Has Britain Declined? [ENDS 20/06/2010]

[Metric1]

Over here we see Britain as a backwards place.

[alexxxxx]

Over here we see Britain as a backwards place.

over here we see the US as a backwards place

[Banana Pancakes]

The EEC was mentioned as a factor which helped Britain back on its feet and ended the decline, this is false.


Not to mention the downpoints of;

• The unelected commission being made up of 'ex'-communists from the USSR.
• The unelected commission being made up of fraudsters and embezzlers.
• The unelected President being on more than the President or PM of the US/UK.
• The elected parliament being only a consultative body and not a body with any legit powers.
• The fact the books of the EU have not been signed off for over a decade now.
• The £45 to £60 million we pay daily to the EU to spend elsewhere in other countries.
• The £100 billion to £130 billion lost to business each year because of EU regulations.
• The loss of national parliament sovereignty to a foreign body which is unaccountable to the British electorate.
• The fact that we have never been given a choice on whether to be part of this political, social and economic union.
• The fact that the EU regulary tramples over democracy (the French, Dutch and Irish referendums)
• The fact the EU and its supporters resort to calling its opposition nazis, extremists and fascists.
• The fact the EU is handing more power back to the unions after our own government rightfully removed those powers.
• The fact the EU spends our own money on propaganda videos, signs, logos and schemes which you can find plastered over nearly every inner-city.
• The fact the EU can fine this country despite this country being one of the top contributors.

The case you make of the United Kingdom being a superpower within Europe also does not stand upto anything; we caved in on a number of issues/were overruled by the EU on;

• The British rebate secured by Margaret Thatcher.
• The pathetic pledge to 'review' and not change the disasterous CAP policy.
• The British government was recently overruled by Brussels (headed by the French and Germans) in changing the hedge fund/private equity laws of which 80% across Europe is based in Britain and that Britain gains a sum of around £5 billion a year thanks to our competitiveness.

In short; the UK is not a superpower within Europe and the longer we remain a part of this Franco-German axis, the more our influence weakens and the further down the road of decline we go (once again).

Just because the EU has overruled Britain on several occasions does not mean the UK is not a super-power. The EU is made up of a great many nations and therefore obviously Britain isn't going to be able to stand up against the whole of the organisation.
I agree that Britain may be losing (part of) its influence but does that mean it's on the road to decline? No it doesn't

[Jordy]

Just because the EU has overruled Britain on several occasions does not mean the UK is not a super-power. The EU is made up of a great many nations and therefore obviously Britain isn't going to be able to stand up against the whole of the organisation.
I agree that Britain may be losing (part of) its influence but does that mean it's on the road to decline? No it doesn't

It does really though, if it's losing influence then it is declining. 100 years ago we were the most powerful nation on earth, today we're not. We clearly have declined, there is no argument there in my eyes. I think the EU influence does have a lot to do with the UK (no longer) being a super-power, if a foreign power has more influence over some issues than the UK Government, it is clearly a loss of power and therefore decline. That's undeniable whether you like the EU or not.

[Banana Pancakes]

It does really though, if it's losing influence then it is declining. 100 years ago we were the most powerful nation on earth, today we're not. We clearly have declined, there is no argument there in my eyes. I think the EU influence does have a lot to do with the UK (no longer) being a super-power, if a foreign power has more influence over some issues than the UK Government, it is clearly a loss of power and therefore decline. That's undeniable whether you like the EU or not.

But that's a collective foreign power. That's like saying the US has declined because the UN has the influence to override its decisions. Granted the Britain was the most powerful country but just because we aren't any more doesn't mean we've declined. Countries such as India, United States and China have far bigger land mass, a greater abundance of raw materials and far greater populations. Obviously they're going to grow faster and there's no surprise that Britain has been overtaken. In proportion of size, Britain is still the greatest country in the world. Britain is a super-power.

[Jordy]

But that's a collective foreign power. That's like saying the US has declined because the UN has the influence to override its decisions. Granted the Britain was the most powerful country but just because we aren't any more doesn't mean we've declined. Countries such as India, United States and China have far bigger land mass, a greater abundance of raw materials and far greater populations. Obviously they're going to grow faster and there's no surprise that Britain has been overtaken. In proportion of size, Britain is still the greatest country in the world. Britain is a super-power.

