Nelson Mandela dies aged 95

[-:Undertaker:-]

You keep saying that Mandela targeted innocent people but you have yet to provide proof for these claims, post some and I will actually be able to respond... And could you highlight which part of my posts endorse the murder of innocent people? Because I don't remember writing that and it sounds like a cheap shot and a poor debating tactic.

You have thus far refused to say that you agree with me on the principle that targeting innocent people to achieve political aims is wrong and unforgivable - instead you wittered on about the Northern Irish having a vote whereas the South Africans didn't to which I provided the counter examples of Gandi + British India and the Soviets vs the Tsarist forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe#Bombings

Again, why are you arguing this when you are seemingly unaware of the activities of the organisation he headed? The part of the page I linked to contains information on the bombings, as does the entire Wikipedia page. This is all without even going into the necklacing that Winnie Mandela endorsed along with the executions (without trial) that took place in ANC bases against both blacks and whites.

Did Mandela's party even kill civilians when he was out of jail? All I've read about is 'Sabotage', like burning crops etc.

Absolutely, and as the link states - it was active from 1961 to 1990 and the TRC found that -

...torture was "routine" and was official policy – as were executions "without due process" at ANC detention camps particularly in the period of 1979–1989

[The Don]

You have thus far refused to say that you agree with me on the principle that targeting innocent people to achieve political aims is wrong and unforgivable - instead you wittered on about the Northern Irish having a vote whereas the South Africans didn't to which I provided the counter examples of Gandi + British India and the Soviets vs the Tsarist forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe#Bombings

Again, why are you arguing this when you are seemingly unaware of the activities of the organisation he headed? The part of the page I linked to contains information on the bombings, as does the entire Wikipedia page. This is all without even going into the necklacing that Winnie Mandela endorsed along with the executions (without trial) that took place in ANC bases against both blacks and whites.



Absolutely, and as the link states - it was active from 1961 to 1990 and the TRC found that -

So failing to state one's own opinion is the same as endorsing one? Another gaping hole in your logic there, Dan. Both your examples are rubbish, Why are you using examples when you are seemingly unaware of the events that happened in them? No innocent people were murdered in the Russian Revolution? Are you forgetting about the murder of the entire Tsar Royal family? The Purges of the Red Army by Stalin? The Millions of people sent to the Gulags? The Eradication of the Kulaks? The Bolsheviks death count is almost endless, Maybe you should pick better comparisons in the future....

The Page which you linked seems to suggest their military campaign was against the government and military? Other than a few isolated incidents which contain no evidence to suggest Mandela had any part in... I'm sure if we compared the death toll from the Soweto Uprising (where the South African Government massacred school children) as well as the various other massacres perpetrated by the Government, I'm sure the death toll from the ANC would frail in comparison.

[Kardan]

You have thus far refused to say that you agree with me on the principle that targeting innocent people to achieve political aims is wrong and unforgivable - instead you wittered on about the Northern Irish having a vote whereas the South Africans didn't to which I provided the counter examples of Gandi + British India and the Soviets vs the Tsarist forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe#Bombings

Again, why are you arguing this when you are seemingly unaware of the activities of the organisation he headed? The part of the page I linked to contains information on the bombings, as does the entire Wikipedia page. This is all without even going into the necklacing that Winnie Mandela endorsed along with the executions (without trial) that took place in ANC bases against both blacks and whites.



Absolutely, and as the link states - it was active from 1961 to 1990 and the TRC found that -

All the bombings stated on that link were after Mandela was jailed.

[GommeInc]

I'm not so sure Maybe the Queen...

I'd actually laugh, that's no joke Seeing how mentally unstable he is it will probably be completely random and involve a string of weird events, if not - an overdose or some sort of STI/STD gone septic.

As for the topic. He lived quite a full life. But seeing as he was a terrorist at one stage in his life it seems a bit strange to consider him a saint, a "shining star" in the world. I can only conclude with the quote "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter," because that's he was.

[Daltron]

RIP.

[-:Undertaker:-]

So failing to state one's own opinion is the same as endorsing one? Another gaping hole in your logic there, Dan. Both your examples are rubbish, Why are you using examples when you are seemingly unaware of the events that happened in them? No innocent people were murdered in the Russian Revolution? Are you forgetting about the murder of the entire Tsar Royal family? The Purges of the Red Army by Stalin? The Millions of people sent to the Gulags? The Eradication of the Kulaks? The Bolsheviks death count is almost endless, Maybe you should pick better comparisons in the future....

Oh my lord, are you serious? when I say the Russian Revolution, i'm talking about the revolution itself not the aftermath - do keep up. To bring down the Tsarist regime, did the red forces and public feel the need to set off bombs in public places to simply terrorise the population? No, they did not - the only terror acts that took place were those against the Tsar himself (numerous attempts on his life) and finally attacks on Imperial forces who were protecting the palaces and government installations.

And state your opinion instead of skirting around the bloody issue. Is it or is it not right to target innocent people in bombings to bring about a political objective? Yes or no.

