Ireland to vote on EU Lisbon Treaty in October

[alexxxxx]

So we do need to do all that just to get our so called friends and allies to help us?. Do you really think Iran gives ones or even remotely cares about what the European Union has to say, especially when the majority of its citzens do not even want it?

FOR HEAVENS SAKE KNOCK IT OFF. THE LISBON TREATY LOST BY 3% POINTS IN IRELAND. THREE GOD-DAMN POINTS. The Irish have got some legal safeguards in place for themselves and now it is expected to pass as the polls suggest. It's called a freaking compromise.

Yes, Iran cares. Iran cares because we trade with them. We buy their goods, they buy ours. We cut them off, they'll lose, not us.

I'd prefer not to use a European Union channel thanks, I prefer history which is solid fact, you know like the example we have given of Europe trading fine with the EU for hundreds, if not thousands of years before the European Union existed?

This is what it sounds like to me: LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA IM NOT LISTENING, I'M JUST THINKING ABOUT MY OWN NARROWMINDED VIEWS ON THE WORLD AND HOW I WISH THAT I WAS AN UPPER CLASS SNOB IN THE 19TH CENTURY WHEN BRITAIN WAS GREAT. LALALALALALALALALLALALALALAA RULE BRITANIA BRITANIA RULES THE WAVES...... LALALALALALALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING! DON'T TELL ME FACTS! Read up on what they are DOING. What they have DONE. How they have revolutionised us. At least READ some of the website. See what your campaign is against. The EU is elected. The commision is sent by the ELECTED governement and the parliament is ELECTED. The parliament gets a say with who is in and out of the comission and they have the power to sack the comission. Ultimately, the parliament has the power.

The FACT is that if we don't interact with the EU at ALL, our goods will be 6% more expensive at the border. At LEAST 6%. If we join the EEA we will get free trade, but we will still have to let people in and out as they please and we won't get any say on any laws that pass that will actually affect us. If we leave altogether, hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) will lose there jobs as they can no longer trade freely with europe again, plus the hundreds of thousands of brits living in Spain, France and Germany will all have to come back here. On the other way, there will be a few hundred thousands of poles and other E Europeans going back the other way. Inflation will rise. It's alright looking at the past, but looking AHEAD this would be the problem. You revel in the past, it's not coming back, you can't send time the other way around.

Sorry for flaming but eh. It's what i feel. Whenever i argue against you, you just use the same arguments AGAIN AND AGAIN even when i've already argued against them.

[-:Undertaker:-]

LOL you used the example I gave in another thread and completely turned it on its head!

With the EU you get something back as other countries put into the big pot which we can take out of (see what Thatcher did with Agriculture in the 80's). With independence theres no external change so you end up paying more to keep British industries afloat.

Please dont highlight that as how the EU operates. Look onto the site alexxx posted and you can find out what Im trying to tell you.

When the United Kingdom orginally signed up to the European project many, many farms closed, particulary apple farms were made worthless overnight as cheaper varieties from countrys around Europe were made avalible - that isn't helping us, that is DAMAGING US. Having a giant central economy is not good economics, we have seen it in all socialist countrys and it has failed, time upon time again.

The important lesson we learnt from Margaret Thatcher and the lesson which some of us still need to learn, is not to keep unprofitable industries afloat, of course socialism will never understand this.

FOR HEAVENS SAKE KNOCK IT OFF. THE LISBON TREATY LOST BY 3% POINTS IN IRELAND. THREE GOD-DAMN POINTS. The Irish have got some legal safeguards in place for themselves and now it is expected to pass as the polls suggest. It's called a freaking compromise.

Yes, Iran cares. Iran cares because we trade with them. We buy their goods, they buy ours. We cut them off, they'll lose, not us.
This is what it sounds like to me: LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA IM NOT LISTENING, I'M JUST THINKING ABOUT MY OWN NARROWMINDED VIEWS ON THE WORLD AND HOW I WISH THAT I WAS AN UPPER CLASS SNOB IN THE 19TH CENTURY WHEN BRITAIN WAS GREAT. LALALALALALALALALLALALALALAA RULE BRITANIA BRITANIA RULES THE WAVES...... LALALALALALALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING! DON'T TELL ME FACTS! Read up on what they are DOING. What they have DONE. How they have revolutionised us. At least READ some of the website. See what your campaign is against. The EU is elected. The commision is sent by the ELECTED governement and the parliament is ELECTED. The parliament gets a say with who is in and out of the comission and they have the power to sack the comission. Ultimately, the parliament has the power.

