Gender-based abortions: right or wrong?

[Kardan]

Was meant to be sarcastic if that's where your confusion is coming from? I was taking the idea that a father cannot supposedly by a decent parent "in general" to quote someone and applying it to a gay couple, thus suggesting they would supposedly raise children worse than hetero couples which isn't actually the case.

Yeah, you need to like, italicise it or something

[MKR&*42]

Yeah, you need to like, italicise it or something

Will bear that in mind Ran out of edit time sorry.

[karter]

And..what...about...motherless families.....Do they stand out in these statistics you are talking about? I was comparing fatherless families to motherless families by the way. Because if you realize this argument started where you mentioned the situation where the mother was unwilling to give birth while the father was advocating his right to bring up the child. I would. love. to compare the statistics.

I think the problem lies in your ideology of equality but you have to realize that when it comes to issues like this, men can't really say anything because they are incapable of giving birth. People can call me an outdated 1960s supporter of Identity politics all they want but the whole problem lies where a group of unoppressed people start deciding what's oppressive and what's not because if men start saying something they will shrink women down to the level where there significance will only mean a machine who gives birth to children.

You would think I am being an obnoxious tryhard feminist but not really, I am actually here in support of minorities who are suppressed and the people who are not suppressed think that their opinions matter. No, this is a wrong way of dealing with issues, and that's why if you are a man, and you have got problems with abortion, you have no say in it. You felt insulted when I talked about men even though I carefully put words such as 'generally' and 'most' which obviously implied that all men are in fact not like that. See, now I regret even putting that because that's a very effective way of silencing women rights. We live in a culture where men look down on women, where men are much more in number when it comes to deciding the moral rights of a woman on her body. I think men should shut up and stop thinking about themselves. I think men should shut up and stop benefiting from sexism. I WISH that all the males prolifers on this thread would shut up because they empathize with the cluster of cells growing in a woman who haven't even developed yet and with the male parent with the 'financial stable' tag but not even a bit of empathy for a woman with her own preferences and life choices. (Oh wait, the woman who couldn't keep her legs shut am I right?) Because all the intimidation, rape, sexism, gender based discrimination was not enough so the **** tag goes to the woman who chose not to go through the pregnancy. Pretty much a punishment for having a reproductive system. Call males the oppressive gender? Oop, hit a nerve there.

So that's pretty much why I don't take guys seriously. Now if you're all like "OMG BUT EVERYONE HAS OPINIONS" Yes dear you do have opinions but you gotta learn where your opinions matter, if you are a man and prolife then sorry to break it up to you but you're 100% irrelevant and your narrow minded opinions will only make the society go backward, not forward.

[FlyingJesus]

Right of the woman over her body vs Right of the crybaby male parent who might not even make a good parent. Oh yeah, you gotta pick your battles

I take it then that you absolutely oppose the idea of forced child support payments, as that's putting the rights of a crybaby female parent who might not even be a good parent over the right of a man to his body/time/expenses

2. Women are more attached to children, because they carried them during the pregnancy and would obviously be better caregivers, for men however it's a forced task most of the time.

Scientifically untrue and women are actually more likely to be child abusers than men which does not equate to better caregivers

3. Men are generally clumsy in non verbal communication, nursing, dressing, feeding etc.

Just nonsense frankly

What I wrote above was highly generalized I know, that's why I wrote 'most men' and 'generally' so before anyone jumps in and calls me stereotyped, yeah.

Saying BUT I DIDN'T MEAN IT ABOUT EVERYONE!!! doesn't take anything away from the fact that you quite literally said that men are not a necessity and then listed a bunch of untruths and harmful generalisations. If you don't mean them, don't say them

People can call me an outdated 1960s supporter of Identity politics all they want but the whole problem lies where a group of unoppressed people start deciding what's oppressive and what's not because if men start saying something they will shrink women down to the level where there significance will only mean a machine who gives birth to children.

As opposed to men currently being machines who just pay for things and die

You would think I am being an obnoxious tryhard feminist but not really, I am actually here in support of minorities who are suppressed and the people who are not suppressed think that their opinions matter.

