - hence why the European Union hated the Thatcher government as she forced them to give us a rebate.

There is not large support for the European Union, the tories risk large defection to UKIP at the next election, judging by comments on the Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph, BBC News and Sky News and I too would be voting for UKIP rather than the Conservatives because of Camerons' dithering.

Ken Clarke knows full well that is a referendum was held the Lisbon treaty would not pass, otherwise i'm sure he wouldn't have a problem with it. To be quite frank I couldn't care less what europhiles in the Conservative Party think, as long as the main party line is against the European Union. If the Conservatives truly represented the people then they would pledge to hold a referendum on both EU membership and the Lisbon Treaty, however there have been rumours that will be the case, with Davis, Pickles and Johnson hinting at that.

I am not the Conservative Party, and as I have said time and time again and as I have done this week, I will criticise the Conervatives as much as I would criticise Labour for not taking action on the European Union issue.

As above.

If that is the case, as the Conservatives and UKIP are both against the Lisbon Treaty - do you now accept the Lisbon Treaty is not wanted? (as the Conservatives and UKIP both won more seats in the European Parliamentary Elections than Labour and the Liberal Democrats).

No, I'm sorry, you're wrong. People who have qualifications in subjects that teach you how certain decisions are made (ie Economics), can understand why certain decisions are better than others yet can be unpopular.

Karl Marx could of had a degree in science, business and history for all I know - does it make him right? - no it does not. We could compare our grades to eachother all we wanted, it still doesn't make you right or prove to me anything.

Like I said, I think the Lisbon Treaty would win, if people are correctly informed and not misinformed by lies or great distortions, or if they would read the treaty. But this won't happen and someone who can't/won't take the time to really understand what they are voting on, or won't vote on the subject at hand (ie, not 'punishing' the government or getting confused at what they are voting for, my great aunt for example thought the Irish were voting on whether the EU should be disbanded or not), then the referendum is useless.

Hang on, sorry they would be informed. The Labour Party and Liberal Democrats would fight for a yes vote and the Conservatives and UKIP for a no vote. The Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph and others would fight for a no vote, while the Guardian would fight for a yes vote.

You refuse a vote because you know it will lose, so stop blaming the media and accept people do not want it.

It's not only the 'left' that don't want a referendum, nor is the EU a 'leftist' organisation. There are plenty of conservatives that want to stay in the EU.

The European Union is to the left, Neil Kinnock and his wife, Tony Blair (to be soon), Peter Mandelson and so on have all been in the European Union and have made millions from it. The European Union is command economy, centralised - that is left wing and one of the basics of left wing politics.

It is right some people who call themselves Conservatives are for the European Union, however i'd argue how can you be a Conservative when you are supporting the creation of a unelected federal state with a left wing agenda on climate change and so on, while supporting a centralised-command economy. That is not Conservatism.

[alexxxxx]

The European Union is command economy.

Ok. You've lost it. You obviously don't know what a command economy is. I'm not going to argue against you about the EU anymore because you've made a completely fundamental mistake in describing the EU.