Justice?

[-:Undertaker:-]

This isn't nice and i'm unsure whether I believe what he did, as sick as it is, merits the death penalty anyway. However, faced with this man back out on the streets (as is what always happens) and him being dead..... I pick his death. I say this as someone who wants a strong justice system with the death penalty, to prevent dangerous mob-rule.

No-one deserves death at all? I don't care if they've gone and murdered 50 people... killing the murderer just makes you as bad as him/her.

Prisons are kinda a non-useful option, considering you're crowding 100's of criminals in 1 place..stuff like this is bound to happen. I don't get why the majority of people aren't just put under house arrest. I mean people got arrested in the riots and placed in prison, simply for making a stand for what they believed in. But yes, I do undestant they shouldn't have taken it too extreme.

Justice system is completely messed up. Least we don't have the death penalty.

The reason we have an appalling justice system is because we don't have the death penalty. The lack of justice leads to mob rule like this sickening act we have seen, and as we've also seen - there's a great deal of support for this grusome method of execution and why? because our justice system does not punish, so we've now turned to criminals themselves to do the punishing.

The amazing thing is, I never ever hear the anti-death penalty crowd (in and out of government) condone the deaths of the likes of Osama Bin Laden.

[Catzsy]

This isn't nice and i'm unsure whether I believe what he did, as sick as it is, merits the death penalty anyway. However, faced with this man back out on the streets (as is what always happens) and him being dead..... I pick his death. I say this as someone who wants a strong justice system with the death penalty, to prevent dangerous mob-rule.




The reason we have an appalling justice system is because we don't have the death penalty. The lack of justice leads to mob rule like this sickening act we have seen, and as we've also seen - there's a great deal of support for this grusome method of execution and why? because our justice system does not punish, so we've now turned to criminals themselves to do the punishing.

The amazing thing is, I never ever hear the anti-death penalty crowd (in and out of government) condone the deaths of the likes of Osama Bin Laden.

I don't believe that it is right in any circumstance. Much as I felt Saddam Hussein was an evil match the manner of his death sickened me too.

[Ajthedragon]

It's a shame he didn't get to spend his life thinking about what a sicko he was, to suffer while the whole world went by...

Anyone who says he deserved death obviously aren't that much better than the people who killed him.

Capital punishment in itself is more civilised than being beaten to death in a prison.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I don't believe that it is right in any circumstance. Much as I felt Saddam Hussein was an evil match the manner of his death sickened me too.

The manner of his execution or his actual execution? the same applies to Bin Laden of whom the British government celebrated his death (which was without trial, without jury, with being charged, done in a grusome way) which is the same British government which won't re-introduce the death penalty with trial by jury, the right of appeal and so forth.

Death, when done properly, is the ultimate punishment - thats why criminals use it on one another and thats why we should use it on them.

[AgnesIO]

don't believe anybody has a right to kill anybody else, regardless of what they've done.
what kind of sick **** tortures someone like that anyway? surely they're ****** too?

Well yeah prisoners who are on the same wing as rapists tend to be ****** too.

---------- Post added 03-10-2011 at 05:40 PM ----------

The manner of his execution or his actual execution? the same applies to Bin Laden of whom the British government celebrated his death (which was without trial, without jury, with being charged, done in a grusome way) which is the same British government which won't re-introduce the death penalty with trial by jury, the right of appeal and so forth.

Death, when done properly, is the ultimate punishment - thats why criminals use it on one another and thats why we should use it on them.

What if you find out a few years later you killed someone innocent?

Also since the death penalty was reinstated in New York in 1995, the average cost if charging and giving someone the death penalty is like $23,000,000.

[Catzsy]

The manner of his execution or his actual execution? the same applies to Bin Laden of whom the British government celebrated his death (which was without trial, without jury, with being charged, done in a grusome way) which is the same British government which won't re-introduce the death penalty with trial by jury, the right of appeal and so forth.

Death, when done properly, is the ultimate punishment - thats why criminals use it on one another and thats why we should use it on them.

Well I just don't believe in execution - full stop whatever any political parties say. I am not a sheep.

[-:Undertaker:-]

What if you find out a few years later you killed someone innocent?

What if you find out you've allowed somebody to die in prison who was innocent? what if you find out you sent somebody who was innocent to prison and other inmates ended up killing that prisoner based on the wrong charges you put him away under? what if you find out you've killed an enemy soldier who didn't believe in the war he was fighting against you? we all make mistakes, no human system is infallible - thats why, with the death penalty and justice in general we have trial by jury and the right to appeal which are our most prized values even as there are attempts by the government and the European Union to destroy these liberties.

There are risks to everything, however we assess these risks just as you do everyday when you walk across the road.

Also since the death penalty was reinstated in New York in 1995, the average cost if charging and giving someone the death penalty is like $23,000,000.

The costs can be brought down if we knock away at red tape throughout government.

Well I just don't believe in execution - full stop whatever any political parties say. I am not a sheep.

But then I come back to the point, you believe in abortion and no doubt euthanasia without consent? ..so at the end of the day, you do believe in execution as many alike you also do. I believe in the guilty being executed (provided it merits the crime) and the innocent always being protected - I think that is a sound set of morals for any free society.

[AgnesIO]

What if you find out you've allowed somebody to die in prison who was innocent? what if you find out you sent somebody who was innocent to prison and other inmates ended up killing that prisoner based on the wrong charges you put him away under? what if you find out you've killed an enemy soldier who didn't believe in the war he was fighting against you? we all make mistakes, no human system is infallible - thats why, with the death penalty and justice in general we have trial by jury and the right to appeal.

