Lord Rose, businessman who supports lower wages for workers, to lead pro-EU campaign

[abc]

Didn't realise this topic was about a legally enforced minimum wage. OH WAIT yeah it's not, you just changed it to that. :rolleyes:

And this referendum isn't party political so stop banging the Ukip bongo drum.

I was just proving it is fully related to minimum wage.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I was just proving it is fully related to minimum wage.

It's about mass unskilled immigration keeping wages low which is caused by EU membership.

Nowhere in the piece does Lord Rose talk about legally repealing the minimum wage act. Why? Because he's not talking about the rights/wrongs of the mw.

[abc]

It's about mass unskilled immigration keeping wages low which is caused by EU membership.

Nowhere in the piece does Lord Rose talk about legally repealing the minimum wage act. Why? Because he's not talking about the rights/wrongs of the mw.

Oh my. But to achieve what he wants, which is a fluctuating minimum wage, you must first scrap the fixed minimum wage - so yes it is fully related to fixed minimum wage. If you do not see this then wow.

[FlyingJesus]

Nowhere in this piece does he say that he likes the idea of open borders, or a privatised NHS, OR EVEN THAT UNSKILLED LABOUR IS HIS ISSUE either, but what educated people with logic and reasoning do is take inferences and apply them to things. You're really not very good at this at all Dan

[-:Undertaker:-]

Oh my. But to achieve what he wants, which is a fluctuating minimum wage, you must first scrap the fixed minimum wage - so yes it is fully related to fixed minimum wage. If you do not see this then wow.

I have no idea if he would like the legal minimum wage scrapped or not, if he does then we at least agree on something. What we don't agree on is what he's actually said rather than speculation on a different topic that is linked but isn't the actual topic. He's stated he wants mass immigration and supports the current huge influx as it keeps wages compressed down at the current levels. I didn't say below minimum wage and nor has he, as obviously that would be illegal under minimum wage law: he wants to keep them down and static as low as legally possible.

I disagree with him on that and even the left-leaning Independent newspaper doesn't seem impressed either. That's the subject at hand.
@FlyingJesus;

...and yet it's interesting neither of you have debated it once in this thread instead trying to move the argument onto a debate on the minimum wage rather than what it is actually about which is Lord Rose wanting to use mass immigration as a business tool to keep low wages down as low as possible.

I won't be debating what he said anymore from this point as it is clear to anyone with a working pair of eyeballs what Lord Rose is saying, similar to if we were having a debate on geopolitics in Iraq and Syria concerning borders i'm sure Tom would seize on the word 'bomb' and want to skew the argument and start talking about arms dealing rather than the actual topic at hand - and i'm not alone if you read the comments on the Independent article you'll see. So after three pages of absolute waffle, i'll debate the actual issue of mass immigration and low wages if you want. If not, no more replies my dears.

Lord Rose states he wants mass immigration to keep wages down at the lowest level (legally) possible. Fact. I disagree with him, what about you?

[abc]

I have no idea if he would like the legal minimum wage scrapped or not, if he does then we at least agree on something. What we don't agree on is what he's actually said rather than speculation on a different topic that is linked but isn't the actual topic. He's stated he wants mass immigration and supports the current huge influx as it keeps wages compressed down at the current levels. I didn't say below minimum wage and nor has he, as obviously that would be illegal under minimum wage law: he wants to keep them down and static as low as legally possible.

I disagree with him on that and even the left-leaning Independent newspaper doesn't seem impressed either. That's the subject at hand.
@FlyingJesus;

...and yet it's interesting neither of you have debated it once in this thread instead trying to move the argument onto a debate on the minimum wage rather than what it is actually about which is Lord Rose wanting to use mass immigration as a business tool to keep low wages down as low as possible.

I won't be debating what he said anymore from this point as it is clear to anyone with a working pair of eyeballs what Lord Rose is saying, similar to if we were having a debate on geopolitics in Iraq and Syria concerning borders i'm sure Tom would seize on the word 'bomb' and want to skew the argument and start talking about arms dealing rather than the actual topic at hand - and i'm not alone if you read the comments on the Independent article you'll see. So after three pages of absolute waffle, i'll debate the actual issue of mass immigration and low wages if you want. If not, no more replies my dears.

Lord Rose states he wants mass immigration to keep wages down at the lowest level (legally) possible. Fact. I disagree with him, what about you?

How can you fail to see that if minimum wage is scrapped then only can you achieve what he wants to achieve? If you a fixed minimum wage then minimum wage is the lowest wage possible so his proposal cannot be properly implemented.

