Working classes are abandoning Labour for Ukip, top Labour guru warns

[-:Undertaker:-]

I'm ridiculous because you saw a comment about racist VOTERS and decided to go on the attack about your beloved do-no-wrong party, righto.

It's a thread about Ukip and Labour, unless you mean the Labour Party? :rolleyes:

Hilariously enough I can literally just repeat my last reply in answer to your question about whether I think UKIP's immigration policy is what makes them (and apparently everyone else not in the main 3 parties... not sure how you got to that) nationalist extremist:

No, focusing on "being British" rather than the actual welfare of individuals is.

But again, how is the immigration party nationalist or extremist?

You are full of soundbytes and insults, like the three rotten establishment parties, but you don't actually DEBATE anything - all you do is throw insults at the vast majority of Britons who want to see some form of immigration controls put back on movement from Europe to the UK.

It's not nationalist, extremist or racist to want immigration controlled and for immigrants to integrate. It's common sense the world over.

From 3:40

[FlyingJesus]

That's wonderful but as I've literally just said, that isn't what I was on about. You just replied to "no, immigration policies aren't what makes them nationalist extremists, their obsession with Britishness is" with "HOW IS IMMIGRATION POLICY NATIONALIST". If I'm full of soundbytes and insults it's certainly better than what you're full of

[-:Undertaker:-]

That's wonderful but as I've literally just said, that isn't what I was on about. You just replied to "no, immigration policies aren't what makes them nationalist extremists, their obsession with Britishness is" with "HOW IS IMMIGRATION POLICY NATIONALIST". If I'm full of soundbytes and insults it's certainly better than what you're full of

What's this 'obsession' with Britishness? You mean the notion that immigrants who come here should integrate and become a part of us?

THAT'S SO WAYCIST/NATIONALIST/XENOPHOBIC/WHATEVER OTHER INSULT YOU CAN THINK OF.... not. :rolleyes:

[FlyingJesus]

"Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation."

Yes

Furthermore
 
na·tion·al·ism
[nash-uh-nl-iz-uhm, nash-nuh-liz-]
noun
1.spirit or aspirations common to the whole of a nation.
2.devotion and loyalty to one's own country; patriotism.
3.excessive patriotism; chauvinism.
4.the desire for national advancement or political independence.
5.the policy or doctrine of asserting the interests of one's own nation viewed as separate from the interests of other nations or the common interests of all nations.

[-:Undertaker:-]

"Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation."

Yes

No.

"Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality." - George Orwell, Notes on Nationalism

I'm a patriot thank you very much, as are Ukip.

And proud of it and proud of this country. Why on earth shouldn't we be?

[FlyingJesus]

lol seeing you quoting a staunch democratic socialist as your argument amuses me, nonetheless:
"By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people"
Clearly that definition (and as he says, definitions are liable to be challenged) doesn't fit for UKIP's/your beliefs since you do wish to force it on others despite claiming to be a libertarian who wouldn't do such a thing but whatev.

[Inseriousity.]

I'd say it was a class issue. That sort of 'these foreigners taking our jobs' rhetoric (even in areas like the north east where it's like 96% white british) is prevalent in working class circles and judging by their recent poster campaign I'd say UKIP know that. Of course these are the same people that 'never vote, no point is there' so whether that'll result in success at the election will depend. I don't know a single person who votes in the EU elections anyway.

[-:Undertaker:-]

lol seeing you quoting a staunch democratic socialist as your argument amuses me

Did I not just open this thread by expressing my respect and admiration for democratic socialists like Clement Attlee, Hugh Gaitskell, Michael Foot and Barbara Castle? I've also expressed admiration for traditional left-wingers like Tony Benn and Kate Hoey in the past.

So why does that 'amuse' you when it shouldn't come as a shock at all.

nonetheless:
"By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people"
Clearly that definition (and as he says, definitions are liable to be challenged) doesn't fit for UKIP's/your beliefs since you do wish to force it on others despite claiming to be a libertarian who wouldn't do such a thing but whatev.

Are immigrants forced to come to this country? No, they are not. They come here voluntarily. If I invite you into my house, I expect you - and you would expect me to - want you to abide by my rules and my customs in my house. If people come to this country, then I expect them to abide by our rules and our customs. If Britain was kidnapping foreigners and bringing them in and THEN expecting them to conform to British values, then you might have a point. But as it happens, Britain isn't doing that and you don't have a point.

So again, an abject failure by yourself to even understand the quote.

I'd say it was a class issue. That sort of 'these foreigners taking our jobs' rhetoric (even in areas like the north east where it's like 96% white british) is prevalent in working class circles and judging by their recent poster campaign I'd say UKIP know that. Of course these are the same people that 'never vote, no point is there' so whether that'll result in success at the election will depend. I don't know a single person who votes in the EU elections anyway.

But those concerns aren't to be sneered at. Mass immigration does hit the poorest and deprived areas hard.

That's why Jack Straw, David Blunkett, Jacqui Smith and other Labour figures are all now apologising for mass migration between '97 and '10.

[Inseriousity.]

Naturally but as I already pointed out, the North East of England is not as affected by mass immigration as other parts of the country where those fears would at least have some valid basis. Instead it feels more like jumping on a bandwagon. The North East of England's economic decline is more to do with the London-centric governments and the lack of any real challenge or threat for the Labour party, which just results in complacency. I disagree with UKIP on a lot of things but if it's true that they are aiming (and be successful) at gaining more votes in the North and that causes the parties to raise their game then I'm all for it.

[FlyingJesus]

So forcing people to live a certain way is ok in your faux-libertarian brain as long as it's done in a certain place... I've not misunderstood anything (unlike yourself attacking points that hadn't even been made for a good while), it's a simple concept whereby forcing someone to do what you want them to do for the sake of Britishness despite their actions harming nobody and being perfectly legal is nationalism. Your house is your property, the country you live in is not