Ireland to vote on EU Lisbon Treaty in October

[-:Undertaker:-]

Undertaker from a neutral point of view the previous poster has asked you to look up on a certain number of organisations and has even at times given you links to try and develop this argument further yet you aren't really communicating with whats being proposed to you.

Your recycling the referenda point endlessly, Ok so 3 countries said no to the treaty but have you seen the amount of countries who have ratified it? Seems to me that the majority do want the treaty so I dont understand what your saying.

Referenda arent statute or binding democratic means of authority either, they only guage a small amount of a publics attitude who are reacting at events which have recently happened. Is a less than 50% turnout really democratic?

Also this free markets thing is annoying me, if you say you support them then you must realise that whilst we have EU membership we have unrestricted trade allowances with other nations. From your ideological perspective you wouldnt like it if the government was slapping import and export taxes onto goods to recover money back from secular trade agreements yet if we left the EU we would have to do exactly that.

You cant just say all we learn is "no". How constructive is that in an argument where a lot of facts are being presented to you?

Why would I want to read a European Union website telling me how great the European Union is? - that is like telling me to read Karl Marx to judge communism/socialism when I can judge it fine from history. All you seem to do is join discussions in the middle and move the subject away from the actual discussion, to something pointless.

Indeed the majority have approved the treaty, however the people have not approved the treaty. The only three countrys given a say on the reform all turned it down, doesn't that tell you something or can you not understand the concept of no?. The referendum point is vital to the European Union because you may say we need the European Union/people want the European Union but why aren't we being given a referendum on it if the European Union is so very sure of itself?

Using that argument then, should we just scrap general elections in future because they have a low turnout? - come on, lets not make silly points which don't hold up. A referendum is the best form of democracy as it is what the people want at that time, you couldn't get a better form of democracy/choice. The only reason you and the EU don't like the idea of a referendum is because you would lose it and the EU would end overnight.

No, this is a point that you and others annoy me about, you say the European Union is to remove restrictions but alexxxx himself gave an example of how it does restrict sovereignty and how it effects independant and sovereign trade agreements between countrys. Collectivism is not free market.

No, from my point if view and that of most Europeans, I do not like our sovereignty being taken away, I do not like the billions upon billions the European Union costs us. I do not like being part of a superstate, I do not like having over 75% of our laws being made in the European Union, I do not like the idea of a EU military, I do not like the idea of the EU passing regulations on our business, I do not like the idea of the EUs financial records having billions missing from them, I do not like the idea of the EU speaking on behalf of us, I do not like the idea of the EU interfering with our courts and laws, I do not like the EU having restrictions on our food/drink, I do not like the EU having restrictions on our farmers and fishermen, I do not like the EU ordering us how to measure in metric rather than imperial.. I could go on, so even if leaving the EU and having export/import tax back was a bit more expensive than staying in the European Union (which it wouldn't be) then i'd rather pay that extra money rather than have those things above - anyday.

[LuketheDuke]

The only collective trait of the EU economy is the regulations that everyone agrees to put on it to keep the markets in balance. That happens EVERYWHERE.

If we go from the EU we withdraw from one of the most powerful economies in the world and in the midst of a financial recession do you really think its wise to bail? Things would be more expensive its simple economics, study what Sir Robert Peel did in the 1840's, he removed all duties on goods and scrapped internal english corn laws to open up a free trade economy. If we were an independent functioning nation we would HAVE to barter new trading laws with other countries, try and stimulate agriculture past whats faesable for such a small country (USA dont have these problems due to diverse climate) and end up paying that in our taxes.

And lol at your referenda point that they are the best type of democracy. I vote on my issues in elections as thats who Im giving my mandate too as I know thats binding, referendums hold no power or meaning and thats the way it is. A better thing to do would be vote a party in based on their manifesto, Labour flip flopped on it, Tories cant decide on it as Mr Cameron knows the minimal stance we have in the EU is a safe bet so vote UKIP although I doubt theyd get in.


And can you please PLEASE stop saying me and most europeans when you state your own opinions as basically your making it up to try and add value to what your saying. Spain had a referendum on the EU and they voted yes for the Lisbon Treaty. Going to add that into your argument or because it doesnt suit you youl just ignore it and bang on with 75% blahblah yawn yawn

Ive always learnt in debates you have to study counter arguments as its the best form of furthering your own understanding of the matter at hand. I just dont know why you arent allowing this debate to perhaps progress by accepting what the EU does, even if you dont like it.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The only collective trait of the EU economy is the regulations that everyone agrees to put on it to keep the markets in balance. That happens EVERYWHERE.

If we go from the EU we withdraw from one of the most powerful economies in the world and in the midst of a financial recession do you really think its wise to bail? Things would be more expensive its simple economics, study what Sir Robert Peel did in the 1840's, he removed all duties on goods and scrapped internal english corn laws to open up a free trade economy. If we were an independent functioning nation we would HAVE to barter new trading laws with other countries, try and stimulate agriculture past whats faesable for such a small country (USA dont have these problems due to diverse climate) and end up paying that in our taxes.

