Britons 'too ignorant' for an EU referendum says unelected Vice-President of EU

[The Don]

Indeed, but there's different types and whether or not they have any use. The Commission is a terrible waste of resources that's haemorrhaging funds all the time. The Lords has an actual use as it is just an upper chamber. The Commission isn't that useful and could instead be replaced with a smaller model and be fully accountable to each individual member state. In it's current form, it's the lower end of the "good unelected spectrum", since hardly any of the Commissioners turn up as even they know it's a waste of time being there. They're meddling in important national affairs, without really knowing what they're doing or what is wrong (where the HoL has an advantage and the Commission not so much). It's like hiring someone with no educational background to be the Education Minister, for example The Commission is always getting in to trouble. It will be interesting if it's still around after 2020.

Of course, but my point is that chucking unelected in the heading for dramatic effect is a cheap trick, especially when you and dan both acknowledge that not all unelected things are necessarily bad. There are certainly things wrong with the commission which I would like to see changed, I don't think scrapping it would be wise but there definitely needs to be some sort of reformation with either the commission being elected directly by the people or more power being given to european parliament.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Of course, but my point is that chucking unelected in the heading for dramatic effect is a cheap trick, especially when you and dan both acknowledge that not all unelected things are necessarily bad. There are certainly things wrong with the commission which I would like to see changed, I don't think scrapping it would be wise but there definitely needs to be some sort of reformation with either the commission being elected directly by the people or more power being given to european parliament.

And how will that solve anything? Europe lacks a demos aka a people as a whole and thus cannot function ever as a democracy just as Northern Ireland fails to function properly as a democracy. Electing the Commission or the parliament doesn't make them anymore legitimate which is a reason why Mrs Thatcher famously refused to call it a parliament and instead referred to it as an assembly. It can never be a real parliament.

And secondly, that's all just a pipe dream. The EU is purposely designed as so to avoid democratic decisions by the people hence why those behind European integration have never come out fully in the open about their real intentions which is a federal or united European state. To simple say that we need to reform the EU is exactly the same thing that the useless Tories have been saying since the day they took us in over forty years ago. That's not realistic and it ain't gonna happen. Why? Because the moment European integration comes up against the ballot box it will stall and fail which is why they're so keen on ignoring or avoiding referendums/democracy altogether.

[GommeInc]

Of course, but my point is that chucking unelected in the heading for dramatic effect is a cheap trick, especially when you and dan both acknowledge that not all unelected things are necessarily bad. There are certainly things wrong with the commission which I would like to see changed, I don't think scrapping it would be wise but there definitely needs to be some sort of reformation with either the commission being elected directly by the people or more power being given to european parliament.

Do you know I hadn't noticed the unelected bit I just ignore these things as it's just window dressing - I go straight for the real info behind it Probably why I hadn't noticed and didn't quite understand what you were talking about.

There wouldn't be much point electing them directly as member states have enough problems making their own elected officials accountable, but then as you suggest, if they could vote for a single member or somehow streamline it so it isn't a complete waste of money and also only focus on those who are not failed politicians it would be a better organisation. That, and that it shouldn't be about making a United States of Europe set up which is in the EU Treaties. Personally I think they shouldn't have any more power - the EEC was a much better set up and wasn't haemorrhaging funds or trying to do away with individual cultures and essentially making the countries seem thick and incapable of setting their own laws, despite these countries having operated for centuries and doing quite well by themselves. It should be about collaboration, not incorporation.

[Chippiewill]

The House of Lords doesn't have the power to propose or even block for that matter any meaningful legislation.

Like a bill proposing we have a referendum on leaving the EU? Oh wait, they did block it.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Like a bill proposing we have a referendum on leaving the EU? Oh wait, they did block it.

The bill for a referendum in 2017 isn't serious - it's just a gimmick to 'shoot the Ukip fox' as they say. Besides, all the Lords did was impede it - if we had a proper opposition party that opposed our EU membership for example, it would have introduced the bill back in 2010 after being elected rather than having to have been dragged kicking and screaming to introducing this pathetic excuse for a referendum bill in 2017. The only reason the Tory leadership have caved in and decided to offer a refernedum (provided they get a majority - HA!) is because Tory MPs sitting in marginals are worried that their jobs are under threat by a growing Ukip vote.

If you really believe the Tories are going to offer a referendum then that's your call. I prefer to look at their record. The Lords has nothing to do with us not getting a referendum or a say on Europe, it's 40 years of Labour, Liberal and Tory two faced lies that are to blame and are still to blame. And besides, the Lords has only become more political since the removal of the bulk of hereditry peers and their replacement by the likes of Lords Prescott and Mandelson - that's not something I support.

It really wouldn't surprise me actually if the Tory leadership were happy/egged on Labour and Liberal peers to block the bill. Really wouldn't.

[Chippiewill]

The bill for a referendum in 2017 isn't serious - it's just a gimmick to 'shoot the Ukip fox' as they say.

Rand Paul's lawsuit against Obama is just a gimmick, his stand-up filibuster was just a gimmick. Farage's membership to EU Parliament is just a gimmick. Heck UKIP is just a gimmick.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Rand Paul's lawsuit against Obama is just a gimmick, his stand-up filibuster was just a gimmick. Farage's membership to EU Parliament is just a gimmick. Heck UKIP is just a gimmick.

Gimmicks to achieve something. The Tories gimmick is to hold up the pretence that they're eurosceptic in the slightest.

As I said, I don't buy it.