I personally disagree that minimum wage should be scrapped. Even though I think minimum wage has actually hurt the country by making it unviable to manufacture may of the items in UK, we are now in a situation where prices are so high that wages lower than minimum wage may significantly affect people in several negative ways including their well being and mental health. However I do not think the minimum wage should be increased as it currently has been done this month. Why? Because it is what ends up causing inflation. Businesses pay more to their staff, thus their costs are increased, they increase their prices and therefore that minimum wage increase has had no real positive benefit. Not only that, many businesses have very small margins and the wage increases eats into that margin, they then either make people redundant or close down, which has a negative affect on the economy overall.

I have seen people work in America with basically no minimum wage in jobs like waitress and the struggle is massive. They rely on tips and that is wrong.

[-:Undertaker:-]

How can you fail to see that if minimum wage is scrapped then only can you achieve what he wants to achieve? If you a fixed minimum wage then minimum wage is the lowest wage possible so his proposal cannot be properly implemented.

But he can and is achieving it now. I don't understand how you both aren't getting this. If we say for instance, that in 2005 the average hourly pay for unskilled labour was £4.00 and each year it rises £1.00. The minimum wage is £4.00. In normal market circumstances with slight inflation and a healthy economy, the annual increase is £1.00 on wages because to get the people to work these jobs it has to be economically beneficial for people to work them rather than remain on welfare. So say in 2010 the average wage has increased to £9.00: that's a good thing as those low level wages are then keeping up with the cost of living and inflation.

But mass immigration reverses that. Instead of having to, due to market circumstances and demand and supply, raise wages: employers such as Lord Rose can simply bring in unlimited unskilled labour from abroad to do those jobs for £4.00 to £6.00 to 2010 and beyond. Why? Because single Polish men sleeping 6 to a bedroom can afford such wages and don't mind such living conditions whereas British workers (with families and other obligations) cannot and should not.

Lord Rose wants to keep wages from increasing and keep them as low as he legally can. Hence why he supports mass immigration.

I personally disagree that minimum wage should be scrapped. Even though I think minimum wage has actually hurt the country by making it unviable to manufacture may of the items in UK, we are now in a situation where prices are so high that wages lower than minimum wage may significantly affect people in several negative ways including their well being and mental health. However I do not think the minimum wage should be increased as it currently has been done this month. Why? Because it is what ends up causing inflation. Businesses pay more to their staff, thus their costs are increased, they increase their prices and therefore that minimum wage increase has had no real positive benefit. Not only that, many businesses have very small margins and the wage increases eats into that margin, they then either make people redundant or close down, which has a negative affect on the economy overall.

I have seen people work in America with basically no minimum wage in jobs like waitress and the struggle is massive. They rely on tips and that is wrong.

I disagree (and work for minimum wage and would work for less) but that's another whole can of fish.

[FlyingJesus]

Lord Rose states he wants mass immigration to keep wages down at the lowest level (legally) possible.

Really? Because actually no those aren't the words he said at all. What you're doing is INFERRING his meaning from what he said...

“I’m a free-market economist; we operate in a free market,” he told Sky News. “If these people want to come here, and work the hours they are prepared to work for the wages they are prepared to work for, then so be it.”

Hey look, he's not said the words "I want mass immigration" at all. And according to you over the past few pages no views exist at all unless they're written in blood and with the exact wording. Whoopsie.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Really? Because actually no those aren't the words he said at all. What you're doing is INFERRING his meaning from what he said...

yes he did.

“If these people want to come here, and work the hours they are prepared to work for the wages they are prepared to work for, then so be it.”

Hey look, he's not said the words "I want mass immigration" at all. And according to you over the past few pages no views exist at all unless they're written in blood and with the exact wording. Whoopsie.

Yes he has, he's campaigning to remain in the European Union of which a main pillar is the free movement (mass immigration) of people.

He states just above if people want to come here then so be it. He couldn't be any clearer.

[FlyingJesus]

You don't seem to get the point: you've been saying all through this thread that his views aren't important to this discussion unless they've been written explicitly in this article (which is **** stupid) and are now pointing to things outside the actual quote for your own handholds. I'm not suggesting that he's against mass immigration because it's OBVIOUS that he's all for it, but what's also obvious is that he supports no minimum wages - not because he's said those words in the quoted segment, but because that's what logically follows from his views on the free market.

It should not be this difficult to teach people over the age of six bloody hell.