The FACT is that if we don't interact with the EU at ALL, our goods will be 6% more expensive at the border. At LEAST 6%. If we join the EEA we will get free trade, but we will still have to let people in and out as they please and we won't get any say on any laws that pass that will actually affect us. If we leave altogether, hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) will lose there jobs as they can no longer trade freely with europe again, plus the hundreds of thousands of brits living in Spain, France and Germany will all have to come back here. On the other way, there will be a few hundred thousands of poles and other E Europeans going back the other way. Inflation will rise. It's alright looking at the past, but looking AHEAD this would be the problem. You revel in the past, it's not coming back, you can't send time the other way around.

Sorry for flaming but eh. It's what i feel. Whenever i argue against you, you just use the same arguments AGAIN AND AGAIN even when i've already argued against them.

How is the European Union democratic when we aren't given a choice on whether we want it or not and the commision which holds the power is not elected either?

The treaty LOST.

It LOST in the NETHERLANDS.
It LOST in FRANCE.
It LOST in the REPUBLIC OF IRELAND.

Too right I think we're a great country, we are still a world power and destroyed socialism in the 1980s along with the fall of the Soviet Union, we are stronger than most countrys around the world and yet they are not part of the European Union. Basically your argument is that we should give up, and just sign away our powers to Europe who we fought against in two world wars. Why did we even bother fighting Hitler & the Nazis when we are going to sign OUR SOVEREIGN POWERS away to unelected & unwanted eurocrats in Brussels?

These people would NOT be sent home, that is a damn lie. If these people from around Europe were sent back to the United Kingdom that would have a devestating effect on the economies around Europe, especially countrys such as the Kingdom of Spain. IT WOULD NOT HAPPEN. What would happen if we left the EU? - we would arrange free market style trade agreements with individual European countrys just like we had done for the past 1,000 years.

Why do you think the farmers and fishermen aorund Europe do not want the European Union? - they know better than me, they know better than you and they know better than the European Union itself.

I am in the past, the past where we ruled ourselves and when people had a say, your European dream would end tommorow if the people of Europe were given a say.

[GommeInc]

The FACT is that if we don't interact with the EU at ALL, our goods will be 6% more expensive at the border. At LEAST 6%. If we join the EEA we will get free trade,

As far as I can tell, that's due to the EU and they're the ones to blame for the 6% rise. Who sets that level? The EU, because individual countries cannot/would not set that level. It's like individual businesses trading with one another, they'll do it easily and for cheap (or free) because they need to trade to grow. It's why companies don't trade off their goods with a percentage of interest on top of it, instead, the sell of their goods for less than what consumers would buy them for - Sort of like VAT free rules.

An example could be at school. Individuals can trade their lunch for other food. Then individuals form a group, and they want to sell off their lunch with an extra percentage on-top of that - so a sandwich plus 20p. That 6% rise would only exist, because the EU have made it exist, that 6% would actually cease to exist if the EU weren't anti-competitive.

The only thing that I seem to agree on is free-trading and freedom to go around the EU, of course with limits. I don't agree with the idea of the EU signing away national identity. Soon people will refer to France as "the EU" because that's how the EU will market itself.

[alexxxxx]

When the United Kingdom orginally signed up to the European project many, many farms closed, particulary apple farms were made worthless overnight as cheaper varieties from countrys around Europe were made avalible - that isn't helping us, that is DAMAGING US. Having a giant central economy is not good economics, we have seen it in all socialist countrys and it has failed, time upon time again.

The important lesson we learnt from Margaret Thatcher and the lesson which some of us still need to learn, is not to keep unprofitable industries afloat, of course socialism will never understand this.

Are you an absolute idiot? Those farms stopped working well because they were too expensive to run! The consumers were paying more for goods that they were actually worth. If we already had this 1000 year old treaty with europe to trade freely THOSE FARMS WOULD BE ALREADY GONE. The EU is not a central economy apart from food supply, as without subsidies or price-control mechanisms, food becomes too cheap for farmers to be able to make a living. Rampant inflation. Ask people who have farms and alot of them need to survive on EU subsidies.

How is the European Union democratic when we aren't given a choice on whether we want it or not and the commision which holds the power is not elected either?

The treaty LOST.

It LOST in the NETHERLANDS.
It LOST in FRANCE.
It LOST in the REPUBLIC OF IRELAND.

Elected Commsion (via our ELECTED governments), Elected Parliament (by the people) and the elected parliament have the power to sack the comission. 'The EU is unlelected' is NOT an argument, cause it just isn't true. If we voted on every law, treaty we sign, law we pass, what is the point in voting in our MPs to do the job. It underminds parliament.

