Immigration now just one point behind the economy as most important issue facing UK

[-:Undertaker:-]

I'm saying that's a possibility, yes.

Then you understand nothing of world diplomacy or world trade. But let's say your paranoid little fantasy is real and happens - that the EU says no to a FTA with the UK and erects tariff barriers. What could the UK do in return? Well, as a result of leaving the EU we would have our seat on the World Trade Organisation (WTO) back and we could either force the EU to lower it's tariff barriers or make it harder for EU goods to trade freely - especially in the services sector which the UK dominates above all other countries.

Then there's this - let's assume again that this fantasy turns out to be real. Have you no self-respect or no national pride? If the EU responds to the will of the British people to govern themselves by erecting tariff barriers then so what? How can you be so spineless and how can it come to such a low point where you have such little backbone that you want to be held to ransom and blackmailed by a group of non-entities in the EU Commission? IF such a situation arose (which the economics say wouldn't) then screw em.

I wouldn't have China armtwisting the UK into making certain laws by trade threats and nor would I accept it from the EU.

Saying something with conviction doesn't make it true and I find it laughable that you think the EU would let the UK leave and keep all the benefits of being in it which would open the floodgates with other countries following after.

You mean like non-EU Switzerland, Norway, Chile, Mexico and other countries which aren't in the EU but which enjoy free trade (along with many other benefits of co-operation) with the EU?

I find you laughable that you seem to think that there's no life outside of the EU. Bunker mentality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...ade_agreements

I also don't need to debunk an argument which is nothing more than an opinion based on pure speculation although I am more inclined to listen to the EU trade commissioner rather than you.

Uhhhhhh do you even know how diplomacy works?

[The Don]

Then you understand nothing of world diplomacy or world trade. But let's say your paranoid little fantasy is real and happens

Hahahahahahahahahaha, somebodies jimmies have been rustled. Bit ironic since you're the guy that thinks all scientists are all colluding together as part of some grand scheme to swindle the taxpayer out of extra money under the guise of global warming.

Then there's this - let's assume again that this fantasy turns out to be real. Have you no self-respect or no national pride? If the EU responds to the will of the British people to govern themselves by erecting tariff barriers then so what? How can you be so spineless and how can it come to such a low point where you have such little backbone that you want to be held to ransom and blackmailed by a group of non-entities in the EU Commission? IF such a situation arose (which the economics say wouldn't) then screw em.

If it is the will of the british people they will all vote ukip and this debate will be redundant, but for some reason I don't see that happening which implies that it is not the will of the public. And what is your massive rant even about? It's no secret that I would rather remain in the EU...

You mean like non-EU Switzerland, Norway, Chile, Mexico and other countries which aren't in the EU but which enjoy free trade (along with many other benefits of co-operation) with the EU?

False comparisons, none of them were members of the EU whereby leaving would open the floodgates for other countries to follow.

I find you laughable that you seem to think that there's no life outside of the EU. Bunker mentality.

Again, what are you even on about? I'm pointing out how leaving would also have negative effects which you seem to lie about in your posts, insinuating we 100% would remain free trade with the EU when that's based not on fact but simply guessing.

Uhhhhhh do you even know how diplomacy works?

Er what?

[Ardemax]

You are trying to get me to say that the EU is the cause of ALL our problems and that by leaving it we'll turn into a utopia over night. I have never claimed this. What I have said is that it's important that we control our own destiny and that leaving the EU is only the start of solving many of our problems.

In terms of youth unemployment, see my answer below for example.



Yes I do believe it's possible to lower youth unemployment without leaving the EU which is why i've argued for the abolition of the minimum wage on these boards before. There are many things that the government could do to solve these problems such as tax-free trade zones in areas with chronic unemployment yet they lack the guts to do anything radical like Thatcher did.

You have made it quite clear that seemingly all of the problems facing Britain somehow stem from being involved with the EU. You therefore rate the EU as the biggest problem to out sustainability (I'm not saying you're wrong, I just can't understand why).

