Gender-based abortions: right or wrong?

[Wengles]

I'm of the mind that it's not the right of men to make decisions on something so physically personal to a woman. So while my opinion coming next is an opinion. I don't see any reason why it should be given any credence what so ever. And I certainly don't believe that governments that are overwhelmingly dominated by men should have the right to do so either.

I find it very difficult to justify any kind of abortion. Let alone gender based abortion. As soon as an egg is fertilised, I myself have to consider that an unborn child. I find no moral good in the needless termination of unborn children. BUT, having said that nature often does the work for us. It's pretty good at knowing when the body doesn't like something. For the purposes of this argument let's assume that the majority of pregnancies result in a birth. Which, at least in most developed nations that is the case.I couldn't in good graces allow myself to remove logic from my mind; in assuming that disallowing a fertilised egg to develop, no matter the stage of its development is not the death of an unborn child. This applies to natural abortion as well as forced. It's fundamentally wrong to me.

I've heard all of the arguments and I just have to sit and look at the facts of it; because the rape argument is no solace for me. The disability argument, is no solace for me. And more important to this topic the gender argument isn't solace to me either. I couldn't possibly (given that I was a female) not allow a unborn child the experience of life. But that's because I believe there's life and death and that's where it ends. Usually you hear this pro life argument from the heavily religious but I would argue it has to be more important to non believers. To disallow a child to experience life is nothing I could get behind.

But! My first paragraph considered, it isn't my decision make, it isn't for people of my sex to decide and so as I said, I really shouldn't be given any credence.

[Succubus]

I've heard all of the arguments and I just have to sit and look at the facts of it; because the rape argument is no solace for me.

So lets say a fifteen year old girl was raped she should keep the baby just so the baby can experience 'life'. The girl is probably not financially capable of looking after the baby, let alone she'll probably struggle in school because she has a baby to look after (I'm aware you can get baby sitters but that costs time, effort and money). So you'd rather let a girls mental, and probably physical health, deteriorate just because you want a baby to experience 'life'?

[Wengles]

So lets say a fifteen year old girl was raped she should keep the baby just so the baby can experience 'life'. The girl is probably not financially capable of looking after the baby, let alone she'll probably struggle in school because she has a baby to look after (I'm aware you can get baby sitters but that costs time, effort and money). So you'd rather let a girls mental, and probably physical health, deteriorate just because you want a baby to experience 'life'?

Very good rebuttal. I would give you the answer of; there is plenty support (at least in the UK) for young mums. There are options for mothers to then decide not to keep their children; and then allow social services to do their job. My answer to your last question would be; yes. I would rather a child experience life - Than have no chance of development; no chance of growth; no chance of existence in this world. The child didn't choose the way it was conceived. So does that mean it deserves no chance of existing? I couldn't in good conscience say yes. It seems a cruel punishment to me.

[Succubus]

Very good rebuttal. I would give you the answer of; there is plenty support (at least in the UK) for young mums. There are options for mothers to then decide not to keep their children; and then allow social services to do their job. My answer to your last question would be; yes. I would rather a child experience life - Than have no chance of development; no chance of growth; no chance of existence in this world. The child didn't choose the way it was conceived. So does that mean it deserves no chance of existing? I couldn't in good conscience say yes. It seems a cruel punishment to me.

I understand there is support, but it doesn't cut out the factors of the mothers mental health. Being raped itself is a traumatic event, adding someone else's life to cater for after that is just stressful.

I also understand that you'd want the baby to experience life, but would it be fair for the baby to grow up in a place where the mother is, potentially, struggling with school work, money etc. And I see your argument of not keeping the baby (so basically suggesting adoption) but is being in an adoption centre for a long time, or any time at all, fair quality of life? What about if the child (suggesting that she didn't abort and gave it away) wanted to see the mum and dad?

[karter]

I just have to sit and look at the facts of it; because the rape argument is no solace for me.

*REMOVED*

Edted by Dilusionate (Acting Forum Super Moderator): Please do not be rude, thanks!

[Wengles]

I understand there is support, but it doesn't cut out the factors of the mothers mental health. Being raped itself is a traumatic event, adding someone else's life to cater for after that is just stressful.

I also understand that you'd want the baby to experience life, but would it be fair for the baby to grow up in a place where the mother is, potentially, struggling with school work, money etc. And I see your argument of not keeping the baby (so basically suggesting adoption) but is being in an adoption centre for a long time, or any time at all, fair quality of life? What about if the child (suggesting that she didn't abort and gave it away) wanted to see the mum and dad?

It is an intolerable event that no one can understand unless they've dealt with it. Or at first hand been affected by it. I concede that. My only point is; an abortion as a result of rape - I can only see as a punishment to a child given no decision as to how it's conceived or born.

An arguable unfair quality of life, is better than no life at all in my view. But as I said in my argument; this is coming form someone who believes that there is life and death. There is no after or before. Stealing life from a child that had no say its conception is something I can't agree with. I an empathise as much as I can but I will never be able to sympathise.