The Page which you linked seems to suggest their military campaign was against the government and military? Other than a few isolated incidents which contain no evidence to suggest Mandela had any part in...

Had no part in? are you out of your mind!? the man was the co-founder and one of the main leaders of the armed group. Listen to yourself, you're talking complete garbage and won't even give a straight answer to me on whether or not it is right to target innocent people for political aims.

I can give an answer - no, it's never acceptable.

I'm sure if we compared the death toll from the Soweto Uprising (where the South African Government massacred school children) as well as the various other massacres perpetrated by the Government, I'm sure the death toll from the ANC would frail in comparison.

Who said the South African regime was any better? I certainly didn't, indeed I have labelled the South African 'Government' a regime in this thread because I can see that the ANC and SAG are no much better than one another. I can firmly say that just as I can say that, even as a Unionist, the IRA and UVF are no better than one another.

You seemingly can't make that judgement as you don't want to tarnish Saint Mandela.

All the bombings stated on that link were after Mandela was jailed.

And? Do you really think he had no links to the group when in jail seeing as he was the leader and co-founder of the group? But anyway, he admitted in his trial to signing off on terror acts -

http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things...elson-mandela/

He signed off on the deaths of innocent people, lots of them

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists. Here are some highlights

-Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983

-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985

-Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988

-Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986

-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 – limpet mine killed ANC terrorist M O Maponya instead

-Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987

-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988

Tellingly, not only did Mandela refuse to renounce violence, Amnesty refused to take his case stating “[the] movement recorded that it could not give the name of ‘Prisoner of Conscience’ to anyone associated with violence, even though as in ‘conventional warfare’ a degree of restraint may be exercised.”

How much evidence (from him supporting the IRA which waged a war of terror against the peoples of these islands, to his wife placing people in tyres and setting them alight) does it take for people to drop the worship of this man?

The truth is only a click away on the internet yet even when it's being presented, people still don't want to hear it because it's completely counter to what they've been brainwashed into believing since primary school. I luckily knew the other side of the ANC and Mandela early on thanks to my family who used to live in South Africa.

[Kardan]

Loads of text...

And? Do you really think he had no links to the group when in jail seeing as he was the leader and co-founder of the group? But anyway, he admitted in his trial to signing off on terror acts -

http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things...elson-mandela/



How much evidence (from him supporting the IRA which waged a war of terror against the peoples of these islands, to his wife placing people in tyres and setting them alight) does it take for people to drop the worship of this man?

The truth is only a click away on the internet yet even when it's being presented, people still don't want to hear it because it's completely counter to what they've been brainwashed into believing since primary school. I luckily knew the other side of the ANC and Mandela early on thanks to my family who used to live in South Africa.

As I've said, I don't deny that. He signed off on terror acts in HIS TRIAL (In the 60's), but did any of those, before he went into jail, actually kill anyone? I've already said that I'm aware of the attacks his group carried out when he was in jail - and they killed many people.

[-:Undertaker:-]

As I've said, I don't deny that. He signed off on terror acts in HIS TRIAL (In the 60's), but did any of those, before he went into jail, actually kill anyone? I've already said that I'm aware of the attacks his group carried out when he was in jail - and they killed many people.

He wasn't put into prison originally for terror acts as far as i'm aware. At least not those.

Besides, why does that matter? He ordered (from prison) bombs to go off to murder innocent people. When he ordered them or whether it was inside or outside of prison is as relevant as what Gerry Adams was having for tea the night he ordered bombs to go off in Northern Ireland.

According to Wikipedia the charges in the 1960's trial were;

- recruiting persons for training in the preparation and use of explosives and in guerrilla warfare for the purpose of violent revolution and committing acts of sabotage
- conspiring to commit the aforementioned acts and to aid foreign military units when they invaded the Republic,
- acting in these ways to further the objects of communism
- soliciting and receiving money for these purposes from sympathizers in Algeria, Ethiopia, Liberia, Nigeria, Tunisia, and elsewhere.

[Kardan]

He wasn't put into prison originally for terror acts as far as i'm aware. At least not those.

Besides, why does that matter? He ordered (from prison) bombs to go off to murder innocent people. When he ordered them or whether it was inside or outside of prison is as relevant as what Gerry Adams was having for tea the night he ordered bombs to go off in Northern Ireland.

According to Wikipedia the charges in the 1960's trial were;

Can I see some quotes from Mandela saying he told people to carry out the acts whilst he was in prison?

It's may also be worth noting that the initial trial may not have been the fairest trial in the world, considering the government was heavily racist.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Can I see some quotes from Mandela saying he told people to carry out the acts whilst he was in prison?

It's may also be worth noting that the initial trial may not have been the fairest trial in the world, considering the government was heavily racist.

Er what? He refused to renounce violence when the President promised to release him upon doing so. How can he be directly quoted when he wasn't all that well known back then when people didn't fawn over his words?

Even the TRC after apartheid fell investigated the crimes of the ANC and it's terrorism.

You just don't want all this to be true so everytime I post the evidence on this man you just move the goalposts.