EU Referendum Megathread (Brexit)

[AgnesIO]

We would categorically not benefit anywhere near like we do now from EU science funding. Don't even bother arguing that from your little table.

[-:Undertaker:-]

We would categorically not benefit anywhere near like we do now from EU science funding. Don't even bother arguing that from your little table.

Where does EU funding come from?

[AgnesIO]

Where does EU funding come from?

Wherever it comes from, that doesn't mean science will receive the same funding. You Leave supporters can't bang on about how we can put it towards out NHS, new immigration controls, science, less tax for this that and the other - it's ridiculous... you can save money in some places, not everywhere...

[abc]

Some real facts:
EU Migrants put in more money in to our country through taxes in comparison to what they use in benefits, NHS etc. Hence EU Migrants help our country.
By leaving the EU, we may join the EU single market for which we would have to allow freedom of movement, so by leaving do not assume you are automatically blocking people from EU coming here. In that case we will leave the EU, still allow freedom of movement but have no say in EU rules which will affect us .... so those voting to leave will be voting to reduce our influence. Why the hell would anyone do that? We know why Boris wants to but why would a sane citizen want that?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Wherever it comes from, that doesn't mean science will receive the same funding. You Leave supporters can't bang on about how we can put it towards out NHS, new immigration controls, science, less tax for this that and the other - it's ridiculous... you can save money in some places, not everywhere...

Well hang on, isn't that the point in this whole discussion. If you do not like what a government is doing or how it is spending your money you pay in taxes, then every five years you go to the ballot box and make your opinion heard. That's known as parliamentary democracy. With the European Union you do not have that power to either reward those in power or to hold them accountable. Like, doesn't the principle of democracy matter to you!?

And while it doesn't mean science will receive the same funding (why not?) it also doesn't mean that science won't receive more funding.

Some real facts:
EU Migrants put in more money in to our country through taxes in comparison to what they use in benefits, NHS etc. Hence EU Migrants help our country.
By leaving the EU, we may join the EU single market for which we would have to allow freedom of movement, so by leaving do not assume you are automatically blocking people from EU coming here. In that case we will leave the EU, still allow freedom of movement but have no say in EU rules which will affect us .... so those voting to leave will be voting to reduce our influence. Why the hell would anyone do that? We know why Boris wants to but why would a sane citizen want that?

What use is having a "say" (of which no examples can ever be given) in the EU in regards to immigration when we forbidden from controlling it?

You're basically telling us "stay in to have a say in order to be forbidden from having control" and it doesn't wash pal.

SMACKDOWN. Immigration needs to be controlled, the vast majority want it. EU rules forbidding control are an affront to our democracy & elections.

[abc]

Well hang on, isn't that the point in this whole discussion. If you do not like what a government is doing or how it is spending your money you pay in taxes, then every five years you go to the ballot box and make your opinion heard. That's known as parliamentary democracy. With the European Union you do not have that power to either reward those in power or to hold them accountable. Like, doesn't the principle of democracy matter to you!?

And while it doesn't mean science will receive the same funding (why not?) it also doesn't mean that science won't receive more funding.



What use is having a "say" (of which no examples can ever be given) in the EU in regards to immigration when we forbidden from controlling it?

You're basically telling us "stay in to have a say in order to be forbidden from having control" and it doesn't wash pal.

SMACKDOWN. Immigration needs to be controlled, the vast majority want it. EU rules forbidding control are an affront to our democracy & elections.

Yet you are deluded and fail to see we will still have freedom of movement if we leave the EU. It is almost certain we will join the single market and thus have to allow freedom of movement.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Yet you are deluded and fail to see we will still have freedom of movement if we leave the EU. It is almost certain we will join the single market and thus have to allow freedom of movement.

It was I who suggested that principled remainers who genuinely do not want more powers to be transferred to the Eurropean Union should vote Leave and advocate the EEA as a post-Brexit solution which would mainly keep the status quo with many powers back. Have you now come around to this suggestion?

That doesn't mean I agree with you on the EEA after we have left. But again, that is something to be decided as a country after we've activated Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty and begin proceedings to leave. It could well be that we are able to change the FoM aspect of the EEA given our size and influence, or it could be that the options of both the EEA (as it is currently constituted in Norway form) and EFTA are put forward in a national referendum. Either of these though are much better than continued membership of the EU given the constant push for ever closer union. My ultimate concern before immigration, regulation or anything is national sovereignty and the supremacy of our courts being restored.

[AgnesIO]

Well hang on, isn't that the point in this whole discussion. If you do not like what a government is doing or how it is spending your money you pay in taxes, then every five years you go to the ballot box and make your opinion heard. That's known as parliamentary democracy. With the European Union you do not have that power to either reward those in power or to hold them accountable. Like, doesn't the principle of democracy matter to you!?

I don't think that was what I was discussing? :S

[-:Undertaker:-]

I don't think that was what I was discussing? :S

Oh but you'll have to. The question is who governs Britain: the unelected institutions of the European Union or the elected British Parliament?

You've made the point over science funding that a government could (again, purely guesswork on your part) lower funding for science. That's true. But it is also true that it could raise spending on science funding given the extra windfall we'll have from our former EU membership fees. The point however isn't whether Brexit would bring about the result you would want in policy, but that policy - good or bad - is once again made by our elected parliament. If you do not like the actions of a government whether it is over science funding, immigration, the NHS, the death penalty or whatever then you ought to be able to throw them out at the ballot box. With the EU you cannot.

And that's the entire principle of whether we are in or out. I've said countless times before if the EU did everything I wanted I would still want out because I believe in the principle of national independence, parliamentary sovereignty and democracy. I'd suffer a 100 years of Labour government in return for those values. Men my age and yours went over the trenches only 70 years ago into bulletfire for those values, never forget that.

[AgnesIO]

Oh but you'll have to. The question is who governs Britain: the unelected institutions of the European Union or the elected British Parliament?

You've made the point over science funding that a government could (again, purely guesswork on your part) lower funding for science. That's true. But it is also true that it could raise spending on science funding given the extra windfall we'll have from our former EU membership fees. The point however isn't whether Brexit would bring about the result you would want in policy, but that policy - good or bad - is once again made by our elected parliament. If you do not like the actions of a government whether it is over science funding, immigration, the NHS, the death penalty or whatever then you ought to be able to throw them out at the ballot box. With the EU you cannot.

And that's the entire principle of whether we are in or out. I've said countless times before if the EU did everything I wanted I would still want out because I believe in the principle of national independence, parliamentary sovereignty and democracy. I'd suffer a 100 years of Labour government in return for those values. Men my age and yours went over the trenches only 70 years ago into bulletfire for those values, never forget that.

Having spent the last week with some of Britain's best academics in various fields of science, it seems fairly conclusive that they firmly believe we would lose out (in science funding) if we leave the EU. Now, who should I listen to? A scaremongering kipper, or people highly educated in their field? Think I'll listen to them.

I should note, some of them were still anti-EU; but the fact remains they STILL accepted the high chance of losing out in terms of science funding if we lose.

My original post was merely highlighting that your image was wrong. Simple. I never intended to get into the debate of whether they should make decisions on our behalf; simply that what you posted was inaccurate. And I am right.