Arizona Representative Gabrielle Giffords is shot

[-:Undertaker:-]

you missed the point. firstly, this man is insane. you're right , I PERSONALLY would not stick my hand in fire. however, someone who is MENTALLY UNSTABLE might. especially if you tell that man his way of life may be in danger if he doesn't. obviously i'm not saying sarah palin pulled the trigger or even directly influenced this man to carry out the attacks (although i wouldn't rule it out), but its how she and other GOP talking heads rile up peoples emotions for no god damn reason over issues that aren't nearly as severe as they say they are that allow the tense political landscape where these types of things happen.

You mean like the hysteria that followed Obama's election victory in 2008? what about the hysteria from both sides over the threat of terrorism and from the Democratic side on the issue of global warming? (i'll go into both on the next quote) By all means attack the Republican Party, but attack the Democratic Party which is part of the same thing - a two headed monster which is destroying the U.S.

This issue is very severe, you are facing complete decline if you do not reign in your spending and your ways - Great Britain suffered the same way.

sarah palin's mantra is "the health care bill is destroying america" which is a statement that is ridiculous to the point of irresponsibility. the GOP has been telling people that the health care bill will allow for the government to kill your relatives who are too old, that the next step up from it is a completely socialist society.

Well it is destroying America - I don't know whether you are aware but you are on the verge of going bankrupt with a growing debt of £13tn+ and in the meantime you are increasing spending, increasing the size and scope of a government that you cannot afford. It is one thing supporting universal healthcare provided by the state, but you cannot afford it - it is not a reality.

The western world is turning socialist, China and the capitalist East are rising and are overtaking you. A report today warned that the U.S. is on the way to socialism, and I agree; http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...st-nation.html

do you think people would be bringing guns to democratic rallies and threatening the lives of politicians if the talking heads of the GOP were honest and said "your taxes might go up in about 5 years because of the health care bill and thats about it"? obviously not, because the only way the GOP gets votes nowadays is if they instill fear in their base. making people fear for their livelihoods makes people act in ways they would not otherwise.

The Democratic Party is just the same with the use of fear, Obama and his global warming bills/spending telling you all that if you do not cough up green taxes the world is going to end - the same accounts for both the Republicans and Democrats concerning terrorism and war, telling you all to abandon your civil liberties in the name of security and you all bow down and agree to be treated like cattle at the airport.

Both the Democrats and Republicans have their stains all over the U.S. Patriot Bill, along with the two wars.

[Catzsy]

Everyone's blaming Sarah Palin which is ridiculous. Yes she's done stupid things but it's not her fault one nutjob took it too far.

Her TV show hasn't been renewed which many believe she quit because she is thinking of running for President in 2012.

So, she really needs this negative publicity like a hole... well, you know.

Well If what I heard is true she published an image on the lady shot with a gun site over her face. This could be seen as pretty provocative and maybe inciting a somebody with mental issues to actually shoot her.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Well If what I heard is true she published an image on the lady shot with a gun site over her face. This could be seen as pretty provocative and maybe inciting a somebody with mental issues to actually shoot her.

You'd be much better asking 'why are people with such mental issues allowed amongst the general public?'.

Of course we know why in Britain this is the case, we closed all the mental hospitals down in an attempt (failed) to 'integrate' these people with the general public, something which costs many lives every year and I suspect it is the same in the U.S.

Palin is not responsible for the actions of others.

[Catzsy]

You'd be much better asking 'why are people with such mental issues allowed amongst the general public?'.

Of course we know why in Britain this is the case, we closed all the mental hospitals down in an attempt (failed) to 'integrate' these people with the general public, something which costs many lives every year and I suspect it is the same in the U.S.

Well we don't know if he has yet so no point speculating at this point. Yes I know all about the 'Care in the Community' initiatives which I agree have totally failed and have put the public at risk. It is niave to suggest that a well known political figure as Sarah Palin should not be responsible for her own actions too. What on earth is she doing publishing images of faces with gun sites over them - did she not think about the consequences that her actions could have?