Women are not a minority nor are they oppressed, certainly not in the Western world anyway

We live in a culture where men look down on women

No we don't, not exclusively

I think men should shut up and stop benefiting from sexism.

Yeah having no parental rights, dying at hugely increased rates, being the primary victims of every single type of physical assault (yes including rape), being constantly told otherwise because raping a male isn't even counted as a crime or believed by the police as a problem, having your genitals mutilated at birth for "tradition", being the massive majority of homeless persons and suicides, having an incarceration rate so maligned that the gender gap for same crimes outweighs race gaps, being forced behind in education because schools are made to use methods that are more female-friendly, great benefits. Name one legal right that men have and women don't

Call males the oppressive gender? Oop, hit a nerve there.

Yes because it's a lie. You seem to be getting very worked up about a topic which you know very little about

[karter]

"Women are not a minority nor are they oppressed, certainly not in the Western world anyway"

You said that, I stopped reading. Are you kidding me? Women are oppressed everywhere, everywhere. If you break the bubble of your utopian world, you would know. Women are paid less, sexually harassed at both workplace and at home, rape...a woman can't go out without worrying about physically or sexually assaulted, they are shamed and stigmatized for the same **** men do which they are appreciated for. They are represented less in every field and industry. Do you have a different definition of oppression? Let's take a look at the 'western world'

UK

• 45% of women have experienced some form of domestic violence, sexual assault or stalking.¹⁰
• 21% of girls and 16% of boys experience some form of child sexual abuse¹¹
• At least 80,000 women suffer rape every year.¹²
• In a survey for Amnesty International, over 1 in 4 respondents thought a women was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was wearing sexy or revealing clothing, and more than 1 in 5 held the same view if a woman had had many sexual partners.¹³
• On average, two women a week in England and Wales are killed by a violent partner or ex-partner. This constitutes nearly 40% of all female homicide victims.¹⁴
• 70% of incidents of domestic violence result in injury, (compared with 50% of incidents of acquaintance violence, 48% of stranger violence and 29% of mugging).¹⁵
• Around 85% of forced marriage victims are women¹⁶
• Domestic violence is estimated to cost victims, services and the state a total of around £23 billion a year.¹⁷

^Source: http://www.whiteribbonscotland.org.uk/Resources/violence_against_women

The major English-speaking democracies are placed mostly in the top 40% of the ranked countries. New Zealand ranks at position 27 with women comprising 32.2% of its parliament. Australia (24.7% in the lower house, 38.2% in the upper house) and Canada (24.7% lower house, 37.9% upper house) rank at position 46 out of 189 countries. The United Kingdom is ranked at 58 (22.5% lower house, 22.6% upper house), while the United States ranks 78 (17.8% in the lower house, 20.0% in the upper house)

Source : http://www.ipu.org/wmn-e/classif.htm

By population they are not a minority but by representation in various institutions, they are very much a minority. An institution or group with 30% women would be judged as equal and with 50% women would be judged as women dominated. The USA hasn't had even a woman vice president so don't wave the flag of the oh so perfect western world toward me because all I see is ********

Yeah having no parental rights, dying at hugely increased rates, being the primary victims of every single type of physical assault (yes including rape), being constantly told otherwise because raping a male isn't even counted as a crime or believed by the police as a problem, having your genitals mutilated at birth for "tradition", being the massive majority of homeless persons and suicides, having an incarceration rate so maligned that the gender gap for same crimes outweighs race gaps, being forced behind in education because schools are made to use methods that are more female-friendly, great benefits

??? Do you realize that my post was not targetting male gender, the entire point was that women are much much more oppressed, are you implying that being a male is hard lol? I am not ruling out the sexual and physical violence against men but do you even realise that women have it so much worse that it is not even comparable? Are you going to ignore the facts that nearly all sexual assaults happen against women just to make a point that men are vulnerable too? Are you also going to ignore that it's the women who have to tolerate victim shaming more than men, what the hell are you trying to imply here?? They have been marginalized for centuries but you're like "hey I am not getting free educational benefits like you are" I think we both know what's the serious problem here

- - - Updated - - -

You seem to be getting very worked up about a topic which you know very little about

"Women are not a minority nor are they oppressed, certainly not in the Western world anyway"

lol

[FlyingJesus]

You said that, I stopped reading. Are you kidding me? Women are oppressed everywhere, everywhere. If you break the bubble of your utopian world, you would know. Women are paid less, sexually harassed at both workplace and at home, rape...a woman can't go out without worrying about physically or sexually assaulted, they are shamed and stigmatized for the same **** men do which they are appreciated for. They are represented less in every field and industry. Do you have a different definition of oppression?

