In dramatic U-turn, Cameron's senior policy advisor backs calls to pull out of Europe

[-:Undertaker:-]

You have no idea what Labour would have done right now and you never will. Personally, I think Labour would stick with the EU; the Euro has been deteriorating for years (heck, the financial crisis in 2008 was under the Labour Government) and they failed to show any indication to their activity in the EU. I agree with you on bailing out Greece, it's a load of rubbish and it's time we sorted our own problems out before helping others.

I do, because Labour signed up to the bailout mechanism which the Tories have continued which suggests (and given their past mismanagement of finances) that they would have done exactly the same as the Tories are now, thats why you don't see any disagreement between them on this issue. A final note on the financial crisis, The Conservatives supported Labours spending plans until 2008 - they both have their fingers in the pie.

See again, it doesn't matter which one is in office because they are both in agreement with one another, proven by facts.

Of course the Conservatives have been pro-EU in the past and they probably still are, I haven't said anywhere that they aren't. All I have said is that it's "nice for a high member of the current Government to be in the minority" and it's therefore a step in the right direction.

Still are indeed, which is why I had to comment when you and Ayd spoke about Labour regaining the keys to Number 10 asking why it mattered in this instance whether Labour get back in come the next election or whether the Conservative Party wins the next election because both are fully supportive of the EU. Labour has voices against the EU as well you know, just because 30 Tory MPs (maximum) are against Europe doesn't mean the party is. They are a small insignifigant sideshow, intended to be there only so it gives the illusion that the Tory Party is defending British interests - which its not.

And anyone who wants this country to be independent again needs to wake up and realise this.

[Mathew]

Labour has voices against the EU as well you know,

In that case, then why is the "oh-so-dramatic U-turn" of a senior Conservative advisor who happens to be anti-EU so newsworthy? You've compared Labour and the Conservatives and said they're similar because their MPs are divided; if this is common knowledge to you, then why is it such a big deal?

[-:Undertaker:-]

In that case, then why is the "oh-so-dramatic U-turn" of a senior Conservative advisor who happens to be anti-EU so newsworthy? You've compared Labour and the Conservatives and said they're similar because their MPs are divided; if this is common knowledge to you, then why is it such a big deal?

Because of what he said, that having been pro-EU previously he has now seen the extent that the EU now dictates government policy and has come out against it after only a year in government - thats why its newsworthy, that somebody who used to support the status quo has now woken up to the issue which was far bigger than he first thought whilst in opposition. It is a prime example of why people should care and that it is time for people to start doing something about it, which brings me onto my next point/question;

So if you want your country to be independent why do you support a party which belives in the opposite, that we should be ruled from Brussels?

[Mathew]

Because of what he said, that having been pro-EU previously he has now seen the extent that the EU now dictates government policy and has come out against it after only a year in government - thats why its newsworthy, that somebody who used to support the status quo has now woken up to the issue which was far bigger than he first thought whilst in opposition.

So if you want your country to be independent why do you support a party which belives in the opposite, that we should be ruled from Brussels?

You're not understanding my posts. I have merely said that we are stepping in the right direction towards some independence, despite the chances of it happening being extremely low as there is still a lot of MPs to go at. I understand your point about him changing though and I assume you're saying the rest of them (Labour MPs who oppose EU for example) have always thought that. Interesting.

[Recursion]

LET'S GO BOYS. About time we pulled out of that ****.

[David]

Anyone post some pros and cons if UK back out?
I have no idea what's going on.

[alexxxxx]

Anyone post some pros and cons if UK back out?
I have no idea what's going on.

Pros:
-Dan would have to blame someone else for the UK's shortcomings.
-More money for the treasury
Cons:
- Have to abide by EU trade law without having any say in how it's made

[David]

Pros:
-Dan would have to blame someone else for the UK's shortcomings.
-More money for the treasury
Cons:
- Have to abide by EU trade law without having any say in how it's made

Thanks
Sounds like a good idea to me.

[Mathew]

Anyone post some pros and cons if UK back out?
I have no idea what's going on.