Too right I think we're a great country, we are still a world power and destroyed socialism in the 1980s along with the fall of the Soviet Union, we are stronger than most countrys around the world and yet they are not part of the European Union. Basically your argument is that we should give up, and just sign away our powers to Europe who we fought against in two world wars. Why did we even bother fighting Hitler & the Nazis when we are going to sign OUR SOVEREIGN POWERS away to unelected & unwanted eurocrats in Brussels?

'Europe' that we fought in the 2 world wars. GIVE ME A BREAK. XENOPHOBE. BELIEVE IT OR NOT BUT THE GERMANS DON'T WANT THE UK ANYMORE. Because we fought some fascists 60 years ago doesn't mean they are the same anymore. Unelected, no, Unwanted, no.

These people would NOT be sent home, that is a damn lie. If these people from around Europe were sent back to the United Kingdom that would have a devestating effect on the economies around Europe, especially countrys such as the Kingdom of Spain. IT WOULD NOT HAPPEN. What would happen if we left the EU? - we would arrange free market style trade agreements with individual European countrys just like we had done for the past 1,000 years.

There has been NO free markety style agreements with EU countries like the past 1000 years. And to have free market solutions with the EU with free movement of labour, capital and goods you would need to join the EEA, which still means having to abide by EU law, with having no say in it. The only upside is that we'd have to pay less in contributions.

Why is what i have said is a lie? There is no legal reason why they'd be allowed to stay. The spanish here would have to pack up their bags and leave too? Why is it that British pensioners, that do nothing in the Spanish economy but use their healthcare and spend a small amount of money into the economy stay. Why would the country that has 10% unemployment rate (or more) want to keep those british people that have jobs in the market?

I am in the past, the past where we ruled ourselves and when people had a say, your European dream would end tommorow if the people of Europe were given a say.

The people WANT a union, the people WANT free trade, the people WANT to move from one country to the next, therefore they WANT the EU.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Are you an absolute idiot? Those farms stopped working well because they were too expensive to run! The consumers were paying more for goods that they were actually worth. If we already had this 1000 year old treaty with europe to trade freely THOSE FARMS WOULD BE ALREADY GONE. The EU is not a central economy apart from food supply, as without subsidies or price-control mechanisms, food becomes too cheap for farmers to be able to make a living. Rampant inflation. Ask people who have farms and alot of them need to survive on EU subsidies.


Elected Commsion (via our ELECTED governments), Elected Parliament (by the people) and the elected parliament have the power to sack the comission. 'The EU is unlelected' is NOT an argument, cause it just isn't true. If we voted on every law, treaty we sign, law we pass, what is the point in voting in our MPs to do the job. It underminds parliament.


'Europe' that we fought in the 2 world wars. GIVE ME A BREAK. XENOPHOBE. BELIEVE IT OR NOT BUT THE GERMANS DON'T WANT THE UK ANYMORE. Because we fought some fascists 60 years ago doesn't mean they are the same anymore. Unelected, no, Unwanted, no.


There has been NO free markety style agreements with EU countries like the past 1000 years. And to have free market solutions with the EU with free movement of labour, capital and goods you would need to join the EEA, which still means having to abide by EU law, with having no say in it. The only upside is that we'd have to pay less in contributions.

Why is what i have said is a lie? There is no legal reason why they'd be allowed to stay. The spanish here would have to pack up their bags and leave too? Why is it that British pensioners, that do nothing in the Spanish economy but use their healthcare and spend a small amount of money into the economy stay. Why would the country that has 10% unemployment rate (or more) want to keep those british people that have jobs in the market?


The people WANT a union, the people WANT free trade, the people WANT to move from one country to the next, therefore they WANT the EU.

We never had a 1,000 year old treaty with Europe, nobody said we did. My point is that we have traded with Europe for the past 1,000+ years fine without the European Union. The European Union is a central economy, otherwise it wouldn't exist. Central means all together, the EU is all together in economic terms and sadly political terms. Free market means countrys are able to set their own prices/buy whatever they wish and trade on their own, its also known as independance. Have we lost the ability to trade all of a sudden?

How is something that is chosen without an election, elected? - in other words, its not elected!

Your right!, the Germans don't want the United Kingdom. This time we are fighting burocratic idiots within Brussels who are all left wing failures in their own countrys; Tony Blair, Neil Kinnock & Peter Mandelson. What is so hard to understand that people do not want European Union?