In order to combat unemployment you would reduce the minimum wage (or abolish, whichever floats your boat). So instead of people living off unemployment benefits whilst looking for work you'd encourage them to perhaps take a lower income and work longer hours just so it reflects well on the unemployment statistics. I'm not really following this logic either, perhaps you could it explain it?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Hahahahahahahahahaha, somebodies jimmies have been rustled. Bit ironic since you're the guy that thinks all scientists are all colluding together as part of some grand scheme to swindle the taxpayer out of extra money under the guise of global warming.

Absolutely.

I've never found weathly politicians flying around the world telling me not to fly otherwise the world will end convincing. Well.. I did when I was aged 12 and naive but that was it.

If it is the will of the british people they will all vote ukip and this debate will be redundant, but for some reason I don't see that happening which implies that it is not the will of the public. And what is your massive rant even about? It's no secret that I would rather remain in the EU...

Well no, they actually vote for the three main parties who - at every election - promise to either give us a referendum or to claw back powers from the EU. None of them have ever stood promising to hand over more powers to the European Union. Voting every 5 years doesn't give a mandate for a party to do anything.

All I want is for the three main parties to come forward and say openly for once that they want a federal Europe and they want a thousand years of independence to come to an end - and finally we can then have a nationwide discussion as to whether that's what we want as a country instead of the status quo where the two faced *******s lie out of their teeth to us and refuse to give us a say.

False comparisons, none of them were members of the EU whereby leaving would open the floodgates for other countries to follow.

And so what if they do? Many on the continent would love to leave the EU and return to a Europe of intergovernmentalism whereby sovereign nations trade with one another and co-operate where they see fit.

I want Britain out of the EU first and foremost, and wish the other nations of Europe the best of luck in managing to escape too.

Again, what are you even on about? I'm pointing out how leaving would also have negative effects which you seem to lie about in your posts, insinuating we 100% would remain free trade with the EU when that's based not on fact but simply guessing.

No it's based on engaging your brain, dimwit.

Everything I say you can measure up in terms of world affairs and the use of some thought, yet all you keep coming back with is puerile rubbish about the EU cutting off trade with the UK. Absolute rubbish - and as I said, even if they did then so what? The United Kingdom should not allow itself to be held to ransom by an unelected goon squad in Brussels.

Or do you think we should have ourselves held to ransom by Barroso? Spineless.

Er what?

Well again, engage your brain and you'll realise that diplomacy is all about threats and gaining the upper hand. So for example, seeing as Britain pays a huge proportion of the EU's budget they don't want us to leave. So how can they put us off leaving? Have one of the commissioners issue thinly veiled threats about Britain outside of the EU in the hope that it'll put the gullible part of the electorate (ie you) off.

Of course none of these threats carry any weight because a) they're politically impossible b) economically impossible and c) defy common sense, as I mentioned earlier concerning your concern that the world's sixth largest economy might not be able to secure a FTA with the EU whilst Mexico and Albania can.

You have made it quite clear that seemingly all of the problems facing Britain somehow stem from being involved with the EU. You therefore rate the EU as the biggest problem to out sustainability (I'm not saying you're wrong, I just can't understand why).

No I haven't. Our poor foreign policy has nothing to do with the EU. Nor do our **** comprehensive schools. Nor does our complex tax system. Nor does the mess of devolution. Nor does the moral rot in society. Nor does the breakdown in law and order.

I rate the EU as the biggest concern to this country because it is a direct threat to the continued independence of this country. The ability to control our own destiny or have it made for us within some federalised or United States of Europe. Is that what you want? If not, then it's time to start rattling the cage a bit louder before we walk straight into it.

In order to combat unemployment you would reduce the minimum wage (or abolish, whichever floats your boat). So instead of people living off unemployment benefits whilst looking for work you'd encourage them to perhaps take a lower income and work longer hours just so it reflects well on the unemployment statistics. I'm not really following this logic either, perhaps you could it explain it?

