What people are underpaid/overpaid?

[Eoin247]

This is my point, by making an exception for students with mental disabilities, not only will you have to come up with the many thousands of different scenarios needed for each individual case, you'll probably push teachers more towards teaching classes that have more exceptions so they can get better pay.

Maybe I'll reword my different question then... How would you decide who a crap teacher was then?

Student with mental disabilities can improve. Just not to the same extent as other students, so with a different scale teachers wouldn't be pushed to these classes. There wouldn't be thousands of different scenarios that require individual attention. All students with mental disabilities of any type go through tests anyway. These test results (which are already availible) can be used to judge what can be expected from them more or less.

It wouldn't be based on just one class anyway i'd imagine. Repeated success/failure during the year and years would judge how good of a teacher they are.

[FlyingJesus]

Just gonna mention that grades are not the only mark of a good teacher - in my eyes, not even the most important. A good teacher, especially at high school level, should be not just giving you the facts needed to pass a test but coaching you on how to learn things by yourself and be passionate about your own education. Students don't have to be all Oh Captain My Captain about them certainly in my experience what has made the best teachers is students having respect for them and wanting to do well themselves, not someone who forces droll working conditions for the sake of an end paper

[Kardan]

Student with mental disabilities can improve. Just not to the same extent as other students, so with a different scale teachers wouldn't be pushed to these classes. There wouldn't be thousands of different scenarios that require individual attention. All students with mental disabilities of any type go through tests anyway. These test results (which are already availible) can be used to judge what can be expected from them more or less.

It wouldn't be based on just one class anyway i'd imagine. Repeated success/failure during the year and years would judge how good of a teacher they are.

So you reckon that all classes that have students with disabilities should have a single 'disability' scale, and non-disabled students would have a 'non disabled' scale... So you'd have 2?

It's pretty clear that you can't group every child with a disability under the same scale, hence why I say there are many many possibilities.

Would a teacher teaching a class of 13 dyslexic children be treated the same as a teacher teaching 3 blind children? Or what about someone teaching a single behaviourally disabled child? Each case is different, and there's too many for any fair system to be developed.

And as stated many times, grades aren't the only thing to determining a good/bad teacher, so it's very possible for a good teacher to get a poor set of results and a bad teacher to fluke into a set of good results.

[Eoin247]

So you reckon that all classes that have students with disabilities should have a single 'disability' scale, and non-disabled students would have a 'non disabled' scale... So you'd have 2?

It's pretty clear that you can't group every child with a disability under the same scale, hence why I say there are many many possibilities.

Would a teacher teaching a class of 13 dyslexic children be treated the same as a teacher teaching 3 blind children? Or what about someone teaching a single behaviourally disabled child? Each case is different, and there's too many for any fair system to be developed.

No, and I answered this point in my last post: ''All students with mental disabilities of any type go through tests anyway. These test results (which are already availible) can be used to judge what can be expected from them more or less.''

Of course each case is different as is every single thing in life, but you don't need to have a thousand different situations individually inspected. If that were the case then it would be impossible to tax people (which is many multiple times more complicated).

I tried to avoid doing this. But I'll give a very basic idea of what the system would be like off the top of my head.

-A log type graph would be made for normal classes and students based off national statistics (readily available).

-Students with mental disabilities are already tested (again readily available numbers)to determine the severity of their problem. Lets say for example there's a scale of 1-100 with regards to the problem's severity (1 being perhaps slightly dyslexic with 100 being the worst). You would not expect as much off a person with a disability at a level of 50 as you would with a level 25.

- These numbers are added up in a class (i.e one 20 level and two 40 levels makes the total for the class 100). Overall class expectations are made based on those figures.

And as stated many times, grades aren't the only thing to determining a good/bad teacher, so it's very possible for a good teacher to get a poor set of results and a bad teacher to fluke into a set of good results.

Again i answered this in my last post :S ''It wouldn't be based on just one class anyway i'd imagine. Repeated success/failure during the year and years would judge how good of a teacher they are.''

[FlyingJesus]

So you'd need tests to test which tests to test them for

[BreakfastBacon]

underpaid

firemen/police/army soldiers they save people every day and guess who gets tonnes more money?