Free market isn't a collective agreement, it isn't a union. Free market is independant, therefore is doesn't need billions spent on it, it doesn't need national sovereignty to be taken away and it doesn't need large treaties which want control over all other aspects of national sovereignty. A union is not free market.

I think your forgetting what the rest of the world do to sort problems such as that out, they sign independant agreements between themselves, just like we did for a thousand years and just like the rest of the world still does, without the European Union. The Kingdom of Spain and various other countrys around Europe would not want the British to leave as that would ruin local property markets and economies, therefore the British and Spanish governments would sign an agreement on the status of them people living abroad - so simple its unbelievable.

I can't believe your saying people want the European Union, i'll ask you again; is that why no government will give the people of Europe a referendum on the EUs' existance and secondly, why did the EU constitution & lisbon treaty get voted down, in three countrys?

Why do you honestly think the European Union & the governments of Europe will not give the people of Europe referendums when it comes to the European Union? - because they will lose.

[alexxxxx]

We never had a 1,000 year old treaty with Europe, nobody said we did. My point is that we have traded with Europe for the past 1,000+ years fine without the European Union. The European Union is a central economy, otherwise it wouldn't exist. Central means all together, the EU is all together in economic terms and sadly political terms. Free market means countrys are able to set their own prices/buy whatever they wish and trade on their own, its also known as independance. Have we lost the ability to trade all of a sudden?

The world 1000 years ago (or even 100 years ago) was alot different. We didn't have such integrated markets as we do now, no global brands and our countries wered much less specialised. We have had good economic grwoth since we joined the EU. Better than ever before
You said:

we would arrange free market style trade agreements with individual European countrys just like we had done for the past 1,000 years.

What? Who said we didn't have agreements for free trade before the EU? YOU DID.

How is something that is chosen without an election, elected? - in other words, its not elected!

The cabinet isn't elected, the prime minister isn't elected, the house of lords isn't elected, the supreme court in the USA isn't elected. But you'd still call those democratic systems. The elected government places who they want there. If you don't trust who they'd put there YOU DON'T VOTE FOR THEM.

Your right!, the Germans don't want the United Kingdom. This time we are fighting burocratic idiots within Brussels who are all left wing failures in their own countrys; Tony Blair, Neil Kinnock & Peter Mandelson. What is so hard to understand that people do not want European Union?

The dutch got 60% no, the Irish got 53% no and the french got 55% no. Saying no to the treaty doesn't mean no to the EU altogether. Some people would have been unhappy with the new changes. bringing it back to at least 50/50. If not more pro-yes. I find it very hard because of this to understand that people don't want the EU.

Free market isn't a collective agreement, it isn't a union. Free market is independant, therefore is doesn't need billions spent on it, it doesn't need national sovereignty to be taken away and it doesn't need large treaties which want control over all other aspects of national sovereignty. A union is not free market.

A Common/Free market DOES need a collective agreement or it won't work, it needs safeguards, legaly binding agreements and people to ensure these agreements are taken place. A free treade agreement IS a union, a trade-bloc. It does need money spending on and technically it does erode some national sovereignty as every good should be allowed in and out.

I think your forgetting what the rest of the world do to sort problems such as that out, they sign independant agreements between themselves, just like we did for a thousand years and just like the rest of the world still does, without the European Union. The Kingdom of Spain and various other countrys around Europe would not want the British to leave as that would ruin local property markets and economies, therefore the British and Spanish governments would sign an agreement on the status of them people living abroad - so simple its unbelievable.

The rest of the world does make trading blocs. The EU IS an agreement between the EU member states. It is currently a union between states and not above them. It really isn't that simple. Spain is currently within the Shengen area, so techincally, the people who go to live in Shengen area are eligible to live everywhere else, plus goods and services are free to move from place to place. Therefore, we wouldn't be able to sign a treaty with just spain, we'd have to sign up to the EEA. Which is the 2nd class citizen approach to the EU, where you have to obey the rules, but with no say in how they are made. It isn't as simple as you'd think.

I can't believe your saying people want the European Union, i'll ask you again; is that why no government will give the people of Europe a referendum on the EUs' existance and secondly, why did the EU constitution & lisbon treaty get voted down, in three countrys?

Why do you honestly think the European Union & the governments of Europe will not give the people of Europe referendums when it comes to the European Union? - because they will lose.