Well i'm not getting into a debate in this thread on the minimum wage but basically the notion is that the minimum wage artificially inflates low-paid jobs which means employers hire less young people which in turn means less skills being taught which in turn leads to a higher backlog on the youth unemployment roll.

[The Don]

HUGE RANT CRYING ABOUT EU SUPERSTATE!!!11!1!

Don't act so high and mighty, no wonder you only get the same few people debating with you because everybody else is absolutely fed up with you rambling on.

You posted

As for free trade, erm yes we would. Are you even aware of what the EU withdrawal process would look like?

Now that we've established this isn't true, and that your entire argument is based on huge assumptions there isn't anything more for me to debate.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Don't act so high and mighty, no wonder you only get the same few people debating with you because everybody else is absolutely fed up with you rambling on.

Do I care? If you don't like it then don't debate me.

Now that we've established this isn't true, and that your entire argument is based on huge assumptions there isn't anything more for me to debate.

No you haven't. Try harder.

You aren't even aware of article 50 and the process yet you're debating me on what a British withdrawal from the European Union would look like. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight son.

[The Don]

Do I care? If you don't like it then don't debate me.

My original post was addressed to Ardemax iirc, you're the one who engaged in debate with me.

You aren't even aware of article 50 and the process yet you're debating me on what a British withdrawal from the European Union would look like. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight son.

I've already asked you once and I'll ask you again, cite where it mentions free trade will be kept for any leaving country. I suspect you're referencing the negotiation period which does not = guaranteed free trade.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I've already asked you once and I'll ask you again, cite where it mentions free trade will be kept for any leaving country. I suspect you're referencing the negotiation period which does not = guaranteed free trade.

WTO members must move towards liberalised trade. If the EU goes back on this against another WTO member then it is in direct violation of the aims of the WTO. Standard international agreement yet you've completely overlooked it.

And again, simple economics and common sense dictate that trade would continue between the EU and UK. Why? Because for trade to cease between the two trade partners would cause economic damage that neither side wants - especially not the Eurozone. A region crying out for investment will not want to upset the home of the world's number one financial centre.

[The Don]

WTO members must move towards liberalised trade. If the EU goes back on this against another WTO member then it is in direct violation of the aims of the WTO. Standard international agreement yet you've completely overlooked it.

The EU wouldn't be going back on anything, it would be the UK choosing to leave.

"The EEA is based on the same "four freedoms" as the European Community: the free movement of goods, persons, services, and capital among the EEA countries. Thus, the EFTA countries that are part of the EEA enjoy free trade with the European Union. As a counterpart, these countries have to adopt part of the Law of the European Union"

If the UK left the EU it wouldn't meet this criteria and would have to re-negotiate free trade.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The EU wouldn't be going back on anything, it would be the UK choosing to leave.

"The EEA is based on the same "four freedoms" as the European Community: the free movement of goods, persons, services, and capital among the EEA countries. Thus, the EFTA countries that are part of the EEA enjoy free trade with the European Union. As a counterpart, these countries have to adopt part of the Law of the European Union"

If the UK left the EU it wouldn't meet this criteria and would have to re-negotiate free trade.

Facepalm. What on earth are you talking about? Free trade doesn't exist solely within the European Union legal framework you know, hence the WTO framework along with Free Trade Agreements which are diplomatically thrashed out between the EU-Saudi Arabia or the EU-Switzerland. Mexico is not within the EU, EEA or EFTA yet enjoys a negotiated FTA with the EU. The same for countless other countries.

In ANY case you don't have to be in the EU to be in the EEA - Norway and Iceland are the two prime examples of EFTA states that are in the EEA but not in the EU. I personally favour a withdrawal from the single market too - although if the single market means that much to you then there's the Norway option whereby we can remain within the single market but leave the EU.