Plan to bring UK clocks forward

[-:Undertaker:-]

What is this to do with then?

I have no idea, I can't rationally explain most of the ludicrous things they do let alone why they want to try a tested & failed time change (again).

The only logical explanation is to put us more in line with Europe for political purposes.

EU conspiracy. as is everything.

Yeah, a bit like with the Common market 'only a trading agreement' - now look where we are. Besides alex, you could do with a re-read of all them quotes/extracts I gave you a while ago exposing the real aim for the EU which you long denied was happening. But thats another issue. Wherever these ideas are coming from, be it the EU or this government they simply do not stack up or make sense hence why i've been arguing against them using past examples and logic in this thread.

[alexxxxx]

here's you sat image proving that all of the UK is above portugal.. oh wait, that's ireland.

[Jordy]

EU conspiracy. as is everything.

Sometimes I think "Current Affairs" forum should be merged with the "Jokes" forum, this is one of them.

I have no idea, I can't rationally explain most of the ludicrous things they do let alone why they want to try a tested & failed time change (again).

The only logical explanation is to put us more in line with Europe for political purposes.

The economic and safety argument is entirely logical. I have yet to see a shred of evidence linking this to the EU. This is just ridiculously over the top paranoia with little or no basis, now that my friend is definitely a conspiracy.

[-:Undertaker:-]

here's you sat image proving that all of the UK is above portugal.. oh wait, that's ireland.

We are not exact over Portugal no, but we fit in pretty much over Portugal - otherwise we'd all have nations lines in order of time zone with all exact locations ontop of one another, we are suited better to the current time zone as I said before because we (like Portugal) have found with past experiments that we do not fit into the Berlin time model. That thing called history that we're supposed to learn from shows us that.

Sometimes I think "Current Affairs" forum should be merged with the "Jokes" forum, this is one of them.

The economic and safety argument is entirely logical. I have yet to see a shred of evidence linking this to the EU. This is just ridiculously over the top paranoia with little or no basis, now that my friend is definitely a conspiracy.

I have been over them, kindly read back and respond to the past points I made concerning the business arguments and the failed examples of time zone changes; Portugal (twice), Britain (once) and Newfoundland.

[Jordy]

We are not exact over Portugal no, but we fit in pretty much over Portugal - otherwise we'd all have nations lines in order of time zone with all exact locations ontop of one another, we are suited better to the current time zone as I said before because we (like Portugal) have found with past experiments that we do not fit into the Berlin time model. That thing called history that we're supposed to learn from shows us that.



I have been over them, kindly read back and respond to the past points I made concerning the business arguments and the failed examples of time zone changes; Portgal (twice), Britain (once) and Newfoundland.

Nicely avoiding my point there You have yet to prove any link to David Cameron supporting the Private Members Bill and the European Union. It's an unfounded conspiracy, nothing more.

The experiments in the past did prove for instance that road safety accidents did go down (And if the data is skewed then that makes the experiment invalid), they also did not involve GMT+2 during the summer, simply GMT+1 during the winter. Academics have also shown using statistics that the FTSE 100 rises when clocks go forward and goes down when they go back, proving more economic advantage as well as the tourism affect. It's a much better utilisation of daylight to have it during the evening than the winter.

And just to settle the geographical point finally. We are aligned over France and Spain, the argument that we are aligned over Portugal simply doesn't add up as proven here. I drew these lines from the most Easterly points. Therefore if we've got to "follow the maps" as you're banging on about, it makes sense to have the same timezone as France and Spain.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Nicely avoiding my point there You have yet to prove any link to David Cameron supporting the Private Members Bill and the European Union. It's an unfounded conspiracy, nothing more.

I never said it was a fact, just that there's no other rational explanation for it other than politics on the continent. So no, I haven't avoided any points at all - rather you started by avoiding points by trying to dismiss me (along with alexxxx) by making out that I was some sort of nut until I asked you to address my previous points which I made in a debate with benji.

So don't accuse me of avoiding points, thanks.

The experiments in the past did prove for instance that road safety accidents did go down (And if the data is skewed then that makes the experiment invalid), they also did not involve GMT+2 during the summer, simply GMT+1 during the winter. Academics have also shown using statistics that the FTSE 100 rises when clocks go forward and goes down when they go back, proving more economic advantage as well as the tourism affect. It's a much better utilisation of daylight to have it during the evening than the winter.