There are risks to everything, however we assess these risks just as you do everyday when you walk across the road.



The costs can be brought down if we knock away at red tape throughout government.



But then I come back to the point, you believe in abortion and no doubt euthanasia without consent?

1) The difference is with point one, that the chances of you finding out someone was innocent after they die in prison (of natural causes?) is so small - since they could have been in prison for 30 years already.
2) The chances of an inmate being killed by other prisoners is minuscule. Or this thread wouldn't have even been news.
3) The enemy soldier was still fighting against you, and would have killed you if you didn't kill them - this isn't really the same thing
4) Yeah there are risks to everything, but that is one reason why the death penalty is not brought back.

How can we honestly say we live in a civilised society, and then go and kill people? Civilised societies do not tolerate torture - so the death penalty would totally destroy our so called 'civilised society'.

[-:Undertaker:-]

1) The difference is with point one, that the chances of you finding out someone was innocent after they die in prison (of natural causes?) is so small - since they could have been in prison for 30 years already.

Ah right, so thats ok then? surely if thats the case, the chances of finding that somebody had been executed under false evidence would also be as equally the same thus making your point void?

2) The chances of an inmate being killed by other prisoners is minuscule. Or this thread wouldn't have even been news.

The chances of innocent people being sent to death is also minuscule.

3) The enemy soldier was still fighting against you, and would have killed you if you didn't kill them - this isn't really the same thing

But if death as a punishment/a means of punishment is wrong, shouldn't the soldier be given the same compassion? see, the difference between death in war and the death penalty is stark; with the death penalty you have trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty, the right of appeal and a humane method of execution.

So anybody who really didn't believe in execution wouldn't support war under any circumstances nor would they support abortion or euthanasia, which I have a deep suspicion you yourself do support.

4) Yeah there are risks to everything, but that is one reason why the death penalty is not brought back.

Then why not abolish prisons under this excuse as a result of 1)?

How can we honestly say we live in a civilised society, and then go and kill people? Civilised societies do not tolerate torture - so the death penalty would totally destroy our so called 'civilised society'.

Er no it wouldn't actually, we were far more civilised when we had the death penalty than we are now. Britain in general - did we have ***** falling over in the streets at 2am? no. Did we have thousands of babies every year terminated on the basis of 'they are not wanted'? no. Did we have more civil liberties back when the death penalty was about? yes. Did pensioners and the public at large live in fear of organised and loutish crime day in, day out? no. Did the Police command respect? yes. Did people have faith in the justice system? yes, they did. I could go on but we'd be here some time.

So the 'its not civilised' argument really doesn't stack up if you really have a think about it - especially when the death penalty would have with it; trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty, the right of appeal. What has made us civilised as a country are these values.

So the debate really is, is the death penalty worthy as the ultimate punishment?

[AgnesIO]

Ah right, so thats ok then? surely if thats the case, the chances of finding that somebody had been executed under false evidence would also be as equally the same thus making your point void?

Incorrect. The difference is if someone hasn't been found to be innocent after 30 years in jail, then something has gone horribly wrong. The chances of finding someone is innocent after a short amount of time (eg. giving them the death penalty) is much higher.

The chances of innocent people being sent to death is also minuscule.

But higher.

But if death as a punishment/a means of punishment is wrong, shouldn't the soldier be given the same compassion? see, the difference between death in war and the death penalty is stark; with the death penalty you have trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty, the right of appeal and a humane method of execution.

So anybody who really didn't believe in execution wouldn't support war under any circumstances nor would they support abortion or euthanasia, which I have a deep suspicion you yourself do support.

No. As a soldier you are being paid to kill the enemy - that is your job, you know the risk is that your enemy will beat you to it.

Also, that is not really true. I support abortion is the sense that I would far rather a fetus that is barely there be killed before they are born, if their mother clearly doesn't want them. It is better to kill it when it doesn't really have feelings, than to let it be born and have parents who do not want it - making the life of the child unpleasant. Also, with euthanasia, people are not being sentenced to death. People have the right do die in countries where euthanasia is legal - if someone wants to die due to a terminal illness and wants to go with respect - then so be it. But no one chooses to die via the death penalty - so again it is a different argument really.

Er no it wouldn't actually, we were far more civilised when we had the death penalty than we are now. Britain in general - did we have ***** falling over in the streets at 2am? no. Did we have thousands of babies every year terminated on the basis of 'they are not wanted'? no. Did we have more civil liberties back when the death penalty was about? yes. Did pensioners and the public at large live in fear of organised and loutish crime day in, day out? no. Did the Police command respect? yes. Did people have faith in the justice system? yes, they did. I could go on but we'd be here some time.

You can tell you rape tabloids. A lot of journalese used in tabloids. Also, your argument over the babies - that is because abortion didn't really exist? If someone has accidently fallen pregnant (hey, they might have even been raped), is it not better for the fetus to be killed before it has really developed feelings than have it born in to a family where it isn't wanted? Just like in the animal world where young animals are born but are rejected by their mothers - is it not better for the fetus to be killed when it isn't fully developed etc?

So the 'its not civilised' argument really doesn't stack up if you really have a think about it - especially when the death penalty would have with it; trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty, the right of appeal. What has made us civilised as a country are these values.

Alright time for another argument, although I personally believe it isn't totally civilised. How on earth can we teach that killing is wrong by killing - I mean surely that is totally contradictory? Also it is fact that in states with the death penalty in the US there is a higher murder rate than in states without the death penalty. So this would beg the question; does the death penalty really deter people?

So the debate really is, is the death penalty worthy as the ultimate punishment?

In bold.