The UN cannot over-ride the US's decisions I believe, plus you cannot compare the US relationship with the UN and the UKs relationship with the EU. Two very different things.

By your system I reckon the Vatican City would probably be the most powerful country in the world, tiny population and land mass yet the ability to influence 1.1 Billion Catholics throughout the world. I'd also say that Japan possibly has just as much influence as us these days and in terms of land mass I believe we might even be a little bigger than Japan. The fact we are no longer the world super power says to me we have declined, we used to have influence all over the commonwealth and therefore a quarter of the Earth's land mass, we no longer do, there is evidence of declining. While we do have some say in the European Union, UK MEPs make up just under one tenth of the total MEPs within the EU Parliament. They can influence our justice system, economic laws, borders etc. That means the UK Government has lost power whether you like it or not, further evidence of decline.

I'm not saying we're a **** nation or even that decline is a bad thing, I just think you're stupid if you can't accept that it has happened.

[Banana Pancakes]

The UN cannot over-ride the US's decisions I believe, plus you cannot compare the US relationship with the UN and the UKs relationship with the EU. Two very different things.

By your system I reckon the Vatican City would probably be the most powerful country in the world, tiny population and land mass yet the ability to influence 1.1 Billion Catholics throughout the world. I'd also say that Japan possibly has just as much influence as us these days and in terms of land mass I believe we might even be a little bigger than Japan. The fact we are no longer the world super power says to me we have declined, we used to have influence all over the commonwealth and therefore a quarter of the Earth's land mass, we no longer do, there is evidence of declining. While we do have some say in the European Union, UK MEPs make up just under one tenth of the total MEPs within the EU Parliament. They can influence our justice system, economic laws, borders etc. That means the UK Government has lost power whether you like it or not, further evidence of decline.

I'm not saying we're a **** nation or even that decline is a bad thing, I just think you're stupid if you can't accept that it has happened.

How are they different? They are both organisations formed by different countries, both setting regulations that members have to listen to. We no longer have influence over the commonwealth but that doesn't mean we have declined, we let them go, we've obviously still got good relations with the nations hence the commonwealth games. This is not decline. The Vatican City? It has influence over catholics but in worlds politics? No it hasn't. Japan has more than double our population so obviously they're going to grow at a bigger rate.
Just because over nations have overtaken us doesn't mean there is decline.

Edit: Japan is also larger by over 130,000 km squared.

Statistics of total area of countries.

KM Squared

61: Japan 377,930
79: United Kingdom 242,900

[-:Undertaker:-]

The UN cannot over-ride the US's decisions I believe, plus you cannot compare the US relationship with the UN and the UKs relationship with the EU. Two very different things.

By your system I reckon the Vatican City would probably be the most powerful country in the world, tiny population and land mass yet the ability to influence 1.1 Billion Catholics throughout the world. I'd also say that Japan possibly has just as much influence as us these days and in terms of land mass I believe we might even be a little bigger than Japan. The fact we are no longer the world super power says to me we have declined, we used to have influence all over the commonwealth and therefore a quarter of the Earth's land mass, we no longer do, there is evidence of declining. While we do have some say in the European Union, UK MEPs make up just under one tenth of the total MEPs within the EU Parliament. They can influence our justice system, economic laws, borders etc. That means the UK Government has lost power whether you like it or not, further evidence of decline.

I'm not saying we're a **** nation or even that decline is a bad thing, I just think you're stupid if you can't accept that it has happened.

Indeed, and to add to that you must also remember that the parliament of the European Union is only a consultative parliament and not a parliament with any real legislative power over the Commission, European Council or the ECJ.

How are they different? They are both organisations formed by different countries, both setting regulations that members have to listen to. We no longer have influence over the commonwealth but that doesn't mean we have declined, we let them go, we've obviously still got good relations with the nations hence the commonwealth games. This is not decline. The Vatican City? It has influence over catholics but in worlds politics? No it hasn't. Japan has more than double our population so obviously they're going to grow at a bigger rate.
Just because over nations have overtaken us doesn't mean there is decline.