The FTSE 100 rises (as do all markets) over a range of things, it is meaningless - again I say with the business argument, business can easily open earlier and if not then it is those restrictions the coalition should be tearing down rather than tampering with the time. For example, mornings will be dark which means less shopping for commuters as they may be less inclined (due to the darkness) to pick up some early morning shopping/snacks.

So I fail to see the 'economic advantage' when in reality there are still the same amount of hours, and people still need to get to sleep at the same times for work so whether or not it is light in the summer at night time does not matter as people will have to go to sleep anyway (which will be a struggle with the sun out late at night) in order to get up for next days work. Infact, it could hamper productivity as people are more likely to be tired especially when they are tempted to stay up longer in the summer time due to prolonged hours of sunlight.

Lastly, this isn't about economics/business because this government does not give a damn about business or economics. If it was so concerned about business/economics and tourism, it would cut down on regulations and taxation - something which it is not doing nor shows any signs of doing. It is nothing but a poor excuse in order to get pro-business Tories behind the idea.

And just to settle the geographical point finally. We are aligned over France and Spain, the argument that we are aligned over Portugal simply doesn't add up as proven here. I drew these lines from the most Easterly points. Therefore if we've got to "follow the maps" as you're banging on about, it makes sense to have the same timezone as France and Spain.

That map only proves to me that GMT and London times are the better times, as we are closer to them. The time we are on now also is much better for Scotland which would be plunged into awkward timing if we were to make a (pointless) change to Berlin time.

If this were the case, why does Berlin not switch to the same time as Kiev? its about the same distance as London is to Berlin as Berlin is to Kiev. This has been tried twice by Portugal, once by ourselves and also by Newfoundland and it failed. Why not admit failure, and put this ridiculous petty change to bed?

[Jordy]

I never said it was a fact, just that there's no other rational explanation for it other than politics on the continent. So no, I haven't avoided any points at all - rather you started by avoiding points by trying to dismiss me (along with alexxxx) by making out that I was some sort of nut until I asked you to address my previous points which I made in a debate with benji.

So don't accuse me of avoiding points, thanks.

The FTSE 100 rises (as do all markets) over a range of things, it is meaningles - again I say with the business argument, business can easily open earlier and if not then it is those restrictions the coalition should be tearing down rather than tampering with the time. For example, mornings will be dark which means less shopping for commuters as they may be less inclined (due to the darkness) to pick up some early morning shopping/snacks.

So I fail to see the 'economic advantage' when in reality there are still the same amount of hours, and people still need to get to sleep at the same times for work so whether or not it is light in the summer at night time does not matter as people will have to go to sleep anyway (which will be a struggle with the sun out late at night) in order to get up for next days work. Infact, it could hamper productivity as people are more likely to be tired especially when they are tempted to stay up longer in the summer time due to prolonged hours of sunlight.

Lastly, this isn't about economics/business because this government does not give a damn about business or economics. If it was so concerned about business/economics and tourism, it would cut down on regulations and taxation - something which it is not doing nor shows any signs of doing. It is nothing but a poor excuse in order to get pro-business Tories behind the idea.



That map only proves to me that GMT and London times are the better times, as we are closer to them.

If this were the case, why does Berlin not switch to the same time as Kiev? its about the same distance as London is to Berlin as Berlin is to Kiev. This has been tried twice by Portugal, once by ourselves and also by Newfoundland and it failed. Why not admit failure, and put this ridiculous petty change to bed?

Would you finally agree that we are aligned over France & Spain and not Portugal? Your accusation that the map doesn't work as the World isn't flat was quickly edited I see, which saves me having to install Google Earth to prove that we are not over Portugal. Geographical points aside, it doesn't matter what Germany, France etc are using as their timezones anyway, that is not the point so I don't see why Berlin is constantly being brought up.

What matters is the economic, safety and leisure advantages in the UK, not some far-fetched conspiracy involving the EU or that we are allegedly aligned over Portugal (We are not) or that we are quite some distance from Berlin. I'm also afraid to say that you are some sort of paranoid nut until you prove the EUs involvement with this other than how you think there's no other way to explain it, which is in no way proving it! As someone who I believe is a great fan of our justice system's Common Law. You have to prove something for them to be guilty. You have to prove the EU's involvement in this issue for it to evidence or a rational explanation, the absence of other explanations doesn't mean it's the EU. Hence why it is a conspiracy like it or not.