And lol at your referenda point that they are the best type of democracy. I vote on my issues in elections as thats who Im giving my mandate too as I know thats binding, referendums hold no power or meaning and thats the way it is. A better thing to do would be vote a party in based on their manifesto, Labour flip flopped on it, Tories cant decide on it as Mr Cameron knows the minimal stance we have in the EU is a safe bet so vote UKIP although I doubt theyd get in.


And can you please PLEASE stop saying me and most europeans when you state your own opinions as basically your making it up to try and add value to what your saying. Spain had a referendum on the EU and they voted yes for the Lisbon Treaty. Going to add that into your argument or because it doesnt suit you youl just ignore it and bang on with 75% blahblah yawn yawn

Ive always learnt in debates you have to study counter arguments as its the best form of furthering your own understanding of the matter at hand. I just dont know why you arent allowing this debate to perhaps progress by accepting what the EU does, even if you dont like it.

No, the European Union regulations on economy affect fishing, agriculture and so on, right down to the size of vegtables and fruit so you are wrong.

Things would not be more expensive, infact GommeInc gave an example in another thread which you can find here, below;

As far as I can tell, that's due to the EU and they're the ones to blame for the 6% rise. Who sets that level? The EU, because individual countries cannot/would not set that level. It's like individual businesses trading with one another, they'll do it easily and for cheap (or free) because they need to trade to grow. It's why companies don't trade off their goods with a percentage of interest on top of it, instead, the sell of their goods for less than what consumers would buy them for - Sort of like VAT free rules.

An example could be at school. Individuals can trade their lunch for other food. Then individuals form a group, and they want to sell off their lunch with an extra percentage on-top of that - so a sandwich plus 20p. That 6% rise would only exist, because the EU have made it exist, that 6% would actually cease to exist if the EU weren't anti-competitive.

The only thing that I seem to agree on is free-trading and freedom to go around the EU, of course with limits. I don't agree with the idea of the EU signing away national identity. Soon people will refer to France as "the EU" because that's how the EU will market itself.

I can find no evidence of Spain having a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, would you like to link me to a source which shows Spain had a referendum on the Libson Treaty? - You may say i'm ignoring 'it' to benefit my side of the discussion, but the fact is that only the Republic of Ireland has held a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, so who really is making it all up?

Referendums do hold power, they are the most accurate vote you can get as they are for one issue and cannot/are rarely ignored by governing governments. You have totally ignored what I said about general elections, in your logic, being useless if they are below 50%. As for the 75%+ argument, this is a widely acknowledged figure and just goes to show you do not like me saying it do you, because it makes the European Union look as bad as it is.

I won't accept the European Union and one day it will collapse, one day people will be given a say and it we all know what the answer is. I shall ask the question again, if the EU is so popular why don't the governments of the European Union or the European Union itself hold referendums on its existence? - one reason and one reason alone, it knows it will fall apart overnight if we are given a say.

[LuketheDuke]

The regulation of industries such as agriculture look into sustainability and environmental viability which I think doesnt lead directly into the economic camp. I think its a good thing that quotas are put on such things as we cant gamble on stable food stuffs, otherwise if numbers are in decline and demand rises youd start to see illegal fishing and silly prices.

And I agree GommeInc raises a point that a raise in 6% of prices could well be artificial, however I think that 26 other competitive countries who may I add are striving to rebuild themselves after a financial crisis would want to keep trade cheap to stimulate their individual economies as paying over the odds at this time is illogical. We leave we pay more, we may reap benefits in 10 or so years time but in 10 years time the EU will generate more than 25% of the Worlds GDP.

And no referenda dont hold power, look here to view countries who voted yes on the EU

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3954327.stm

Look here to find out that 75% is a myth

http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/blo...with-euro.html

You may say their biased but heck at least Im backing up points eh?

[-:Undertaker:-]

The regulation of industries such as agriculture look into sustainability and environmental viability which I think doesnt lead directly into the economic camp. I think its a good thing that quotas are put on such things as we cant gamble on stable food stuffs, otherwise if numbers are in decline and demand rises youd start to see illegal fishing and silly prices.

And I agree GommeInc raises a point that a raise in 6% of prices could well be artificial, however I think that 26 other competitive countries who may I add are striving to rebuild themselves after a financial crisis would want to keep trade cheap to stimulate their individual economies as paying over the odds at this time is illogical. We leave we pay more, we may reap benefits in 10 or so years time but in 10 years time the EU will generate more than 25% of the Worlds GDP.

And no referenda dont hold power, look here to view countries who voted yes on the EU

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3954327.stm

Look here to find out that 75% is a myth

http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/blo...with-euro.html

You may say their biased but heck at least Im backing up points eh?