Women are paid less due to their own choices; job for job with the same hours women have the same salaries as men. "Wage gap" theory has been debunked time and time again, so yes I repeat that you don't know what you're talking about
Sexual harassment happens for men too only they aren't allowed to report it or they get laughed out of the place. Rape and assault I already covered and it's statistical fact that men suffer more from those than women - fear of something does not equal it being a thing.
Men don't actually get applauded for the things women (and you) seem to think. No-one these days thinks that being a playaplaya is cool, that's some 80s newsroom stuff right there.
Underrepresentation is again down to the women's choice. Equality quotas are a terrible idea and you can't force people to become mechanics or farmers if they don't want to enter those careers. Women also make up the majority of voters btw, so any idea of "omf but politixan r man" is null and void since they're chosen by women and cater to women's needs because the politicians know who the majorities are.
Try coming up with something that is true please.

Let's take a look at the 'western world'

Ok let's.
"45% of women have experienced some form of domestic violence, sexual assault or stalking" yet 70% of non-reciprocal domestic abuse cases have the woman as the perpetrator (and some other lovely domestic facts there for you too), so clearly your number is even higher for men if you actually bother to look at them.

"21% of girls and 16% of boys experience some form of child sexual abuse" instantly very obviously false since 15.8% of underage boys in the UK are circumcised, which is (unless you're a fan of slicing apart someone's genitals without anaesthetic for no real reason) a clear sexual abuse. Furthermore, while obviously all sexual abuse is disgusting and should be stopped, young boys experience full rape more than young girls.

"At least 80,000 women suffer rape every year" and we'll never know how many men, because the law doesn't even state that men can be raped by women so the statistics are hideously flawed. When women raping men is actually named rape as it should be, the figures for who's attacking who are pretty much equal.

"In a survey for Amnesty International, over 1 in 4 respondents thought a women was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was wearing sexy or revealing clothing, and more than 1 in 5 held the same view if a woman had had many sexual partners." Which shows that a lot of people are uneducated and disgusting, nothing to do with oppression though. If we're playing that game though let's count how many people think it's even possible for a woman to rape a man, often explained away because "he always wants it" or some such lovely sentiment.

"On average, two women a week in England and Wales are killed by a violent partner or ex-partner. This constitutes nearly 40% of all female homicide victims" again showing that there are a lot of terrible people about. These women are being killed because their partners are violent psychopaths, not because there's a secret war on women going on.

"70% of incidents of domestic violence result in injury, (compared with 50% of incidents of acquaintance violence, 48% of stranger violence and 29% of mugging)" Notice how there's no actual mention of women in this one, fab. Covered DV already anyway.

"Around 85% of forced marriage victims are women" lots of forced lesbian marriages going on I see.

"Domestic violence is estimated to cost victims, services and the state a total of around £23 billion a year" and would cost even more if male victims had shelters and proper support, but it's far easier to just ignore half of the problem and blame it on them instead.

By population they are not a minority but by representation in various institutions, they are very much a minority. An institution or group with 30% women would be judged as equal and with 50% women would be judged as women dominated. The USA hasn't had even a woman vice president so don't wave the flag of the oh so perfect western world toward me because all I see is ********

Are you 4real equal numbers in X position does not mean equal representation. Regardless of that, I don't see any women clamouring for equal representation among refuse collectors, miners, and other high-risk jobs at which men make up the majority. You're using what's known as the apex fallacy, making the assumption that if men are at the top then all men are better off, when in fact they make up 98% of all workplace deaths and yet still get people like you who just spew what you're told telling them that they're the top class of humans for being a penis.