Edit: Japan is also larger by over 130,000 km squared.

Statistics of total area of countries.

KM Squared

61: Japan 377,930
79: United Kingdom 242,900

It matters very little how big your nation state is in terms of area or land so I really have no idea why you keep bringing that fact up because we all know pretty much how big countries are and are not. Of course being in the European Union deepens the decline, if your nation has handed over its sovereign decisions and is being overruled in its sovereign courts/parliament then you have not only lost influence but you barely hold the right to call yourself a nation state anymore. The Commonwealth on the other hand also lost its influence and importance because we foolishly turned our backs on trade with our anglo relatives (India, Canada, New Zealand and Austrialia to name a few) and turned to Europe which is in decline no matter what in terms of future projected birth rates and trade.

In short, we swapped the likes of India and the world for a closed economy within Europe.

But that's a collective foreign power. That's like saying the US has declined because the UN has the influence to override its decisions. Granted the Britain was the most powerful country but just because we aren't any more doesn't mean we've declined. Countries such as India, United States and China have far bigger land mass, a greater abundance of raw materials and far greater populations. Obviously they're going to grow faster and there's no surprise that Britain has been overtaken. In proportion of size, Britain is still the greatest country in the world. Britain is a super-power.

That would be the case if the United Nations could overrule the United States but it cannot as the United States is a member of the security council along with the United Kingdom, Russia, France and the PROC. The word super-power is also wrong to describe ourselves as, we are a great power not a super power. The United States is a super-power just like we used to be (infact you could call Britain a hyper-power under Empire as it had little/no opposition whereas the USA had the USSR to contend with).

Super power/s 2010: United States
Great power/s 2010: United Kingdom, Japan, Russia, Peoples Republic of China, Germany, France.

The generally agreed list can be found on this page if you scroll down;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_p...powers_by_date

[Banana Pancakes]

It matters very little how big your nation state is in terms of area or land so I really have no idea why you keep bringing that fact up because we all know pretty much how big countries are and are not. Of course being in the European Union deepens the decline, if your nation has handed over its sovereign decisions and is being overruled in its sovereign courts/parliament then you have not only lost influence but you barely hold the right to call yourself a nation state anymore. The Commonwealth on the other hand also lost its influence and importance because we foolishly turned our backs on trade with our anglo relatives (India, Canada, New Zealand and Austrialia to name a few) and turned to Europe which is in decline no matter what in terms of future projected birth rates and trade.

In short, we swapped the likes of India and the world for a closed economy within Europe.

I'm pointing out that we've been overtaken by bigger nations because of their potential. Obviously a country with a far greater land mass filled with millions more people and with easier access to raw materials is going to thrive quicker than that of a smaller country such as Britain. Yes we foolishly gave the commonwealth away but by being a member of the EU does not mean we don't have the right 'to call Britain a nation state'.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I'm pointing out that we've been overtaken by bigger nations because of their potential. Obviously a country with a far greater land mass filled with millions more people and with easier access to raw materials is going to thrive quicker than that of a smaller country such as Britain. Yes we foolishly gave the commonwealth away but by being a member of the EU does not mean we don't have the right 'to call Britain a nation state'.

If the United Kingdom has most of its laws/regulations made in Brussels, if the United Kingdom can be overruled by Brussels on both law & courts and if Brussels can fine the United Kingdom then I fail to see how the United Kingdom is a sovereign state in its own right. To say we have somehow not declined is wrong because we have, and the longer we stay within the European Union then the more our decline will hasten - the European Union is never going to work and will only have a short life, but the longer we stay in it then the more we loose our influence around the world which is the ghost of Empire.

A country with more materials/resources will not always be more powerful than a smaller state, infact its pretty much irrelvent. The system of economics is relevent though and the only reason China, India and others are overtaking the western world now is because they have adopted capitalism, the wests economic system. Europe, Africa, South America, North America and Asia had more resources each alone than Britain ever did but Britain developed first because it was the driving force of the new economic system (at the time was state capitalism).