The people of Europe have the chance to vote on the EU every time they vote for a pro-EU party and you have to remember that the majority of EU states have PR.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The world 1000 years ago (or even 100 years ago) was alot different. We didn't have such integrated markets as we do now, no global brands and our countries wered much less specialised. We have had good economic grwoth since we joined the EU. Better than ever before
You said:

It wasn't that much different, the financial parts of other countrys which are not part of the European Union have not collapsed due to them not being a part of the European Union, so why would ours? - Also we have had good economic growth thanks to free markets, not the European Union. I think you are forgetting the real reason why we have been turned around as a country, Margaret Thatcher. She was the one who reversed post-war decline, she was the one with Ronald Reagan who helped finish off socialism and let capitalism spread and she was the one we owe thanks to, not, and never the European Union.

What? Who said we didn't have agreements for free trade before the EU? YOU DID.

Indeed, and you will notice the key word there; individual, meaning independant trade agreements.

The cabinet isn't elected, the prime minister isn't elected, the house of lords isn't elected, the supreme court in the USA isn't elected. But you'd still call those democratic systems. The elected government places who they want there. If you don't trust who they'd put there YOU DON'T VOTE FOR THEM.

The Cabinet is elected via their electoral region, the cabinet, prime minister, house of lords, supreme court are all for their country, meaning a very simple thing; they think of their country first and foremost. If the elected government was so democratic as you say it is, why are they not giving us a referendum on European Union and that applies both to the Labour Party (first and foremost) and the Conservative Party included.

The dutch got 60% no, the Irish got 53% no and the french got 55% no. Saying no to the treaty doesn't mean no to the EU altogether. Some people would have been unhappy with the new changes. bringing it back to at least 50/50. If not more pro-yes. I find it very hard because of this to understand that people don't want the EU.

Nobody said all of the European population doesn't want the European Union, my point is that the majority do not want the European Union -therefore its existance is invalid. Why do you think nobody will give us a referendum on the European Union, or even its reformal?

A Common/Free market DOES need a collective agreement or it won't work, it needs safeguards, legaly binding agreements and people to ensure these agreements are taken place. A free treade agreement IS a union, a trade-bloc. It does need money spending on and technically it does erode some national sovereignty as every good should be allowed in and out.

That is not free then, collective market is not free marketism. Collective is another word for command, all together just as socialism has always argued for yet with all togetherness, command, collectivism it creates problems and does not work, hence the failed states of the Soviet Union and North Korea. Indeed it does erode national sovereignty, just like the Soviet Union eroded the sovereignty of Eastern Europe - do we want that? - no, we do not and that is why we fought a world war and a cold war to not have that sort of system placed upon us.

The rest of the world does make trading blocs. The EU IS an agreement between the EU member states. It is currently a union between states and not above them. It really isn't that simple. Spain is currently within the Shengen area, so techincally, the people who go to live in Shengen area are eligible to live everywhere else, plus goods and services are free to move from place to place. Therefore, we wouldn't be able to sign a treaty with just spain, we'd have to sign up to the EEA. Which is the 2nd class citizen approach to the EU, where you have to obey the rules, but with no say in how they are made. It isn't as simple as you'd think.

The rest of the world does make trading blocs, however those trading blocs are not aiming to become superstates and those trading blocs are independant, they do not have the extensive systems the European Union is setting up. You have just highlighted another problem and an example of the European Union being a dictatorship superstate, you have just said how Spain would be unable to sign a independant agreement with the United Kingdom due to the European Union - need I say much more?

It is very simple, but you, just like all the eurocrats boast about how the normal people do not understand the European Union and hence why we do not deserve a vote on whether or not we want it. Just like the Labour Party and Caroline Flint (Europe Minister at that time) said, despite herself not reading the treaty. Once the 'people do not understand/its not as simple as you think' argument is used, people can see right through the argument and can see very clearly that the aim is, and always has been a European Union superstate.

Which is the 2nd class citizen approach to the EU, where you have to obey the rules, but with no say in how they are made. It isn't as simple as you'd think.

No you do have a say in it, the only way to get a say in that would be to threaten to leave and they'd soon conform to your demands because the European Union hates the word no, it cannot bear the word. We have no say in how things are made right now, over 75% of our laws come from the European Union whether we agree with them or not - is that democracy when a foreign parliament is telling our parliament, government and people what to do? - no it is not.

The people of Europe have the chance to vote on the EU every time they vote for a pro-EU party and you have to remember that the majority of EU states have PR.

That is the best reply you can come up with? - well that just shows you know if we got our wish (a vote) the European Union would end overnight and Europe would once again be full of sovereign, independant states making their own laws for their own land, and making their own treaties where needed between each country, of which each country could terminate their treaties at anytime, also known as democracy.