??? Do you realize that my post was not targetting male gender, the entire point was that women are much much more oppressed,

No they're not

are you implying that being a male is hard lol?

Yes it is

I am not ruling out the sexual and physical violence against men but do you even realise that women have it so much worse that it is not even comparable? Are you going to ignore the facts that nearly all sexual assaults happen against women just to make a point that men are vulnerable too?

No they don't

Are you also going to ignore that it's the women who have to tolerate victim shaming more than men, what the hell are you trying to imply here??

Wow you make an entire long post about how men don't have any problems when I can (and have) shown that they clearly do and have no representation among victims at all then you come along and tell me that men don't get victim shamed, amazing. It's actually laughable that you think a few teens on facebook making disgusting comments about victims is worse than an entire social and legal system that doesn't recognise male victims at all and spits in their face.

They have been marginalized for centuries but you're like "hey I am not getting free educational benefits like you are" I think we both know what's the serious problem here

Again, tell me one legal right that women don't have and men do. I know what the serious problem is, and a lot of it is to do with people like you refusing to believe anything past the dogma you've accepted even when it means that half the world's population goes unnoticed. Furthermore I'd rather be "marginalised" in safety than sent out to be murdered - I'm fairly sure mass graves of young men forced to fight for kings they've never seen is a tad worse than princesses not having as much say in how the country's run as their brother got.

Don't come at me with dogma when you clearly have never done any research past the front page of an abuse site

[AgnesIO]

At the end of the day it's the parents' choice whether they abort a baby - although their reasoning might be unethical to some people. This happens all the time in China - or even worse actually, but I never thought it would happen in the UK tbh.

I'd never discriminate gender-wise about a baby, I wouldn't care what sex I had, it's a baby, it's part of me!

China has been an entirely different story. Their one-child policy has meant for some families it has simply not been seen as viable to have a female child, not to mention some of the techniques used to kill babies in China being completely barbaric.

[Craptarded]

Here is my experience with abortion-- so that guys can understand what a girl has to go through.

I arrive at the clinic, as since i was 6 weeks pregnant, I was able to have the abortion in a clinic, as opposed to a hospital setting. If I had gone to the hospital my parents would of been notified as it would be an over night visit. After I arrive, I signed in and had to fill in a questionnaire about why I wanted the abortion. It even asked how I was feeling about deciding to have the abortion, as well as signing a waiver if anything bad were to happen. As you could probably imagine, it was really hard for me to keep myself together. The clinic had around 25 chairs, most of which were full with other girls, and some even with their own parents, that were going with them.

I handed in my form, and waited for them to call me into their "counselling" room. This is where they strived about getting a one to one moment with a grief counsullar, that could try to help you feel better about your decision, before you go through with it. The counsellar wasnt very compassionate, and it felt like I was on a conveyer belt. They were very brief with me saying "Yes it will hurt. Severe cramping. Youll be fine. Take these pills." I started to have second thoughts, but knew I had to go through with this considering I was in an abusive relationship, and had been pushed down a flight of stairs while pregnant, so the damage was irreversible either way.

I was given a pill of morphine, as well as an anti-anxiety pill. (Those pills do nothing when you are already wound up). There was a back room where you would go and wait for the doctor to call you in to do the actual procedure. The doctor called my name and in I went. I was so nervous, and having a reaction to the morphine pill, and was having a panic attack. They decided it be best after doing an ultrasound to confirm the pregnancy, to give me a sedative intravenously (IV). This calmed me down a bit, but I had alot of chills.

They then used local anesthetic on my cervix (a needle inside you know where). (HURT ALOT!!!!!!!) then the scraping and suction started. The local anesthetic didnt kick in while she (the doctor) was doing the procedure. So I felt everything, the pain was unbearable. I was sweating, but felt cold. (clammy i suppose?). After they had finished scraping, they took me to recovery area for just over an hour, gave me another morphine pill, and water, as well as some cookies to keep blood sugar up. I felt like I was going to pass out. It was the worst experience of my life.

Where was my boyfriend? He was at the movie theatre, and refused to go with me because he promised his friends he'd go. (he promised me prior to, that he'd go with me).

