Teen Killers Sentenced as Adults

[-:Undertaker:-]

i am against war. i am not against abortion as in my opinion it's a completely different scenario, and i know you'll pick me up and say it's still life but from experience, i am pro-choice.

But that just shows to me that what you said on..

i don't think anyone has the authority to take life, so why should a government be any different?

..you don't really believe that as you support abortion.

They are rather different you are correct, the differences being that abortion is the killing of an innocent human being without trial and the death penalty is the execution of the guilty who have been found guilty by trial via a jury of their peers.

[beth]

But that just shows to me that what you said on..



..you don't really believe that as you support abortion.

They are rather different you are correct, the differences being that abortion is the killing of an innocent human being without trial and the death penalty is the execution of the guilty who have been found guilty by trial via a jury of their peers.

i guess you are right that i am contradicting myself, but they are my opinions and whether they contradict or not that's what i believe. i wouldn't put a criminal to death, but i would put my own unborn child to death. this probably makes me a terrible person, but i believe we should live by our own judgements of self and i am quite happy with my choices.

[HotelUser]

So you are against the logic of punishment in general? punishment is there both as a pillar of morality (the idea that to do something wrong results in punishment, a taboo we should avoid) and punishment also of course acts as a deterrent - of which the punishment must match the crime.

Now as for data on crime I wouldn't dream of going into it as the figures have been progressively fiddled for decades, but the argument against the death penalty that is often used with the given examples of the United States and its high crime rate simply does not stand up as the United States does not really have the death penalty in operation anymore and is seldom used - thus it does not act as an effective deterrent.



Which is what the left does and which the courts now do, simply ignoring the fact that if you are of sound mind you are responsible for your own actions and not your parents, your school, past enemies, your friends or your wealth or social status. But this is sadly what we end up with, the irony being that the people who suffer from crime the most (the poorest) and whom cannot escape from it are the ones who the left claim to care about.

As for me bringing in the left, it needs to be brought up because its fundamental to understanding why our justice system fails so many people.

And if you read the right side of my post you would of seen that I don't agree with that.

[-:Undertaker:-]

i guess you are right that i am contradicting myself, but they are my opinions and whether they contradict or not that's what i believe. i wouldn't put a criminal to death, but i would put my own unborn child to death. this probably makes me a terrible person, but i believe we should live by our own judgements of self and i am quite happy with my choices.

Well at least you'll admit it which is good (and +rep for that), but I would urge you to look into it as I think even you can now see the conflicting nature of the two issues when put next to one another - I used to take the same lines you take (as many do simply as conventional thought) until I looked into it more deeply.

And if you read the right side of my post you would of seen that I don't agree with that.

I'm not disagreeing with you as we both agree. I'm simply picking up on a point you raised and adding to it which many on the left raise in these topics as an excuse in order not to punish those of sound mind who are responsible for their own actions.

[GommeInc]

Seems like a decent decision. We all know capital punishment doesn't work as it is a waste of money and reinstating it for a non-problem is a waste of resources when major crime in most western countries is down (that would result in the death penalty if it was legalised) and crime tends to lean towards theft, GBH and petty crime. Times change and the way crime works has changed, the only problem is the prison and judiciary system which is too lenient on punishment, though that is only important if re-offending is high, but in the UK it is low (may be different in Canada).

Canadian Government Statistics :
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quoti...00720a-eng.htm

Seems the crime severity index rose slightly in 2006 and dropped quite a lot in 2009.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Seems like a decent decision. We all know capital punishment doesn't work as it is a waste of money and reinstating it for a non-problem is a waste of resources when major crime in most western countries is down (that would result in the death penalty if it was legalised) and crime tends to lean towards theft, GBH and petty crime. Times change and the way crime works has changed, the only problem is the prison and judiciary system which is too lenient on punishment, though that is only important if re-offending is high, but in the UK it is low (may be different in Canada).

Canadian Government Statistics :
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quoti...00720a-eng.htm

Seems the crime severity index rose slightly in 2006 and dropped quite a lot in 2009.