[alexxxxx]

It wasn't that much different, the financial parts of other countrys which are not part of the European Union have not collapsed due to them not being a part of the European Union, so why would ours? - Also we have had good economic growth thanks to free markets, not the European Union. I think you are forgetting the real reason why we have been turned around as a country, Margaret Thatcher. She was the one who reversed post-war decline, she was the one with Ronald Reagan who helped finish off socialism and let capitalism spread and she was the one we owe thanks to, not, and never the European Union.

Free markets that the EU provide... That's why the orchards had to close. The 'free markets' we had before with the EU obviously weren't the same or those orchards wouldn't have been the same when we joined.
[/QUOTE]

Indeed, and you will notice the key word there; individual, meaning independant trade agreements.

Yes, but this ISN'T possible anymore. If we pull out of the EU, it's IMPOSSIBLE to have free trade agreements with individual states because there is no internal borders! Have you ever travelled from France to Germany, France to Italy? You will notice all there is is a sign with the country name on. It's impossible to setup solo free trade agreement with France and not Spain because Spanish people can send their goods via France, which is what they do now anyway! This approach CANNOT work. It is YOU that doesn't understand how it works.

The Cabinet is elected via their electoral region, the cabinet, prime minister, house of lords, supreme court are all for their country, meaning a very simple thing; they think of their country first and foremost. If the elected government was so democratic as you say it is, why are they not giving us a referendum on European Union and that applies both to the Labour Party (first and foremost) and the Conservative Party included.

This isn't the case. Mandelson was not elected, Brown made him a peer and then let him join the cabinet. This 'they think of their country first and foremost' is true in the Europe as well.

Nobody said all of the European population doesn't want the European Union, my point is that the majority do not want the European Union -therefore its existance is invalid. Why do you think nobody will give us a referendum on the European Union, or even its reformal?

What? You have no grounds to believe that the majority of the population don't want the EU. This argument is baseless.

That is not free then, collective market is not free marketism. Collective is another word for command, all together just as socialism has always argued for yet with all togetherness, command, collectivism it creates problems and does not work, hence the failed states of the Soviet Union and North Korea. Indeed it does erode national sovereignty, just like the Soviet Union eroded the sovereignty of Eastern Europe - do we want that? - no, we do not and that is why we fought a world war and a cold war to not have that sort of system placed upon us.

WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT? WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT? WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT? What I meant about a collective agreement is an agreement made between a group of states 'collectively.' This has nothing to do with socialism at all? Do you even know what a free market is? Because what we have is quite close to a free market.

The rest of the world does make trading blocs, however those trading blocs are not aiming to become superstates and those trading blocs are independant, they do not have the extensive systems the European Union is setting up. You have just highlighted another problem and an example of the European Union being a dictatorship superstate, you have just said how Spain would be unable to sign a independant agreement with the United Kingdom due to the European Union - need I say much more?

It's impossible to make an independant agreement because of the lack of border controls. We still have our border controls (apart from with the ROI). It is possible to be in the EU without the Schengen zone (Uk and Eire) are proof. If we got preferential treatment, the rest of the EU would have problems with Norway/Switzerland/Iceland as these are members of the EEA or have similiar treaties in place.

It is very simple, but you, just like all the eurocrats boast about how the normal people do not understand the European Union and hence why we do not deserve a vote on whether or not we want it. Just like the Labour Party and Caroline Flint (Europe Minister at that time) said, despite herself not reading the treaty. Once the 'people do not understand/its not as simple as you think' argument is used, people can see right through the argument and can see very clearly that the aim is, and always has been a European Union superstate.

You just don't understand the complexities. I've told you why it's impossible to sign independant treaties because of the border situation. This has nothing to do with us. We are not subject to these border issues because we are not a member of the schengen agreement. EU nationals still have to show ID when visiting the UK and the other way round. It is evident that normal people don't understand the EU because YOU don't undestand the EU. It made perfect sense for mainland europeans to remove their borders because it would reduce their costs.

No you do have a say in it, the only way to get a say in that would be to threaten to leave and they'd soon conform to your demands because the European Union hates the word no, it cannot bear the word. We have no say in how things are made right now, over 75% of our laws come from the European Union whether we agree with them or not - is that democracy when a foreign parliament is telling our parliament, government and people what to do? - no it is not.

Then make the EU work more for us. That's what the french do, that's what the germans do. But because the british public are fed rubbish and lies from News International (who have been allowed to become so big and to control the media of this country and therefore to control british politics by the tories) who are worried about EU regulations on them, outside of their control. The EU parliament isn't a foreign parliament. It's our parliament. Only EU nationals are allowed to stand in parliaments and be in the comission. It isn't foreign.

