The BNP - Good or Bad?

[Ardemax]

It is indeed disrespectful and if the BNP party leader denies it, then what are the party going to think?

[-:Undertaker:-]

I have never said an opinion which differs to mine should be banned. I believe that he is nothing but an idiot if he denies the holocaust.

How can BNP claim to be not racist when non-whites aren't allowed to be a member? Yes they will be allowed soon but it isn't what they wanted. The fact that non-whites were denied membership in the first place shows that they are racist.

If you believe that denying the holocaust should be illegal then you support banning an opinion which is different to yours, that is not democratic. If you don't believe it should be made illegal, what exactly are you trying to get across?

On the last point, i'm not arguing over whether they are racist or not, that is another can of worms.

agreeing with sergio (on the point that the thread has had about 5 billion more posts since i last came)

but im agreeing with flyduo, sauravg and tash.

denying the holocaust is offending people directly, although it may seem it's not.

like saurav said, if he came and laughed at one of your family's funeral, would you honestly take it as it was and ignore it?

but imagine if people kept laughing, and laughing etc.

Denying the holocaust isn't standing outside somebodies funeral and laughing.

[Geraint]

Good. Britain will improve alot and I shall be voting when I can.

[Ardemax]

Denying the holocaust isn't standing outside somebodies funeral and laughing.

No, you're right...

It's turning to millions of people and saying that you have no knowledge of the war and that your families and relatives funerals are a joke and they didn't die doing anything heroic or brave, they didn't suffer anything. Just move on with your lives and forget about it.

Do you know how many people that would upset?

We fought facists, I don't think people want to forget about it.
Isn't that the point you've being trying to make all along?

[-:Undertaker:-]

No, you're right...

It's turning to millions of people and saying that you have no knowledge of the war and that your families and relatives funerals are a joke and they didn't die doing anything heroic or brave, they didn't suffer anything. Just move on with your lives and forget about it.

Do you know how many people that would upset?

We fought facists, I don't think people want to forget about it.
Isn't that the point you've being trying to make all along?

Thats an opinion, its his opinion which he has a right to express. We did fight facists, yet people such as yourself seem determined to impose it back on us with restriction of freedom of speech.

[Tash.]

No, you're right...

It's turning to millions of people and saying that you have no knowledge of the war and that your families and relatives funerals are a joke and they didn't die doing anything heroic or brave, they didn't suffer anything. Just move on with your lives and forget about it.

Do you know how many people that would upset?

We fought facists, I don't think people want to forget about it.
Isn't that the point you've being trying to make all along?

Could not have said it better myself. Its actually the equivalent in my mind of him standing on the graves and memorials of all those who died and laughing in the face of what they died for.

[Ardemax]

Thats an opinion, its his opinion which he has a right to express. We did fight facists, yet people such as yourself seem determined to impose it back on us with restriction of freedom of speech.

That's not an opinion, it's fact.

If you deny the holocaust, you're insulting millions of people. There's no 2 ways about it.

I'm hardly facist standing up for people who can get picked on day to day by other people who say it's all a myth, they then target the families, insulting them and bringing them to tears.

I don't think you answered my question where I put to you what would you honestly feel like if someone denied your families deaths.

[Black_Apalachi]

... like saurav said, if he came and laughed at one of your family's funeral, would you honestly take it as it was and ignore it?

but imagine if people kept laughing, and laughing etc.

Why, who laughed at whose funeral??? :S

Could not have said it better myself. Its actually the equivalent in my mind of him standing on the graves and memorials of all those who died and laughing in the face of what they died for.

No it's not... :S

That to me is the definition of freedom of speech and yet you go on to say that it should be ok for Griffin to say these things. He is exploiting the use of freedom of speech. I don't personally believe that Nick Griffin is stupid enough to think that the holocaust didnt happen. He's a Hitler sympathiser, he agrees with much of what Hitler said and believed in so of course he's going to deny that such a thing was possible.

The example being used here about shouting hatred to someone on the street does compare with this. I personally did not have any relatives who died in the holocaust but to me its insensitive to suggest that it didn't happen. Freedom of speech is restricted by law, as you say, to prevent the abuse of minorities. This to me is the abuse of the memories of those people who died.

This is exactly the point again, the reason homophobia and racism is outlawed is to prevent it being used as a weapon against someone physically, verbally or mentally. Holocaust denial is abusing someones mental memories of those who died in those concentration camps. It's disrespect on the highest level.

Whether he means what he says is a completely different issue. The point is freedom of speech allows him to BELIEVE the holocaust didn't occur and thus share this belief. Obviously if he doesn't really mean it, then it's not an actual belief :rolleyes:.

Not believing something is not even similar to shouting anything at anybody! :S He's not targeting an individual person like you would be if you were shouting at someone in the street. Also, just because he doesn't believe it, doesn't mean he hates those who do believe it.

I really don't get why you're trying to fade the subject of beliefs into a big huge hate issue? :S:S:S

[-:Undertaker:-]

That's not an opinion, it's fact.

If you deny the holocaust, you're insulting millions of people. There's no 2 ways about it.

I'm hardly facist standing up for people who can get picked on day to day by other people who say it's all a myth, they then target the families, insulting them and bringing them to tears.

I don't think you answered my question where I put to you what would you honestly feel like if someone denied your families deaths.

I didn't say it wasn't a fact, I said some people think its not a fact and in a democracy it is their right to state their opinion.

I wouldn't feel anything because I would know they are dead. :S

[Tash.]

Why, who laughed at whose funeral??? :S



No it's not... :S



Whether he means what he says is a completely different issue. The point is freedom of speech allows him to BELIEVE the holocaust didn't occur and thus share this belief. Obviously if he doesn't really mean it, then it's not an actual belief :rolleyes:.

Not believing something is not even similar to shouting anything at anybody! :S He's not targeting an individual person like you would be if you were shouting at someone in the street. Also, just because he doesn't believe it, doesn't mean he hates those who do believe it.

I really don't get why you're trying to fade the subject of beliefs into a big huge hate issue? :S:S:S

I said in my mind thats what the equivalent is, I didn't say it was the actual equivalent.

When I was writing the part about whether I think he believes what he was saying, what I was trying to put across is he is using his freedom of speech to make a controversial opinion and also with the intention of defending the actions of the Nazi's. What you're not getting is my point that he is exploiting the right to freedom of speech.. thats all i've said. I don't think he hates those who think that the Holocaust did exist, infact i'd rather he did. Instead he continues to disrespect the memories of those who died. That's a whole lot worse.

I'm not actually trying to fade the subject of beliefs into a hate issue, he doesn't just believe in something he feels the need to spread this hatred into the public domain, thats what I don't like. Nick Griffin takes advantage of those who have no real opinion for themselves and therefore take upon the most extreme in their time of need. That's how the Nazi's got into power and it seems as though the lesson hasn't yet been learnt because his mission is to do the same thing all over again and he's being allowed to.

I didn't say it wasn't a fact, I said some people think its not a fact and in a democracy it is their right to state their opinion.

I wouldn't feel anything because I would know they are dead. :S

I'm pretty sure you know he means if someone was denying they died in a concentration camps purely on the basis that they were either disabled, black, jewish, travellers or gay.