Hang on, you have just gone back on what you were arguing about. You said prices would increase, I said they wouldn't and would infact go down and used Gommes' example and now you say its a good thing. Your all over the place.

The European Union is not free market at all, they control the number of imports/exports, the prices, what is and is not allowed such as the size of vegtables and fruit - collectivism is not free market. It is the opposite. Free means free, individual and independant, the European Union is the opposite of that.

I think your confused between ratified and referendum, you said Spain had had a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty which was wrong. The Republic of Ireland is the only country to of held a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and only because its government legally had to, thanks to the Irish constitution which means when sovereignty is at stake, a referendum has to be held.

As for your 75% is a myth, you expect to prove me wrong via a blog on the internet by a euro-loving MEP? - If you would like me to, I could quote UKIP and other euro-sceptic partys all the time and we'd just have a mish-mash of quotes/links which isn't explaining anything. The 75% figure is widely accepted and is quite acurrate I believe, thousands of laws and regulations which aren't even needed/are a hinderence are imposed on the United Kingdom every year by the European Union.

You have backed away on the cost of the European Union, firstly denying its cost and then saying the 6% was a good thing, then you also were caught in the act making the Kingdom of Spain referendum claim up from thin air - you really need to get your discussion/idealogy in order.

[alexxxxx]

The European Union is not free market at all, they control the number of imports/exports, the prices, what is and is not allowed such as the size of vegtables and fruit - collectivism is not free market. It is the opposite. Free means free, individual and independant, the European Union is the opposite of that.

The EU does not control imports/exports between member states and there is an import tax into the european union, just as there is at the US border. They don't actually continue to regulate the size and shape of vegetables anymore. We're not talking about collectivism in the sense of a a socialist/commusit reigime but countries taking collective decisions across the continent. It IS a free market. A free market is a market where goods can be traded with no government inteference. Therefore the EU allows us to trade with the Netherlands without our goods being taxed at the border. The EU (and national) governements regulate certain areas such as the Fianancial services, chemical processing and food in interests of public safety or trying to keep the markets stable. Common rules on products makes it easier for everyone to trade with each other as a good produced to the specifications in Bulgaria is allowed to be sold in Malta, whereas if the maltese government hasn't tested a paricular chemical in the product, this might not have been allowed to have been sold. Free Markets aren't individual and independant, they are heavily integrated to allow trade with less government inteferance (therefore removing borders, passport checks, import/export duties, insurance) and allowing consumers to be able to find the lowest price possible. That is a free market. TBF, the EU isn't as free as the USA, but it's close.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The EU does not control imports/exports between member states and there is an import tax into the european union, just as there is at the US border. They don't actually continue to regulate the size and shape of vegetables anymore. We're not talking about collectivism in the sense of a a socialist/commusit reigime but countries taking collective decisions across the continent. It IS a free market. A free market is a market where goods can be traded with no government inteference. Therefore the EU allows us to trade with the Netherlands without our goods being taxed at the border. The EU (and national) governements regulate certain areas such as the Fianancial services, chemical processing and food in interests of public safety or trying to keep the markets stable. Common rules on products makes it easier for everyone to trade with each other as a good produced to the specifications in Bulgaria is allowed to be sold in Malta, whereas if the maltese government hasn't tested a paricular chemical in the product, this might not have been allowed to have been sold. Free Markets aren't individual and independant, they are heavily integrated to allow trade with less government inteferance (therefore removing borders, passport checks, import/export duties, insurance) and allowing consumers to be able to find the lowest price possible. That is a free market. TBF, the EU isn't as free as the USA, but it's close.

It does not matter whether the country is socialist, communist, monarchy, republic - anything. If the market is together and controlled like that then it is a command economy, a collective economy. Free markets are free, hence the word free in them. You yourself gave an example of how the Kingdom of Spain would be unable to sign such a treaty due to the European Union, that is not free market.

Free market enables that sovereign country to sign a trade/other treaty with whichever country it wants, and both work on a trade deal which suits them both. The borders of Europe haven't been abolished, they are just unchecked, for now at least before the European Union decides to abolish internal border marks.

The United States does have a a free market, we, the United Kingdom and all nations of the European Union do not. If you have the European Union telling you which vegtables/fruit of a certain size you are not allowed to sell - that is not free market.

If we were indeed free market the European Union would not exist, as it is the opposite of free market, the word free plays a large part.

[LuketheDuke]

The reason why I linked you to that bbc article was to stop your france and netherlands argument as they havent had referenda on the Lisbon Treaty either if we're going to be precise, however on the subject of the EU countries have said yes. So not all "europeans" are with you.