That is the best reply you can come up with? - well that just shows you know if we got our wish (a vote) the European Union would end overnight and Europe would once again be full of sovereign, independant states making their own laws for their own land, and making their own treaties where needed between each country, of which each country could terminate their treaties at anytime, also known as democracy.

Well it doesn't happen does it? Because when you vote for a party you are voting for all their policies. You can't pick and choose. That's how a democracy works. If the EU-haters keep voting tory, they won't get out of the EU anytime soon for the torys have too many mates with big business who rely on the EU and because the torys have no plan on leaving. It's how democracy works. If everyone who didn't support the EU went to UKIP, maybe they'd have a chance at getting us out. But it doesn't happen, probably because people don't actually mind the EU that much. If the EU is hated by the majority of other european states, why haven't france/nl gone as they have PR governments. Oh wait, it's because they don't hate it. If Ireland hate the EU so much, why are the polls showing they are going to pass the Lisbon Treaty. Because they don't hate the EU. This is democracy. Refferenda aren't democracy and just produce polarised results. The EU isn't just a yes/no answer. It's about how to approach the EU, how we want to steer it etc.

Learn about these things (not from the daily mail) and come back:

- Free Markets
- The EU
- Schengen Agreement/Area
- Free Trade
- EEA

[-:Undertaker:-]

Free markets that the EU provide... That's why the orchards had to close. The 'free markets' we had before with the EU obviously weren't the same or those orchards wouldn't have been the same when we joined.

What is it about the word free and free markets you don't understand, you have gone from collective to free market in this argument - which is it!? - you can't have both!

Yes, but this ISN'T possible anymore. If we pull out of the EU, it's IMPOSSIBLE to have free trade agreements with individual states because there is no internal borders! Have you ever travelled from France to Germany, France to Italy? You will notice all there is is a sign with the country name on. It's impossible to setup solo free trade agreement with France and not Spain because Spanish people can send their goods via France, which is what they do now anyway! This approach CANNOT work. It is YOU that doesn't understand how it works.

In your logic then, because these countrys no longer have border controls they cannot set up trade agreements with other countrys? - you have just made this up. This approach can work, it has worked for the past 1,000+ years and is still working all around the world. You saying internal borders have been abolished (which they have not, not yet anyway) just goes to show what you eurocrats really want, the erosion of the Europe and the creation of a superstate.

This isn't the case. Mandelson was not elected, Brown made him a peer and then let him join the cabinet. This 'they think of their country first and foremost' is true in the Europe as well.

How are they thinking of their country first when they are not elected by their country, they have let various laws from the European Union be imposed on us and finally have signed away our rebate along with Tony Blair without any protest? - are you seriously suggesting that these idiots are defending our country in the European Union?

What? You have no grounds to believe that the majority of the population don't want the EU. This argument is baseless.

Hang on, firstly the reformal of the European Union (when put to a referendum) to the French, Dutch and Irish was turned down, the people said NO.

Secondly, why do you think no government will give its people a referendum on European Union membership? - because it would LOSE.

WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT? WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT? WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT? What I meant about a collective agreement is an agreement made between a group of states 'collectively.' This has nothing to do with socialism at all? Do you even know what a free market is? Because what we have is quite close to a free market.

Collectivism is not free marketism, collectivism is what the Soviet Union had and what socialist states tend to have, the system the European Union has set up is the same. Free market has the word free in it for a reason.

It's impossible to make an independant agreement because of the lack of border controls. We still have our border controls (apart from with the ROI). It is possible to be in the EU without the Schengen zone (Uk and Eire) are proof. If we got preferential treatment, the rest of the EU would have problems with Norway/Switzerland/Iceland as these are members of the EEA or have similiar treaties in place.

Hang on, so because some other countrys who want a European Union superstate wouldn't like us retaining some sovereignty we should give it up? - come off it - if you and the European Union ever want to win over the people that certainly isn't the way to argue the case for European Union and sovereignty.

You just don't understand the complexities. I've told you why it's impossible to sign independant treaties because of the border situation. This has nothing to do with us. We are not subject to these border issues because we are not a member of the schengen agreement. EU nationals still have to show ID when visiting the UK and the other way round. It is evident that normal people don't understand the EU because YOU don't undestand the EU. It made perfect sense for mainland europeans to remove their borders because it would reduce their costs.