When I left the recovery room to take the bus home (as they say not to drive). I had a text message saying "did u get it over with?" I couldnt believe my boyfriend at the time said that to me. I had just gone through this entire tramatic procedure, with really not having much say in the matter.

Those people that keep saying its the girls fault for getting pregnant, it takes two to make a baby. So yeah, I take great offense to that. You can not judge until you are faced with the decision.

I still think gender based abortions should be ILLEGAL.

Abortions= Should be LEGAL everywhere, and free of judgment (so a doctor cant say no to you).

So for anyone that ever has to face an abortion, please do your research, and talk to your loved one, or family. I wish I did, it would of been easier for me, had I not done it on my own. I regret it every day. If I had continued the pregnancy, my baby would be almost a year old. It hurts alot to be judged, but its to be expected.

[karter]

You're trying to completely overshadow a huge problem just to make a point that "it happens to men too!!!!" I refuse to believe the points bc you're literally handpicking stats where the abuse rate is equal but the fact is that women are victims most of the time. You are really obsessing over the fact that male sexual victims are less likely to come up and report crimes but you don't realise that this is the result of a patriarchal society which women did not invent.

Women are paid less due to their own choices; job for job with the same hours women have the same salaries as men.

Clearly you don't know what you're talking about and are saying that I have not researched the facts while you make outrageous statements with no truth whatsoever

Across industrialized countries, men’s median, full-time earnings were 17.6 percent higher than women’s. The biggest gender wage gap was in South Korea and Japan, where men earn wages more than 30 percent higher than women, and was smallest in Belgium, where the gap is 9.3 percent.In the United States, the typical full-time female worker earns 19 percent less than the typical full-time male worker.

Source:

Source: Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development

1. The average male fulltime worker spends 15% more time than married women with children. This is discrimination in it's purest form bc women and their household responsibilities forces them to work less and hence, lesser wages but this isn't the case for men

2. Men work in uncomfortable and dangerous workplaces which require physical work. This is hardly an excuse..female anatomy doesn't allow women to do equal physical work however some women still engage in mining, construction activities. Unfair comparison.

Regarding sexual abuse in which you claim to have much knowledge in

A study done by the CDC found that 1 in 21 men (4.8%) reported that they had been forced to penetrate someone else, usually a woman.

In 2011, the US Centers for Disease Control found that "nearly 20% of all women" suffered rape or attempted rape sometime in their life. More than a third of the victims were raped before the age of 18.

Any stats you pick, male perpetrators are overwhelming. You seem to be really sensitive towards male victims but the fact that the offender is male most of the time doesn't get in your head. Like I said, I don't rule out male rape and I understand the social stigma a male has to go through to report a rape, but a woman victim has to go through the same amount, how many times have you seen people shaming a male victim? I personally haven't. A woman victim is blamed and questioned even in the socially advanced and highly civilized West :rolleyes:

I think you mentioned armed forces? Well let me tell you that one of the reason women might not want to join them is the fact that nearly all countries literally exclude women from certain posts in the army, if not at all. British Armed Forces for example, excludes women from the combat units in the Army, Royal Marines and Royal Air Force. So why cry about men getting killed in combats when women don't even get a chance?

entire social and legal system that doesn't recognise male victims at all and spits in their face.

No it doesn't. "Not in the Western world anyway"

are you implying that being a male is hard lol?

Yes it is

No it isn't.

[FlyingJesus]

You're trying to completely overshadow a huge problem just to make a point that "it happens to men too!!!!" I refuse to believe the points bc you're literally handpicking stats where the abuse rate is equal but the fact is that women are victims most of the time.

You're trying to overshadow a huge problem to claim that men aren't equally attacked when the stats (hand-picked!) show that they are. You have literally just said to me here "you have stats but they're wrong ok women are victims more I know this because". That is not an argument, that is perpetuating lies for the sake of wanting to be right

You are really obsessing over the fact that male sexual victims are less likely to come up and report crimes but you don't realise that this is the result of a patriarchal society which women did not invent.