[Succubus]

It is an intolerable event that no one can understand unless they've dealt with it. Or at first hand been affected by it. I concede that. My only point is; an abortion as a result of rape - I can only see as a punishment to a child given no decision as to how it's conceived or born.

An arguable unfair quality of life, is better than no life at all in my view. But as I said in my argument; this is coming form someone who believes that there is life and death. There is no after or before. Stealing life from a child that had no say its conception is something I can't agree with. I an empathise as much as I can but I will never be able to sympathise.

Not all victims of rape speak up, so how will the victim explain to their parent(s) that they are pregnant, and she'll probably be ****-shamed by many for something she had no control over. So yeah, lets add a baby on top of that just to make things worse.

But people aren't 'stealing life', they are trying to prevent something they aren't prepared for.

There are many reasons why I believe that a woman should be able to abort, and not only just because it's her own body (which is by one of the most important things to remember). Giving up a baby can just be as emotionally damaging as having an abortion. It's disgusting for a person to be raped in the first place but to have their emotional state to be ruined even more because they have to make a decision like that is horrible.

[Empired]

It is an intolerable event that no one can understand unless they've dealt with it. Or at first hand been affected by it. I concede that. My only point is; an abortion as a result of rape - I can only see as a punishment to a child given no decision as to how it's conceived or born.

An arguable unfair quality of life, is better than no life at all in my view. But as I said in my argument; this is coming form someone who believes that there is life and death. There is no after or before. Stealing life from a child that had no say its conception is something I can't agree with. I an empathise as much as I can but I will never be able to sympathise.

I struggle to see how an unborn child should have the same rights as a born one. I saw this on tumblr ages ago:

I’m holding a baby in one hand and a petri dish holding a fetus in the other.I’m going to drop one. You chose which.
If you really truly believe a fetus is the same thing as a baby, it should be impossible for you to decide. You should have to flip a coin, that’s how impossible the decision should be.
Shot in the dark, you saved the baby.

Are you really saying you have to stop and think about which one to drop?

[Wengles]

Not all victims of rape speak up, so how will the victim explain to their parent(s) that they are pregnant, and she'll probably be ****-shamed by many for something she had no control over. So yeah, lets add a baby on top of that just to make things worse.

But people aren't 'stealing life', they are trying to prevent something they aren't prepared for.

There are many reasons why I believe that a woman should be able to abort, and not only just because it's her own body (which is by one of the most important things to remember). Giving up a baby can just be as emotionally damaging as having an abortion. It's disgusting for a person to be raped in the first place but to have their emotional state to be ruined even more because they have to make a decision like that is horrible.

And that's perfectly fine. If that's what you want to do. I can't rationalise it. Like I said, I've had no experience, and will never be in that situation. So I can only attempt to put myself in that situation. I cannot relinquish myself of logic to accommodate an act that isn't logical.

But my point unfortunately stands. You haven't diluted it... Um. Trying to prevent something they aren't prepared for is irrelevant to whether a life has been taken or not allowed to happen in this case. Again, I can't find any logic in something that to me seems like a punishment to an innocent party.

I'll ask you, because assuming you're female perhaps you can answer the question better than I can and you've presented it and I think it's a good point. Would you rather the child never had the opportunity to live, than have to give it away because you're unprepared? It seems like an impossible question but perhaps you can find solace in one rather than the other.

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I struggle to see how an unborn child should have the same rights as a born one. I saw this on tumblr ages ago:



Are you really saying you have to stop and think about which one to drop?[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

That quote is kind of irrelevant to the point I'm making though. I'm not debating whether a fetus is the same as a baby here. That's not my point at all. The answer relevant to this discussion would be that I wouldn't drop either of them.

Your other point about rights is that nature doesn't deal in human rights. It doesn't exist. So in point of fact you're right. Otherwise there would be no stillborn babies. I'm simply trying to (though I concede perhaps not doing so well) question the morality of disallowing a child to live based on the way they were conceived. I couldn't in good conscience do that. But again; as I've said before I can only TRY and put myself in these positions. I will never be in it; and I won't feel any of the emotions that a young woman would have to feel when making this decision.

Which is why I conceded on my first paragraph on my first post, that our sex can simply not be given any credence in this discussion. And we certainly shouldn't be making decisions about something so physically and mentally personal to women. It isn't right.

[Succubus]

I'll ask you, because assuming you're female perhaps you can answer the question better than I can and you've presented it and I think it's a good point. Would you rather the child never had the opportunity to live, than have to give it away because you're unprepared? It seems like an impossible question but perhaps you can find solace in one rather than the other.

To your question I'd rather the foetus be aborted than give it away. Yes, aborting/giving away the child is both emotionally damaging but I wouldn't want to have a person, convinced by me, in someone else's care because I couldn't cater and they will probably spend some of their life questioning why it happened. But I find it odd putting me on the spot since I'm merely defending the fact that I'm pro-choice, it doesn't mean I'd personally abort myself (I don't even want kids lmao). I think it really depends on:
a) the situation
b) the carrier's feelings (since it's their body)
c) their ability to cater etc