Borders have nothing to do with sovereignty and trade agreements. Before the European Union was about goods still were driven around Europe because of individual trade agreements between countrys. I really don't understand you eurocrats' logic. You had the EU reform turned down in three referendums, how many times do people have to say no before you get the message?

Then make the EU work more for us. That's what the french do, that's what the germans do. But because the british public are fed rubbish and lies from News International (who have been allowed to become so big and to control the media of this country and therefore to control british politics by the tories) who are worried about EU regulations on them, outside of their control. The EU parliament isn't a foreign parliament. It's our parliament. Only EU nationals are allowed to stand in parliaments and be in the comission. It isn't foreign.

Ahh here we go again, "the press are mind controlling us all!" - NO.
I think its a disgrace you have the nerve do say the British public don't know how to make up their mind on the European Union. Do you know why all these papers are so successful compared to the Guardian which has to be subsidised to keep running? - because people agree with them papers.

Don't use that tactic again about the "evil right wing media brainwashing us all" because there is a left wing option there, the Guardian, but due to its low circulation and it having to be subsidised to keep running I wouldn't say its a pretty popular read. Sales figures say everything.

The European Parliament is foreign, it doesn't have our interests at heart, it is in another country and we never asked or wanted it to create 75% of our laws.

Well it doesn't happen does it? Because when you vote for a party you are voting for all their policies. You can't pick and choose. That's how a democracy works. If the EU-haters keep voting tory, they won't get out of the EU anytime soon for the torys have too many mates with big business who rely on the EU and because the torys have no plan on leaving. It's how democracy works. If everyone who didn't support the EU went to UKIP, maybe they'd have a chance at getting us out. But it doesn't happen, probably because people don't actually mind the EU that much. If the EU is hated by the majority of other european states, why haven't france/nl gone as they have PR governments. Oh wait, it's because they don't hate it. If Ireland hate the EU so much, why are the polls showing they are going to pass the Lisbon Treaty. Because they don't hate the EU. This is democracy. Refferenda aren't democracy and just produce polarised results. The EU isn't just a yes/no answer. It's about how to approach the EU, how we want to steer it etc.

No, referendums are democracy, they are more democratic than elections themselves. Let us take a look back at 2005 when the Labour Party promised the British people that if Labour were to get into office again we would have a referendum on the reformal of the European Union. - We are now not having a referendum. Once in power they can do what the hell they bloody well like and its no wonder people don't bother with politics anymore.

Ireland have benefitted from the European Union, if the Republic of Ireland would not have had the European Union then the investment they have had/have now would not be sustainable on their own due to them being a small country. If we are using the PR argument then how about this; how strange is it that the two euro-sceptic partys (Conservatives & UKIP) both beat the Labour Party and other pro-EU partys at the European Elections which were PR?

As for the Republic of Ireland, if I was them i'd milk the European Union for all I could get for as long as possible, and then leave. The reason why I, as a British citzen want them to fail the treaty is because it means by that time a Conservative government coming into office and giving us a referendum on the treaty, which would then mean the treaty declared dead on the floor.

The Republic of Ireland said no the first time, why is this answer not good enough?

Learn about these things (not from the daily mail) and come back:

- Free Markets
- The EU
- Schengen Agreement/Area
- Free Trade
- EEA

I think the most important thing for you and the European Union to learn is that when people say no, that means no.

Maybe in future when referendums are held on the EU, or even at the next referendum in the Republic of Ireland, the voting card should just have two yes answers on it because that is what the EU wants, I wonder if the Republic of Ireland say yes this time, in a years time from then will the EU be asking them the same question again, just to make sure they are still comfortable with their decision?

Didn't think so.

[LuketheDuke]

Undertaker from a neutral point of view the previous poster has asked you to look up on a certain number of organisations and has even at times given you links to try and develop this argument further yet you aren't really communicating with whats being proposed to you.

Your recycling the referenda point endlessly, Ok so 3 countries said no to the treaty but have you seen the amount of countries who have ratified it? Seems to me that the majority do want the treaty so I dont understand what your saying.

Referenda arent statute or binding democratic means of authority either, they only guage a small amount of a publics attitude who are reacting at events which have recently happened. Is a less than 50% turnout really democratic?

Also this free markets thing is annoying me, if you say you support them then you must realise that whilst we have EU membership we have unrestricted trade allowances with other nations. From your ideological perspective you wouldnt like it if the government was slapping import and export taxes onto goods to recover money back from secular trade agreements yet if we left the EU we would have to do exactly that.

You cant just say all we learn is "no". How constructive is that in an argument where a lot of facts are being presented to you?