EU forces elected British government to renege on Queen's Speech promise

[-:Undertaker:-]

@FlyingJesus;

You've basically said that there's no such thing as a British people or demos whilst there's a European one.

And if a "common political and social identity" is what you need for a demos then there isn't a British one either, so it's really a rather self-defeating argument

There's only so much you can do to try and reason with somebody who is arguing that water flows uphill. If you dispute the very existence of historic nations like Britain and France, as well as the literal definition of a demos which is how a democracy functions, then it's impossible to hold a discussion with you on this.

Imagine all the people... free from utopia-builders like Tom who create unworkable states/democracies that end in violence and disaster.

[FlyingJesus]

An if/then statement is not the same as saying it's what I believe... how the hell are you debates manager? And it's you trying to argue against the literal definition(s) of demos lol, you're trying to pretend that the phrase "common people" means everyone (which I guess is kinda fair for someone from Liverpool) and flat-out ignoring the definition that actually fits the modern world.

And where are you getting utopia-builder from? I'm genuinely confused as to how you can even attempt to paint me as some sort of idealist when I'm speaking only in literal terms and you're the one inventing your own definitions in order to create some sort of cosmic balance of pure traditions

[-:Undertaker:-]

An if/then statement is not the same as saying it's what I believe... how the hell are you debates manager? And it's you trying to argue against the literal definition(s) of demos lol, you're trying to pretend that the phrase "common people" means everyone (which I guess is kinda fair for someone from Liverpool) and flat-out ignoring the definition that actually fits the modern world.

Nation states are as old as civilisation, they are not an idea that has suddenly expired. Indeed you could argue that if anything the notion of a nation state and a demos has become stronger in the last century, given the end of Empires and the rapid explosion in newly independent states for people with a common culture.

And yes common in that sense does mean everyone, you do understand that interpretation of the word don't you? *cough* Common Market... *cough*

And where are you getting utopia-builder from? I'm genuinely confused as to how you can even attempt to paint me as some sort of idealist when I'm speaking only in literal terms and you're the one inventing your own definitions in order to create some sort of cosmic balance of pure traditions

Nation states and needing a demos for democracy are realpolitik, not some idea from the past.

Ask the Kurds - a common people with shared traditions, ideals, values - who are on the brink of finally establishing their own independent state after hundreds of years of being caught in the borders of other states. And an independent Kurdistan has a chance of working as both a nation state and possibly even a democracy given it has that required demos and conforms to the established definitions despite what you may pretend otherwise.

But nope, there's Tom on the other hand denying the existence of a Kurdish people or demos. He knows better than thousands of years of history.

[FlyingJesus]

Nation states are as old as civilisation, they are not an idea that has suddenly expired. Indeed you could argue that if anything the notion of a nation state and a demos has become stronger in the last century, given the end of Empires and the rapid explosion in newly independent states for people with a common culture.

Yeah you could argue that... so? It doesn't make a specific reference less specific and isn't anything to do with what I just said

And yes common in that sense does mean everyone, you do understand that interpretation of the word don't you? *cough* Common Market... *cough*

No it doesn't because it's in reference to ancient Greece, where democracy certainly did not extend to everyone. Also you're still ignoring the existence of the NON-SPECIFIC definition: The populace of a democracy as a political unit.
That's all that it means. This is not difficult, you're just making it look that way by ignoring everything that you wish didn't exist and making up new bits to fill in the gaps

Nation states and needing a demos for democracy are realpolitik, not some idea from the past.

Where the hell did that come from are you just throwing out catchphrases from a .txt file or something now because that is not relevant to anything that's been said

Ask the Kurds - a common people with shared traditions, ideals, values - who are on the brink of finally establishing their own independent state after hundreds of years of being caught in the borders of other states. And an independent Kurdistan has a chance of working as both a nation state and possibly even a democracy given it has that required demos and conforms to the established definitions despite what you may pretend otherwise.

But nope, there's Tom on the other hand denying the existence of a Kurdish people or demos. He knows better than thousands of years of history.

I don't deny the existence of Kurds, you're lying again. I would state that there is no current Kurdish demos BECAUSE OF WHAT DEMOS MEANS but that will change if Kurdistan becomes a nation/state with democratic governance. Regardless of whether that happens or not, there are clearly people who are culturally Kurdish, but because of the current political state of the region that is a people and not a demos - they aren't the same thing.

[The Don]

@FlyingJesus;

Still all over the place, what a joke.

Once I pin him on why certain nations won't work as they're created from separate cultural groups and lack a common people aka a demos, he falls apart and just witters on about us not being in ancient Greece despite not understanding that the word democracy comes from the word demos as it is generally accepted that for a democracy to function you need a common people who share broadly similar beliefs. Otherwise you end up with Yugoslavia and Iraq style scenarios.

But no, John Lennon Tom knows better.

If you think you're 'winning' here or in anyway making anyone else other than yourself appear to be a fool then you're clearly more deluded than I thought you were.