We all know government statistics are fiddled and the books are well and truly cooked, not to mention the fact that nowadays many simply do not report crime anymore as the police no longer patrol the streets as they only appear after the crime is committed despite a large increase in the numbers of police. As for re-offending in the UK, it is high just the books are cooked (again) as offenders who are put on rehabilitation are picked to go on rehabiliation solely for the purpose that they are known to be unlikely to re-offend (see video);



Now as for the idea that it doesn't work - its a punishment, to be sentenced to death because of their action/s. To be sent to death for the actions you have carried out is the punishment so of course it works, not only would it make killers think twice before carrying out a murder, it would mean that once caught and sentenced they are properly punished [if they are of sound mind] for their role in taking the life of another human being. I'm not saying crime would automatically stop overnight, but it would act as a deterrant and would be a fitting punishment for the most hideous of crimes.

I have to ask, do you think it fair to have a referendum on the issue among many others and let the people decide?

[tardis101]

Okay so another two teenagers turning into killers, well I say either shoot them where they stand or stick them in a cell to rot simples cant say fairer than that tbh.

[GommeInc]

We all know government statistics are fiddled and the books are well and truly cooked, not to mention the fact that nowadays many simply do not report crime anymore as the police no longer patrol the streets as they only appear after the crime is committed despite a large increase in the numbers of police. As for re-offending in the UK, it is high just the books are cooked (again) as offenders who are put on rehabilitation are picked to go on rehabiliation solely for the purpose that they are known to be unlikely to re-offend (see video);



Now as for the idea that it doesn't work - its a punishment, to be sentenced to death because of their action/s. To be sent to death for the actions you have carried out is the punishment so of course it works, not only would it make killers think twice before carrying out a murder, it would mean that once caught and sentenced they are properly punished [if they are of sound mind] for their role in taking the life of another human being. I'm not saying crime would automatically stop overnight, but it would act as a deterrant and would be a fitting punishment for the most hideous of crimes.

I have to ask, do you think it fair to have a referendum on the issue among many others and let the people decide?

How do you know the books are fiddled with? How do you know the statistics? What are your sources? If these books are fiddled with, then you're in the dark too It's not a deterrent as discovered in that other thread, where America barely use it in the modern day and when it was used often it was going up alongside the crimes (and crime is instant, unlike months of waiting for the government to kill someone). Hardly a deterrent, more a waste of resources. If people want to commit a crime, they will (as described in the death sentence thread).

[-:Undertaker:-]

How do you know the books are fiddled with? How do you know the statistics? What are your sources? If these books are fiddled with, then you're in the dark too It's not a deterrent as discovered in that other thread, where America barely use it in the modern day and when it was used often it was going up alongside the crimes (and crime is instant, unlike months of waiting for the government to kill someone). Hardly a deterrent, more a waste of resources. If people want to commit a crime, they will (as described in the death sentence thread).

The books are fiddled just as almost everything else is which is published by the government, unemployment figures have been fiddled for decades and still are as are inflation figures along with the sectioning of crime rates (by which they class certain things in differing categories) - I don't believe government because I have no reason to believe government because i'm afraid they lie all the time.

Now you keep saying its a 'waste of resources' - surely what the real waste of resources is 'rehabiliation' which doesn't work as shown with the video above and the work done by Peter Hitchnes (again showing how the figures are fiddled in a certain way to get certain results, see global warming also) along with locking these people up costing money and then allowing them out whilst they commit various crimes until they are eventually caught again which we then spend more money on concerning trials and so forth.

Execution doesn't have to be costly at all.

It's not a deterrent as discovered in that other thread, where America barely use it in the modern day and when it was used often it was going up alongside the crimes (and crime is instant, unlike months of waiting for the government to kill someone).

America barely uses it and has high crime rates.

I know the anti-death penalty lobby like to turn that around and pretend that because the United States has high crime rates, this shows that the death penalty does not work - when infact it is the opposite as it is seldom used in the States.

[FREWIN]

I think that if the party involved shows no blatent remorse for killing then the death penalty should be brought into play. I don't think they should go from the courtroom straight to the gallows but be re-questioned after a while in prison. People may kill and now realise their wrongs, but in some cases they just do not care. These are the ones who shouldn't be allowed.