David Cameron vetoes EU treaty change

[-:Undertaker:-]

Please don't listen to [@]@Technologic[/@], he repeats like a parrot the usual strawman arguments because everybody here knows, whatever Technologic and the European Union supporters claim otherwise, that whether we are in or out of the European Union - we will always trade with Europe and be friends with Europe just like the rest of the world are. As cocaine has made the point very wisely, the likes of Technologic are the same people who told us only a few years ago that if we didn't join the Euro the economy of our 'tiny island' would, in their words, 'collapse'.

There goes any power we had in Europe.

Even if we did have 'power in Europe' prior to this (which we did not), what point is there having 'power' when you won't exercise it in our interests?

[-:Undertaker:-]

I'd also add quickly that nothing has been 'won' today although I am happy regardless that at least something however tiny has been done in the British national interest and I never thought I would say that, of course whether it was David Cameron himself or due to backbench pressure remains to be seen. We remain tonight though as a country which has most of its legislation made by the unelected European Commission and we are still on the road to 'ever closer Union' of which I have explained many times before.

The Euro itself on the other hand remains on the ropes, it is utterly doomed as no real agreement has been reached or will be reached. The consquences of the Euro are fiscal union and political union (the creation of a new country, the European Union, essentially) and with all the national constituional barriers in the way along with national leaders facing re-election the chances of this are almost nil. It has mere months remaining.

What next? the likelyhood is a Tory backbench demand that a referendum be held due to the fact that a Eurozone 'bloc' has now been created in those smaller areas where Qualified Majority Voting still exists which is an entirely fair demand - if the Labour Party side with the rebels on this when the time comes, it would almost certainly bring the government down. But either way, the 'project' is in collapse and we will leave as I have always said - we are that step closer to the exit tonight.

[Technologic]

Squawk squawk

Edited by Catzsy (Forum Super Moderator): Please do not make pointless posts.

[Eoin247]

We put in 103 billion and got back 46 billion in 2007-2013 (estimated). We will never see that back and this massive source of money has to end somewhere. We could be saving huge amounts of money by getting out of the EU and ultimately borrow less which would help get us out of the crisis anyway.

Feel i should point out that that doesn't take indirect benefits into consideration .

[-:Undertaker:-]

Feel i should point out that that doesn't take indirect benefits into consideration .

Like? and before you reply, i'd like to ask whether any of these benefits could be achieved via national parliament/an IGC.

[Eoin247]

Most benefits of the EU (in particular to large countries) are indirect, and hence why big eu countries like France, Germany and the UK invested in the EU to such an extent. I'm not too sure why you are asking me what are its indirect benefits as that's what the EU mostly is in regards to benefits. An example i suppose of how big countries look after indirect benefits to such a large degree is when the UK lent Ireland a good bit of money there out of their own accord. They weren't forced to do so by the EU, but by keeping the irish economy going it gives the UK indirect benefits from things like stability, exports, imports, services, relations, etc.

The UK economy is heavily swayed towards financial services from what i hear. Unfortunately your economy (and ours) is not as diversified as France or Germanys is. Keeping relations and trade strong and stable is a must.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Most benefits of the EU (in particular to large countries) are indirect, and hence why big eu countries like France, Germany and the UK invested in the EU to such an extent. I'm not too sure why you are asking me what are it's indirect benefits as that's what the EU mostly is in regards to benefits. An example i suppose of how big countries look after indirect benefits to such a large degree is when the UK lent Ireland a good bit of money there out of their own accord. They weren't forced to do so by the EU, but by keeping the irish economy going it gives the UK indirect benefits.

You have failed to name any of these indirect benefits we gain from the European Union, making the point moot.

The UK economy is heavily swayed towards financial services from what i hear. Unfortunately your economy (and ours) is not as diversified as France or Germanys is.

Keeping relations and trade strong and stable is a must.

Who exactly is arguing for the opposite of this? nobody has or would suggest otherwise, whether anti-EU or pro-EU.

[dbgtz]

Most benefits of the EU (in particular to large countries) are indirect, and hence why big eu countries like France, Germany and the UK invested in the EU to such an extent. I'm not too sure why you are asking me what are its indirect benefits as that's what the EU mostly is in regards to benefits. An example i suppose of how big countries look after indirect benefits to such a large degree is when the UK lent Ireland a good bit of money there out of their own accord. They weren't forced to do so by the EU, but by keeping the irish economy going it gives the UK indirect benefits from things like stability, exports, imports, services, relations, etc.

The UK economy is heavily swayed towards financial services from what i hear. Unfortunately your economy (and ours) is not as diversified as France or Germanys is. Keeping relations and trade strong and stable is a must.

I agree that assisting countries does bring some benefit, but surely we could just do that of our own accord without needing to be in the EU.

[Ajthedragon]

Surely the fact we weren't involved in the Merkozy talks shows that we had little power anyway. Hopefully one step closer to be out of it tbh.

Exactly. Our voices weren't heard and we had no choice.

What they proposed was good for the Germans and the French, but left us out of pocket. The damage done to businesses (finance especially) by the transactions tax would far outweigh thebenefits of EU membership.

Leave with dignity I say.

[GommeInc]

Leaving the EU = the worst possible thing for the UK right now

The EU is the worst possible thing for the UK and the EU in general, so we might as well begin cutting cords to stop the EU from eating away at itself. It's like a cancer these days. Besides, these pointless EU talks are costing the EU a lot and they are going no where. I'll be amazed if this pact actually amounts to anything. It's icing on a turd cake, the icing makes it look nice but you wouldn't want a slice.

The fact Sarkozy and Merkel are the one taking charge of these talks shows how undemocratic and angry the EU is as an organisation. Sarkozy is an angry little french man who loves a temper tantrum when nothing goes his way, and Merkel has more faces than the Slavic deity, Svetovid. I sure hope the talks that go on behind the scenes include other countries voicing their concerns, and not just these two clowns because at the moment it seems it's these two who are at the centre of the stage, and they're pretty thick as it is :/