[RedStratocas]

You mean like the hysteria that followed Obama's election victory in 2008? what about the hysteria from both sides over the threat of terrorism and from the Democratic side on the issue of global warming? (i'll go into both on the next quote) By all means attack the Republican Party, but attack the Democratic Party which is part of the same thing - a two headed monster which is destroying the U.S.

This issue is very severe, you are facing complete decline if you do not reign in your spending and your ways - Great Britain suffered the same way.

never said i think the democrats are any better for this country, but they arent really advocating violence. and "hysteria" following obama's victory? as someone who was HERE in 2008, i didnt see any more "hysteria" than after any presidential election, there are ALWAYS angry people after an election. the people really in real hysterics were those who bought into believing obama was going to take everyone's land and force-teach us the koran.

[COLOR=darkred][SIZE=2][COLOR=black]Well it is destroying America - I don't know whether you are aware but you are on the verge of going bankrupt with a growing debt of £13tn+ and in the meantime you are increasing spending, increasing the size and scope of a government that you cannot afford. It is one thing supporting universal healthcare provided by the state, but you cannot afford it - it is not a reality.

if you think the health care bill is destroying america, that MUST mean you think america was already destroyed in the 1940's. all the health care bill is is an extension of social security to cover more people. there is absolutely no difference. and america has been in debt since its inception, yet we have been able to become the most prosperous nation in history. the way the health care bill was originally intended would SAVE money. the government spends so much money paying for medical treatment for people with no money or insurance (because it is required by law for doctors to treat people in crisis), with or without the health care bill the government is paying the same tab.

The western world is turning socialist, China and the capitalist East are rising and are overtaking you. A report today warned that the U.S. is on the way to socialism, and I agree; http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...st-nation.html

in the 60's and 70's it was russia. in the 80's it was japan. there's always a threat of another country "overtaking us" but we havent seen that come in full. china's one child policy will give their demographics an absurdly old tilt in a few years, halting any sort of prosperity people are predicting. not to mention their historic insularity which only catalyzes any progress. and if socialism means caring about citizens to the point that you that you think people should be allowed to live despite their economic class, you should probably go to wikipedia and edit what their definition of socialism is. even if america did become socialist, would it really make this a land of pain and suffering? people need to stop acting like socialism = hell.

The Democratic Party is just the same with the use of fear, Obama and his global warming bills/spending telling you all that if you do not cough up green taxes the world is going to end - the same accounts for both the Republicans and Democrats concerning terrorism and war, telling you all to abandon your civil liberties in the name of security and you all bow down and agree to be treated like cattle at the airport.

Both the Democrats and Republicans have their stains all over the U.S. Patriot Bill, along with the two wars.

show me a quote where obama suggests the world "is going to end" if we dont pay more taxes. i agree that republicans and democrats are two sides of the same coin, but i dont see nearly as much fear-mongering on the side of democrats.

[-:Undertaker:-]

never said i think the democrats are any better for this country, but they arent really advocating violence. and "hysteria" following obama's victory? as someone who was HERE in 2008, i didnt see any more "hysteria" than after any presidential election, there are ALWAYS angry people after an election. the people really in real hysterics were those who bought into believing obama was going to take everyone's land and force-teach us the koran.

The hysteria was that things were going to change.. they didn't.

Both the GOP & Democrats create mass hysteria over climate change, terrorism, Iraq and WMD.. the list goes on.

if you think the health care bill is destroying america, that MUST mean you think america was already destroyed in the 1940's. all the health care bill is is an extension of social security to cover more people. there is absolutely no difference. and america has been in debt since its inception, yet we have been able to become the most prosperous nation in history. the way the health care bill was originally intended would SAVE money. the government spends so much money paying for medical treatment for people with no money or insurance (because it is required by law for doctors to treat people in crisis), with or without the health care bill the government is paying the same tab.

America has been in decline since the 1940s that is correct. Whenever government/the state starts inteferring and extending social security programmes, them nations go bankrupt. The United Kingdom started in the 1890s which lead to other nations catching up (mainly the U.S.) and then a war finally finished us off after which we still adopted bad economic policies and it took until 1979 for us to (partly) correct those problems by cutting back the state.