Prices would not go down, if you think that withdrawing from a market which is free of regulation would somehow all of a sudden put prices down than your confused. You also seem to ignore the FM argument and just talk about nationalism, "a true FM would be in Britain" etcetc. If youve got beef with national identity and the EU than be my guest and complain as I understand people who say it even if I dont have sympathetic views. However for you to rally on about how Britain could be better off without being involved in the super economy of the EU and trying to label it as some sort of evil socialist tool is just wrong.

Please look up the Corn Laws which Britain used in the 19th century, maybe collectivisation used in Communist Russia for socio-economic control.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The reason why I linked you to that bbc article was to stop your france and netherlands argument as they havent had referenda on the Lisbon Treaty either if we're going to be precise, however on the subject of the EU countries have said yes. So not all "europeans" are with you.

Prices would not go down, if you think that withdrawing from a market which is free of regulation would somehow all of a sudden put prices down than your confused. You also seem to ignore the FM argument and just talk about nationalism, "a true FM would be in Britain" etcetc. If youve got beef with national identity and the EU than be my guest and complain as I understand people who say it even if I dont have sympathetic views. However for you to rally on about how Britain could be better off without being involved in the super economy of the EU and trying to label it as some sort of evil socialist tool is just wrong.

Please look up the Corn Laws which Britain used in the 19th century, maybe collectivisation used in Communist Russia for socio-economic control.

I never said France and the Netherlands had a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, I said all three countrys had referendum on reformal of the European Union which means the Libson Treaty and the former EU Consitution. My point still stands as you have just failed now, as I said from the start; the only three countrys which held a rederendum on EU reform all turned it down. You have just made something up, yet again.

We would be better off though, why do you think the European Union itself doesn't want a healthy debate on the European Union, why do you think Labour does not want a debate or referendum on the European Union. I have said before, even if it did cost us more not to be in the European Union (which it wouldn't as fruit/vegtable prices are all higher due to the EU, along with the cost of the regulations on our country) I would rather pay that extra, because the right to govern ourselves as we have for the past 1,000 or so years is priceless.

The argument you and all the left wing side give is that the European Union saves money, which I do not believe it does, apart from that since when was the left so concerned with money and finance, lets go back to the 1970s where socialism was rampant, the country was a mess and was bankrupt. Infact, at this very minute the country is plunging into debt from another Labour government yet it still sees it fit to pay billions to the European Union, when it should be the EU paying us at the moment as we are in debt, we have a government which is happy to give millions, if not billions to countrys such as Nigeria, India and the Peoples Republic of China and we have a government which refuses to cut spending which is unaffordable and refuses to cut red tape to save money - so don't give me the money argument again.

I hope your not suggesting the collectivisation used in the Soviet Union was good because millions starved. I have given examples of how command economy/collectivisation has failed time and time again, North Korea, Soviet Union, Peoples Republic of China under Chairman Mao and finally the United Kingdom in the 1970s.

To say the European Union isn't to the left is a fairytale, the European Union has had cabinet failures in it throughout, Peter Mandelson and Neil Kinnock - two of the worst and most hated politicians this country has ever seen.

You can't seem to understand the fact we haven't been given a referendum means they know it will lose, so i'd say at this point in time i'm in a pretty strong position to speak on behalf of Europe, because they and I are not getting a say on this European superstate that is being created, unwillingly, before our eyes.

[LuketheDuke]

You said that the only 3 countries who had a say on the Treaty turned it down, so you did suggest that France and the Netherlands rejected the LT. I dont get how thats making stuff up, no need to be abusive too. :S

-Our argument on the free markets isnt going anywhere but the last thing Ill say is that why in a free market situation would EU goods be sold at artificially high prices if no duty has been collected on them? Im not even sure thats legal. So what basis do you know theres secret EU taxes slapped on goods, please post evidence.
-Collective farming was used in Stalinist Russia, I have no idea why your accusing me of mocking dead gulags when all I said is if you want a good idea of CF they used it back then.
-Neil Kinnock is not a hate figure, neither was socialism hated in the 70's even if Labour did get voted out, so did the Tories in 97 so whats your point? You make it sound like Godzilla fgs. Many would say Thatcher is a hated politician so your argument just sounds like bias. If it wasnt for Labour we wouldnt have the NHS and we'd be at the mercy of health insurance industries like the USA is.
-Im not depriving you of a referendum just learn that they arent binding as we have no constitutional stance on them. Id much rather vote for a party in an election who has a stance on such a thing, ie UKIP.
-Finally you dont know there would be a loss on a referenda, neither do you know Europe agrees with your opinion as the Spaniards voted 77% in favour for it., whereas many other small nations such as Luxumborg have parties who have gathered high opinion polls on wanting corperation with European ties.

I have no problem with an issue of national identity as I know thats important to a lot of people which can stir resentment towards the EU, but to be so sensationalist and label it a superstate is pedantic, Britain isnt called Europeland is it?

Thats me done with this thread.