Your point about people not being able to go to sleep at night is also not true. June 21st is the longest day of the year, the Sun rises at 4:43 and goes down at 21:21. If we add on an hour to this, the latest the Sun will ever go down in London in GMT+2 is 22:21, which really isn't that late for working adults. I don't think the economy will be suffering from tired workers :L

[-:Undertaker:-]

Would you finally agree that we are aligned over France & Spain and not Portugal? Your accusation that the map doesn't work as the World isn't flat was quickly edited I see, which saves me having to install Google Earth to prove that we are not over Portugal. Geographical points aside, it doesn't matter what Germany, France etc are using as their timezones anyway, that is not the point so I don't see why Berlin is constantly being brought up.

You are not taking into account the tilt/curve of the Earth, which is the reason why we are closer to Portugal based in time and hence why both ourselves and Portugal are not suited to Berlin time having turned it down three times both combined. We are not perfectly over Portugal no, I never said that but we are more or less aligned with portugal in terms of the Sun rising (remember also, we are the United Kingdom and not just Southern England alone which, again, proves the point concerning Scotland being up north of why this is a bad idea).

I understand the sun rises like this (correct me if wrong) when taking into account the tilt.

What matters is the economic, safety and leisure advantages in the UK, not some far-fetched conspiracy involving the EU or that we are allegedly aligned over Portugal (We are not) or that we are quite some distance from Berlin. I'm also afraid to say that you are some sort of paranoid nut until you prove the EUs involvement with this other than how you think there's no other way to explain it, which is in no way proving it! As someone who I believe is a great fan of our justice system's Common Law. You have to prove something for them to be guilty. You have to prove the EU's involvement in this issue for it to evidence or a rational explanation, the absence of other explanations doesn't mean it's the EU. Hence why it is a conspiracy like it or not.

I'm not a judge, I don't have any evidence that the EU is involved other than suspicions and I haven't claimed otherwise. Now you've just dismissed my points about business to go on some side issue of EU involvement which I said I suspect is the only reason our politicians are tempted to make this ridiculous change which has been tried and failed before;- so reply to the business point please which you've bypassed.

That of course is part of my argument, its not really about business because they dont care about business - so why are they saying it is?

Your point about people not being able to go to sleep at night is also not true. June 21st is the longest day of the year, the Sun rises at 4:43 and goes down at 21:21. If we add on an hour to this, the latest the Sun will ever go down in London in GMT+2 is 22:21, which really isn't that late for working adults. I don't think the economy will be suffering from tired workers :L

Why do you think it failed last time? these arguments are not stacking up, and I remember on summer days it being quite light at near 11 o'clock maximum - forwarded this is bad news for people trying to get to sleep on work days, especially weak sleepers who will be tempted to stay up longer.

Lets see, Portugal and Britain have tried three time and each time it failed? has the Earth suddenly changed rotation/tilt or has something changed drastically with the sun which would suggest that another attempt at changing the time zone would be a good idea now?

Failed three times, why try again when the circumstances have not changed?

EDIT; yes we are more or less above Portugal with the axis tilt of the Earth, look at a globe and keep your finger on a straight line down (from pole to pole) and you'll see we keep in fitting with Portugal roughly (its confusing, look on a globe).

[Jordy]

EDIT; yes we are above Portugal with the axis tilt of the Earth, look at a globe and keep your finger on a straight line down and you'll see we keep in fitting with Portugal (its confusing, look on a globe).

Can we finally put that one to bed now I've proved I'm right?

It also did not fail in the UK last time, there was no outcome either way with the Pros & Cons and it was ended there with no conclusion. As for Portugal, it doesn't matter what they find. The country isn't aligned under us, nor is the country anywhere near as tall as the UK in length so it does not face the same issues as us, we are much further north. The daylight is simply not beneficial in the morning, in the evening it can be utilised so much better by playing sport perhaps and people/tourists can stay out longer for instance, therefore boosting the economy. And there was also the stock market argument you dismissed.

[Rixion]

it's a bad idea, they're basically tampering with time zones if they do this, it's fine as it is we've been living like as it is forever..