The British Empire faced internal decline from around 1890s onwards both economically and via foreign policy (dropping our isolationist outlook) when which a war finally bankrupted us in the 1940s. The United States the way it is playing out has faced internal economic decline from the 1940s along with foreign policy from the 1940s (when you dropped your isolationist outlook and started policing the world).. all it takes now is for a medium sized war and you are quite simply toast.

As for healthcare itself, i'm not all that familiar on the bill itself but I would question the idea it it intended to save money. As it all government programmes it only expands and government is incompetent anyway so you are going to make a huge loss for the money you are putting in. The NHS over here in the UK was similar, funded by U.S. loans and was intended to improve the health service greatly when in reality all it did was create a gigantic inefficent monster which consumed and still consumes huge amounts of money.

in the 60's and 70's it was russia. in the 80's it was japan. there's always a threat of another country "overtaking us" but we havent seen that come in full. china's one child policy will give their demographics an absurdly old tilt in a few years, halting any sort of prosperity people are predicting. not to mention their historic insularity which only catalyzes any progress. and if socialism means caring about citizens to the point that you that you think people should be allowed to live despite their economic class, you should probably go to wikipedia and edit what their definition of socialism is. even if america did become socialist, would it really make this a land of pain and suffering? people need to stop acting like socialism = hell.

The USSR was never a real threat to overtaking the United States as you had the superior capitalist system, they had the failed socialist system. It is partly true about Japan, but with China I think we are seeing something quite different - the western world has never been in so much trouble and it is perfect timing for China to take the reigns (see above again for the similarity with Britains situation around WW2). You also go on to isolationism - isolationism is key to success provided you trade with the world and boy are China trading with the world but are not policing the world.

Socialism.. I don't need to give a history lesson in it; look at Vietnam since it moved away from socialism to a more capitalist tone they have seen amazing growth rates. The same goes for China when Deng moved it from socialism after Mao's death to free marketism and open economics. Socialism brings equality yes, so that everybody is poor and less advantaged. If it takes yet another socialist nightmare for the world to wake upto what socialism really is, we might aswell burn all of our history books.

show me a quote where obama suggests the world "is going to end" if we dont pay more taxes. i agree that republicans and democrats are two sides of the same coin, but i dont see nearly as much fear-mongering on the side of democrats.

"The issue of climate change is one that we ignore at our own peril. There may still be disputes about exactly how much we're contributing to the warming of the earth's atmosphere and how much is naturally occurring, but what we can be scientifically certain of is that our continued use of fossil fuels is pushing us to a point of no return. And unless we free ourselves from a dependence on these fossil fuels and chart a new course on energy in this country, we are condemning future generations to global catastrophe." - Barack Obama

Fear fear and more fear - from both sides, all the time.

It is niave to suggest that a well known political figure as Sarah Palin should not be responsible for her own actions too. What on earth is she doing publishing images of faces with gun sites over them - did she not think about the consequences that her actions could have?

Well most people don't expect nutjobs to take everything they say as damned serious.. so how is she to blame? the consquences from that shooting are down to the man who pulled the shotgun, not from his deluded sense that somebody told him to.

If I told you to jump off a cliff and you do it, who is to blame? you are.

[Stephen]

undertaker ruined another thread

getting tired of this now

[-:Undertaker:-]

undertaker ruined another thread

getting tired of this now

You'll find I didn't start on about how somehow its Palins fault a mad man starts shooting people.. when I replied to that, people reply back yet its my fault? the fact is that people who go on rampages like this do so because they are unstable but they do it on their own merits.

Not some lame political-excuse that 'Sarah Palin gave them ideas'.

[Stephen]

so what you are actually saying is..

You can read the killers mind and tell us all that sarah palin did not give him a small push to go kill someone?

Yano what? I never believed in telepathy before now. But now. NOWWWWWW

[ChickenFaces]

Is it bad that I'm not surprised by this?

Stupid people decide that they just want to shoot people just because they don't know anything else.