OVERPAID

Basketball players/ football or soccer players

wut? you get paid more to kick or push a ball around and in the case of soccer players scream on the floor if your toe gets slightly brushed against by a sponge.

this really doesn't make sense for me at all.

[Kardan]

No, and I answered this point in my last post: ''All students with mental disabilities of any type go through tests anyway. These test results (which are already availible) can be used to judge what can be expected from them more or less.''

Of course each case is different as is every single thing in life, but you don't need to have a thousand different situations individually inspected. If that were the case then it would be impossible to tax people (which is many multiple times more complicated).

I tried to avoid doing this. But I'll give a very basic idea of what the system would be like off the top of my head.

-A log type graph would be made for normal classes and students based off national statistics (readily available).

-Students with mental disabilities are already tested (again readily available numbers)to determine the severity of their problem. Lets say for example there's a scale of 1-100 with regards to the problem's severity (1 being perhaps slightly dyslexic with 100 being the worst). You would not expect as much off a person with a disability at a level of 50 as you would with a level 25.

- These numbers are added up in a class (i.e one 20 level and two 40 levels makes the total for the class 100). Overall class expectations are made based on those figures.




Again i answered this in my last post :S ''It wouldn't be based on just one class anyway i'd imagine. Repeated success/failure during the year and years would judge how good of a teacher they are.''

Then how do you judge how much to give a teacher that takes a dyslexic class of a score of 700 from a F to a E, or a teacher that takes blind children of 225 from a U to a F. Where do you pull in the numbers for how much to give teachers?

Can't you see how immensely complicated this is?

First you need to judge the disability of an entire class, then you need to consider how badly the disability will impact on performance and improvement, then you need to actually observe how much improvement there was, then you need to come up with a scale to give bonus pay based on how much improvement there is, and then you need to take into account bad streaks and good streaks before you actually give out bonus pay.

Then cue all the teachers going on strike because the government messed up somewhere along the lines.

[oli]

underpaid

firemen/police/army soldiers they save people every day and guess who gets tonnes more money?

OVERPAID

Basketball players/ football or soccer players

wut? you get paid more to kick or push a ball around and in the case of soccer players scream on the floor if your toe gets slightly brushed against by a sponge.

this really doesn't make sense for me at all.

The difference between the private sector and the public sector.

[Eoin247]

So you'd need tests to test which tests to test them for

Care to explain?

Then how do you judge how much to give a teacher that takes a dyslexic class of a score of 700 from a F to a E, or a teacher that takes blind children of 225 from a U to a F. Where do you pull in the numbers for how much to give teachers?

Can't you see how immensely complicated this is?

I hope i don't sound rude when i say this but I honestly cannot see how you find that complicated? I've done mathematical modeling projects for real life situations that were far more complicated than this and i did them successfully back when i was only 17 and hadn't even finished secondary school yet.

First you need to judge the disability of an entire class, then you need to consider how badly the disability will impact on performance and improvement, then you need to actually observe how much improvement there was, then you need to come up with a scale to give bonus pay based on how much improvement there is, and then you need to take into account bad streaks and good streaks before you actually give out bonus pay.

The first bit sounds fine and simple enough to implement. Not too sure what you mean by the bit in bold though.

Then cue all the teachers going on strike because the government messed up somewhere along the lines.

That's why i said in my first post that the unions wont condone it. Reason? A hell of a lot of teachers now have to try harder.

[FlyingJesus]

Care to explain?

Children - scratch that, PEOPLE - are different not only in ability but also learning style, attention to detail, willingness to co-operate, desire to learn, respect for authority, personal issues, and a whole range of everything else that affects ones learning. To properly gauge a teacher's influence on a class you'd need to know everything about every student as well as having close monitoring of the classroom at all times, which is clearly absurd. Otherwise it's a system of estimates and misinformation which through clerical error or simply pupil disobedience could mean the difference between a teacher being able to support their family or not. It's a highly unnecessary idea with no real bonuses to it since it would cost astronomical amounts more to properly implement it than to continue as things are (or even give teachers a raise nationally) as well as making the teaching profession an extremely risky career that relies on the clientele (ie pupils) rather than the actual abilities of the teacher.

In short, it's ******* stupid.