House of Commons votes to allow Gay Marriage in England and Wales

[FlyingJesus]

Dan that last part is kinda like me saying that I don't agree with plastic spoons in yoghurts because to me spoons are stainless steel objects which are to be used for soup - if the premise is wrong (and yes, "opinions" can be wrong) then the conclusion is baseless

[-:Undertaker:-]

You can be gay and homophobic.

Firstly, I reject the use of the word 'homophobia' when its used as a word for those who dislike or have a hatred for gay people, however stupid those beliefs may be, because its simply intended to make it seem as though they have a mental condition - the kind of slur used in arguments when people debate global warming and are labelled 'deniers' like those who deny the holocaust. Or those labelled 'xenophobes' simply because they debate whether this country should remain in the EU. True homophobia, and the only time it should be seriously used, is an abnormal fear of homosexuals.

Secondly yes it is true, you can be gay and say that you dislike or even hate (stupidly) homosexuals. But I have never stated that or claimed that nor would I. So i'm struggling to see here how me stating that my personal view of marriage being between a man and a woman is 'homophobic' of me.

Dan that last part is kinda like me saying that I don't agree with plastic spoons in yoghurts because to me spoons are stainless steel objects which are to be used for soup - if the premise is wrong (and yes, "opinions" can be wrong) then the conclusion is baseless

Thats the way I see it, ultimately it ties in with my religious (and thus moral) beliefs too. Inherantly morality has to discriminate against somebody or something.

[FlyingJesus]

Yes but if one is to have logical morals there should be something more than "because" to it

[Stephen]

Would they like to step forward and engage on this topic?

Edited by MyOffDays (Trialist Forum Moderator): Please do not post pointlessly!

[Chippiewill]

Firstly, I reject the use of the word 'homophobia' when its used as a word for those who dislike or have a hatred for gay people, however stupid those beliefs may be, because its simply intended to make it seem as though they have a mental condition - the kind of slur used in arguments when people debate global warming and are labelled 'deniers' like those who deny the holocaust. Or those labelled 'xenophobes' simply because they debate whether this country should remain in the EU. True homophobia, and the only time it should be seriously used, is an abnormal fear of homosexuals.

Considering the meaning of words comes from their use in language rather than their formal derivation, homophobia describes any kind of negative or discriminatory attitude towards homosexuals. Now since a Civil partnership is not the same as Marriage, particularly in a symbolic sense, you clearly are therefore someone who does not thing that Homosexuals should be treated the same as heterosexuals - or in other words as equals. Which through the common use of the word homophobia makes you a homophobe.

Secondly yes it is true, you can be gay and say that you dislike or even hate (stupidly) homosexuals. But I have never stated that or claimed that nor would I.

I only mentioned it since I inferred the contrary from what you stated.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Considering the meaning of words comes from their use in language rather than their formal derivation, homophobia describes any kind of negative or discriminatory attitude towards homosexuals.

I know exactly in the contexts which the word is used and thats why i'm opposed to it, I think its a cheap slur thrown at people who either oppose homosexuality on rational grounds or morons who just hate gay people. If somebody for example simply hates gay people, don't try and label them as having a mental condition - simply call them out on their own flawed and stupid logic and make them look stupid.

Now since a Civil partnership is not the same as Marriage, particularly in a symbolic sense, you clearly are therefore someone who does not thing that Homosexuals should be treated the same as heterosexuals - or in other words as equals. Which through the common use of the word homophobia makes you a homophobe.

I have explained my legal + political stance on gay marriage so I won't go into it again (removing the state out of marriage completely) but I would say that on moral grounds, religious grounds and even health grounds - I don't consider homosexual relations as being 'equal' to hetrosexual ones (mainly on the basis that men and women compliment eachother and are designed to reproduce together) and I don't really see why anybody would reach such a conclusion.

It's the same with 'sexism' - pretending that men and women are equal when they are clearly not. Certainly you should treat people with respect and so on, but to pretend men and women who are different are exactly equal? it's ridiculous and I reject it.

[FlyingJesus]

I don't know of anyone who's claimed homophobia to be a mental illness. Ignorance is a sad thing but it isn't a mental health issue - there are simply names for certain forms of ignorance and bigotry, and why not when we can categorise everything else?

You also seem to be completely unaware of the difference between believing in full equality (which is daft as obviously different people have different skills and such) and equal treatment. I'm pretty sure not even the most staunch communist believes in the former, yet you seem to think that everyone under the sky except for UKIP hold such views

[-:Undertaker:-]

I don't know of anyone who's claimed homophobia to be a mental illness. Ignorance is a sad thing but it isn't a mental health issue - there are simply names for certain forms of ignorance and bigotry, and why not when we can categorise everything else?

It implies that everybody who opposes or has a moral issue with homosexuality is irrational mentally. If you disagree with somebody over it, then have a rational debate over it - rather than sinking to words which are only intended and designed to imply that the opposition has an irrational viewpoint concerning homosexuality.

If I think somebody is being irrational - I say it. I don't cower behind slur words, ie i'm not keen on the 'Europhile' label for EU supporters either.

You also seem to be completely unaware of the difference between believing in full equality (which is daft as obviously different people have different skills and such) and equal treatment.

I am aware. But even with treatment I don't believe in equality. I treat women differently myself, so small things for example like i'll hold the door open for them for longer than I would with a man, or i'll be softer when i'm talking to them.

Men and women are different, just as I don't pretend homosexual and hetrosexual relationships are the same either.

I'm pretty sure not even the most staunch communist believes in the former, yet you seem to think that everyone under the sky except for UKIP hold such views

Nothing to do with UKIP. I'm arguing here from my moral perspective, not party politics.

[FlyingJesus]

When your morals consist of "I believe this because I do" that is irrational. If procreation is your argument, let's also ban birth control and force anyone who's infertile to remain celibate and single forever. If Biblical sin is your argument, note that the highest authority of Rabbi scholars agreed unanimously that homosexual relationships are actually preferable to the banning of such due to the infringements on other aspects of life (love, happiness, fulfillment etc) that arise from doing so - and note that these people actually live by Levitican law, while Christians are explicitly supposed not to do so. The word "morals" by itself is not an argument

[AgnesIO]

Not sure why the state has to decide on this (if it was an issue where it was previously illegal, why spend weeks in the Commons arguing over it?) Let the religions and individual people decide.

Personally though, I think a marriage - like @-:Undertaker:- is between a man and a woman, but there we go.