The truths you can't tell in today's Britain

[Inseriousity.]

Community cohesion is something you support. If that community cohesion leads to deviant acts amongst a small minority, the general concept is something that you are in favour of. Of course, I'm not really convincing myself of anything. Liddle failed to do it in his article so offering some explanation of your own as to how the culture of this community increases the risk of voter fraud.

[-:Undertaker:-]

No twisting.

http://www.habboxforum.com/showthrea...86#post8042886

Fair enough, I wrongly branished via bad typing all of the Romanians here criminals when that's obviously wrong and I take that back. +rep

Community cohesion is something you support. If that community cohesion leads to deviant acts amongst a small minority, the general concept is something that you are in favour of. Of course, I'm not really convincing myself of anything. Liddle failed to do it in his article so offering some explanation of your own as to how the culture of this community increases the risk of voter fraud.

Not sure really where you got this idea from seeing as i'm against multiculturalism and for the rule of law. Indeed if anything, doesn't (provided you are correct in what you assumed) this show the need for an end to multiculturalism and the need for full-scale integration of migrants which would lead to genuine community cohesion amongst the population and adherance to the rule of law of this land? I think so.

[The Don]

I'd certainly suggest the large majority of muslims are intolerant towards homosexuality, yeah.

Being intolerant isn't an issue unless people act on it, in fact, I personally think some of your opinions are fairly intolerant. People having a different opinion doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed into the country.

In terms of violence, not that all or most support violence no - but there's certainly a large school of thought in Islam which does support public acts of violence such as the issuing of Fatwas, public whippings, public displays of punishment and so on.

So you're agreeing that most muslims don't support violence which would suggest that perhaps it's not a problem with the religion, more so the fact that the religion is popular in predominantly third world countries where there tends to be more violence anyway.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Being intolerant isn't an issue unless people act on it, in fact, I personally think some of your opinions are fairly intolerant. People having a different opinion doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed into the country.

That'd be fine if everybody was a libertarian like me who may hold controversial personal views but who wouldn't ever dream of enforcing his or her moral standards on everybody else. But not everybody is like that, and libertarianism/classical liberalism is an alien concept to the Islamic world as well as much of the rest of the world. It's very much an anglosphere/Dutch/North-western Europe concept that has come from English Liberty.

And I do not want those values threatened or overturned.

So you're agreeing that most muslims don't support violence which would suggest that perhaps it's not a problem with the religion, more so the fact that the religion is popular in predominantly third world countries where there tends to be more violence anyway.

I'd argue that religion (including Islam) limits violence in the third world rather than encourages it - which is why it always makes me laugh when people somehow think I loathe Islam. I like Islam as a moral force for good, just I do not like certain parts of it.

[Ardemax]

Loads of atheists laugh at religion. I meant literally like a nosey neighbour, not sit on the fence in a deciding sense, which would make them agnostic

Didn't say they were but I'd also disagree. There are many denominations to Islam. Completely blanketing Islam would be pretty stupid, as some are more liberal than others.

Yeah that's what I meant - I mean there's not many atheists who don't bash religion and in some instances it is more annoying than religious debate.

Of course there are more liberal thinkers in Islam than people may at first assume, but I think we're kidding ourselves if we believe they even represent 1% of Islam. I don't wish to sound all Daily-Mail on here but I certainly wouldn't describe Islam as a 'liberal' and 'forward-thinking' religion (perhaps that is harsh, I think I'm more referring to the countries which adopt Islam as the state religion and what-not).

[The Don]

That'd be fine if everybody was a libertarian like me who may hold controversial personal views but who wouldn't ever dream of enforcing his or her moral standards on everybody else. But not everybody is like that, and libertarianism/classical liberalism is an alien concept to the Islamic world as well as much of the rest of the world. It's very much an anglosphere/Dutch/North-western Europe concept that has come from English Liberty.

And I do not want those values threatened or overturned.

But what about the ones that are tolerant? Why not deal with things on an individual basis rather than treating nearly 2 billion people identically?

I'd argue that religion (including Islam) limits violence in the third world rather than encourages it - which is why it always makes me laugh when people somehow think I loathe Islam. I like Islam as a moral force for good, just I do not like certain parts of it.

I agree. This would suggest that a problem lies with the countries more so than Islam. This is also a reason why many Muslims are emigrating to Western countries.

[-:Undertaker:-]

But what about the ones that are tolerant? Why not deal with things on an individual basis rather than treating nearly 2 billion people identically?

Then there's nothing wrong with the ones that are tolerant. If a muslim - or anybody - wants to come here, accepts this is a Christian country with Christian values and untouchable values such as English Liberty then fine, I haven't a problem. It's when we allow groups in who want to start changing our culture and laws to suit themselves, that's when I have a problem and that's why I am wary of mass immigration - especially mass immigration from Islamic countries which are so different in their culture to our own.

I agree. This would suggest that a problem lies with the countries more so than Islam. This is also a reason why many Muslims are emigrating to Western countries.

I agree. But that's not to say that Islam doesn't have deep and serious issues that other religions do not have on the same scale. That's all i'm getting at. Most of the wars in the Middle East for example - and which I always repeat on here and elsewhere - are caused by badly drawn borders over different religious and tribal groups. The Middle East would be a thousand times better and more peaceful if those borders were redrawn properly and it would starve the radicals of much support in those countries and war zones - especially in the Iraqi, Syrian and Saudi zones.

[Inseriousity.]

So bizarre. In one post calling for a full-scale integration then in the next saying you wouldn't impose your own moral standards on anyone else. There's hypocrisy here. Everyone needs to conform to some white British ideal or it's not a 'genuine' community cohesion. What rubbish. No community is crime-free, not one.

[-:Undertaker:-]

So bizarre. In one post calling for a full-scale integration then in the next saying you wouldn't impose your own moral standards on anyone else. There's hypocrisy here. Everyone needs to conform to some white British ideal or it's not a 'genuine' community cohesion. What rubbish. No community is crime-free, not one.

I wouldn't impose my own moral standards such as my views on sexual morality on anybody else because that's in the western liberal and present British cultural tradition - there's no place in the law for views on say homosexuality if you ask me. If you invite somebody over from the Middle East without any effort of having them integrate, then they'll still hold Middle Eastern values and outlooks on sexual morality where they DO think that the state should have a say in sexuality morality/homosexuality. See the problem arising? Do we want that problem to arise? If not, then newcomers should be encouraged and have to integrate with the host country & culture.

Not everybody who comes to a country will share the same views, not everybody who lives in a country shares the same views. BUT there are certain cultural outlooks and cultural traits that we all share and which newcomers should share which make us a nation. Language, accents, clothing, our food, our drink culture, English liberty and so on and so forth. Without those, we cease to be a nation.

[Inseriousity.]

Language yes. Accents, err yeah that's just dumb. "Sorry mate, can't speak with that Indian accent, please speak Brummie or Cockney or Scouser or Geordie etc." Clothing, to a certain extent although I would say that this would be imposing moral authority especially if said item of clothing has any religious significance (a crucifix or a hijab), our food and drink is surely enhanced with the input of the different cultures (chinese, italian, indian etc), English liberty yes.

I suppose that's the problem with trying to impose one culture. What defines that culture would vary from person to person.