Labour, party of the people, rule out referendum on EU

[Kardan]

One saying I've always valued a lot in life applies here really:

Basically, how much does the average Brit know about the EU? Now realise that half of all Brits know less than that person.

I don't think it's suitable for a referendum to decide our fate in Europe, I would rather leave that to the government. So if the Tories or UKIP take us out of Europe, then let it be, but I prefer the government making decisions (even if it is a government I'm not fond off) rather than the general population.

And you say that we shouldn't let the population decide on a whole range of matters either, but where are the referendums on those? Referendums are clearly different to elections.

[FlyingJesus]

If the plebs can't decide on Europe then they certainly can't be allowed to decide on foreign affairs, defence, education, health, debt & economics, welfare & social issues?

They don't...

[-:Undertaker:-]

They don't...

Yes they do, in elections.

[Kardan]

Yes they do, in elections.

So why can't the people decide on whether we leave the EU in elections?

So you're saying people decide on everything in elections... except our EU status?

[FlyingJesus]

"WE SHOULD ALL VOTE FOR EVERYTHING SINGULARLY"
"We vote to let people represent us"
"THAT DOESN'T COUNT THEY'RE WRONG, WE LET PEOPLE VOTE ON OTHER ISSUES"
"No we don't"
"WE VOTE TO LET PEOPLE REPRESENT US"
"..."


We essentially have double the vote opportunities for Europe since there are MPs and MEPs voted in, so if you're going to claim that education etc is "voted on" in elections (even though you earlier showed distaste for representative democracy, flippy floppy again maybe you should see a doctor if that keeps happening) then Europe as an electoral topic is already receiving a far greater share of democracy than all the rest

[-:Undertaker:-]

So why can't the people decide on whether we leave the EU in elections?

So you're saying people decide on everything in elections... except our EU status?

That would be true if our system worked as it is supposed to in which we have two polar opposite parties which staunchly oppose one another, but we do not. Under FPTP, we are suppposed to have two main parties in which they genuinely criticise and wish to overturn what the other does - hence the Westminster system.

However, in recent years, we now have a system were we have two parties which are broadly similar - and both are held in place by FPTP - which diminishes the entire point of voting which is to change the programme of the government. So your point would be valid if we had what the system is supposed to offer which is two major parties that are polar opposites, yet we do not.

"WE SHOULD ALL VOTE FOR EVERYTHING SINGULARLY"
"We vote to let people represent us"
"THAT DOESN'T COUNT THEY'RE WRONG, WE LET PEOPLE VOTE ON OTHER ISSUES"
"No we don't"
"WE VOTE TO LET PEOPLE REPRESENT US"
"..."


We essentially have double the vote opportunities for Europe since there are MPs and MEPs voted in, so if you're going to claim that education etc is "voted on" in elections (even though you earlier showed distaste for representative democracy, flippy floppy again maybe you should see a doctor if that keeps happening) then Europe as an electoral topic is already receiving a far greater share of democracy than all the rest

Look i'm not a fan of referendums but as our political class feel free to use them to paper over political divides in their own parties (the EEC referendum, the Scottish and Welsh devolution referendums, the AV+ referendum) I think i'm entitled to ask for a referendum for myself thank you very much.

The Swiss seem to manage fine with referenda.

[FlyingJesus]

Of course you're entitled to say you want one, it's your hypocritical logic-dodging method of argument that I oppose. That said, you're again kinda missing the point of elected representatives - there's no reason they shouldn't use referenda when they see fit and not when they don't because they've been elected to make such decisions whereas you have not