Why we should back out:

• We can regain control of our immigration system and the free border wouldn't be in place. This means we wouldn't get people coming to live here from other countries and claming off our benefits system.
• The UK would regain sovereignty and therefore wouldn't be expected to help bail out other countries such as Greece (to use a recent example).
• Due to the UK's apparent (or perhaps outdated) label as being a super-power, we receive little benefits. The country should be wealthy enough to support itself and therefore doesn't need the help of EU for "trade links".
• The EU largely over-powers parliament and we're expected to bow down and kiss their feet as they're giving us so much in return.
• According to Treasury Reports, it's pretty fair to say that we give the EU about £14 billion a year, yet UKIP tend to advertise we're giving £40 million a day - I'll leave you to work out which is correct, although I'm sure you'll agree that it's £14 billion too much for what is little benefit.
• Many of the laws passed in the UK at present come from this (to use Dan's catchphrase) "unelected Government in Brussels" - I have quoted an example of one of the EU's barmy regulations on the straightness of bananas and cucumbers:

As Commission Regulation (EC) 2257/94 puts it, bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature". In the case of "Extra class" bananas, there is no wiggle room, but Class 1 bananas can have "slight defects of shape", and Class 2 bananas can have full-on "defects of shape".
No attempt is made to define "abnormal curvature" in the case of bananas, which must lead to lots of arguments. Contrast the case of cucumbers (Commission Regulation (EEC) No 1677/88), where Class I and "Extra class" cucumbers are allowed a bend of 10mm per 10cm of length. Class II cucumbers can bend twice as much

So-called "pros" to being in the EU:

• Free trade between 27 powerful economies - really?
• Free border - is this really good?
• Environment legislation - could be set up by ourselves?
• Provides a "voice" for unelected parties such as UKIP / BNP... although on one hand I really don't see the fascination with this. For one, they weren't voted in. For another, they're probably not listened to in what is a large-scale organisation.
• Apparently the EU also quite enjoys promoting itself as the largest combined economy, although what they fail to realise is that those countries would probably do better alone; or at least those like the UK would.

You could compare the EU to Communism. It sounds all hunky-dory in theory (with it's amazing free-trade with 27 powerful economies), but in practice it just doesn't work. The EU wanted to be a large group of countries all trading with the same currency and goals, hence the Euro; but also as we've seen lately... it just doesn't work. It seems to be forgotten that the UK was once a massive super-power with one of the biggest world economies and it's such a shame that we now have to polish the shoes of Brussels.

[David]

Why we should back out:

• We can regain control of our immigration system and the free border wouldn't be in place. This means we wouldn't get people coming to live here from other countries and claming off our benefits system.
• The UK would regain sovereignty and therefore wouldn't be expected to help bail out other countries such as Greece (to use a recent example).
• Due to the UK's apparent (or perhaps outdated) label as being a super-power, we receive little benefits. The country should be wealthy enough to support itself and therefore doesn't need the help of EU for "trade links".
• The EU largely over-powers parliament and we're expected to bow down and kiss their feet as they're giving us so much in return.
• According to Treasury Reports, it's pretty fair to say that we give the EU about £14 billion a year, yet UKIP tend to advertise we're giving £40 million a day - I'll leave you to work out which is correct, although I'm sure you'll agree that it's £14 billion too much for what is little benefit.
• Many of the laws passed in the UK at present come from this (to use Dan's catchphrase) "unelected Government in Brussels" - I have quoted an example of one of the EU's barmy regulations on the straightness of bananas and cucumbers:

So-called "pros" to being in the EU:

• Free trade between 27 powerful economies - really?
• Free border - is this really good?
• Environment legislation - could be set up by ourselves?
• Provides a "voice" for unelected parties such as UKIP / BNP... although on one hand I really don't see the fascination with this. For one, they weren't voted in. For another, they're probably not listened to in what is a large-scale organisation.
• Apparently the EU also quite enjoys promoting itself as the largest combined economy, although what they fail to realise is that those countries would probably do better alone; or at least those like the UK would.

You could compare the EU to Communism. It sounds all hunky-dory in theory (with it's amazing free-trade with 27 powerful economies), but in practice it just doesn't work. The EU wanted to be a large group of countries all trading with the same currency and goals, hence the Euro; but also as we've seen lately... it just doesn't work. It seems to be forgotten that the UK was once a massive super-power with one of the biggest world economies and it's such a shame that we now have to polish the shoes of Brussels.

Thanks for that, great points in there.
The so-called pros, what idiot wrote these into play?
Made my mind up now, I agree with you on this, & yeah everyone overlooks the fact that Britain had her own Empire back in the day.