Neither did men. There wasn't some secret cabal where every male in existence sat down and said right chaps how can we oppress women today. If there was, I doubt they'd have sent themselves forward to do the dying and backbreaking labour, they'd have simply made women all-purpose slaves. Gender roles evolved naturally as can be seen in just about every primate, and while they're certainly damaging in modern metropolitan life (which is why I oppose them) they are damaging to everyone

Clearly you don't know what you're talking about and are saying that I have not researched the facts while you make outrageous statements with no truth whatsoever

Psssst those are still caused by the woman's choice. You straight away go on to say

1. The average male fulltime worker spends 15% more time than married women with children. This is discrimination in it's purest form bc women and their household responsibilities forces them to work less and hence, lesser wages but this isn't the case for men

Which is purely infantalising women by claiming that they can't make their own choices. The same stat can be used to suggest that it's discrimination against men because their financial responsibilities (which show them as a wage packet and not even a human being) force them to work more and hence less time with their children or in leisure. Note also that while men are the primary earners in the Western world, women are the primary spenders. This money isn't going into some patriarchy fund for old white men to buy ankle chains for their kitchen-imprisoned concubines. As for the gap itself, no-one claims that there isn't one at all, but it certainly isn't because the world hates women

2. Men work in uncomfortable and dangerous workplaces which require physical work. This is hardly an excuse..female anatomy doesn't allow women to do equal physical work however some women still engage in mining, construction activities. Unfair comparison.

Hey you're the one who brought up positional equivalence and the apex fallacy. I'm not advocating for women to be drafted into dangerous jobs, just pointing out that a few men in power doesn't mean all men share the benefits

Regarding sexual abuse in which you claim to have much knowledge in



Any stats you pick, male perpetrators are overwhelming. You seem to be really sensitive towards male victims but the fact that the offender is male most of the time doesn't get in your head.

If you actually read the CDC study (I linked to it and a discussion of it in my previous post, but here it is again) the stats do not show male perps as overwhelming, they show "forced to penetrate" as nearly equal to "forced to be penetrated", it's just that one of those gets called rape and the other is brushed off by society and the law. The actual split is about 60/40, far closer than anyone would think by looking at the gynocentric media - and regardless of who's doing the attacking, the fact remains that victimhood is equal at the most moderate estimations. If prison rape is factored in then males outnumber females in victimhood by staggering numbers, and here 94% of sexually abused youths in detainment report a female attacker and 65% in adult facilities likewise. Apologies for once again picking stats that show reality rather than just parroting phrases that have no backing

Like I said, I don't rule out male rape

Clearly you do since you claim that men are the biggest perpetrators when the very study you're using shows that 80% of raped men were raped by women

and I understand the social stigma a male has to go through to report a rape, but a woman victim has to go through the same amount, how many times have you seen people shaming a male victim? I personally haven't. A woman victim is blamed and questioned even in the socially advanced and highly civilized West :rolleyes:

Well as a victim I have seen it quite a lot thank you. You personally not having seen something doesn't make it not so, and how many times have you even seen someone coming forward as a male victim? Or recognised as a victim when they do? On the rare occasion that a female raping a male makes it to the news the comments are overwhelmingly of the "wow what a lucky guy" and "haha you go girl" variety

I think you mentioned armed forces? Well let me tell you that one of the reason women might not want to join them is the fact that nearly all countries literally exclude women from certain posts in the army, if not at all. British Armed Forces for example, excludes women from the combat units in the Army, Royal Marines and Royal Air Force. So why cry about men getting killed in combats when women don't even get a chance?

I think you mentioned parenthood? Well let me tell you that one of the reasons men might not want to be a stay at home dad is the fact that nearly all countries literally exclude males from society when they aren't a financial success. Divorce rates for example, increase hugely among couples where the male is out of work even among families with wealth enough to not require him to be. So why cry about women getting left in the safety of the home when men don't even get a chance?

No it doesn't. "Not in the Western world anyway"

Yeah let's ignore the stats and figures I gave on how the legal system is biased against males and how the law doesn't even recognise female on male rape as a possibility. Let's put all that to one side, refuse once again to give an example of how women are legally oppressed and just continue claiming that men have it good in all walks of life

No it isn't.

Harder than being a woman apparently