Scottish Independence

[-:Undertaker:-]

Also, what is this garbage I also see peddled by the SNP and Plaid when it comes to "we didn't vote for these illegal wars" as though the wars only happened because those stupid English decided to vote for Labour and Conservative in such huge numbers.

In 2001 Blair won 44% of the vote in Scotland, giving him 46 seats out of his UK total of 413 out of 650.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Un...ts_in_Scotland

In 2001 Blair won 49% of the vote in Wales, giving him 29 seats out of his UK total of 413 out of 650.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Un...sults_in_Wales

That means that Scotland and Wales combined gave Blair 75 seats, which if they didn't he'd of only had a total of 338: a small majority.

If you add the Conservatives (who also supported the war) Scottish percentage on - 16% - then it's even higher at 60%.

So then Iraq happens.....

In 2005 Blair won 40% of the vote in Scotland, giving him 41 seats out of his UK total of 355 out of 650.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Un...ts_in_Scotland

In 2005 Blair won 43% of the vote in Wales, giving him 29 seats out of his UK total of 355 out of 650.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Un...sults_in_Wales

If you add the Conservatives (who also supported the war) Scottish percentage on - 16% - then it's even higher at 56%.

That means that Scotland and Wales combined gave Blair 70 seats, which if they didn't he'd of only had a total of 285 which would have meant he'd of been kicked out of office after the disgrace that was the Iraq War. So if anything, it was England that ended up with a huge Labour majority that it didn't vote for. Scotland and Wales voted FOR those wars even more so than England alone did.

Enough of this rubbish that if only Scotland were independent it wouldn't get involved in stupid wars overseas - the election results suggest it would.

[The Don]

Not so "Great" as you thought?

Been brainwashed by ridiculous propaganda I see. Almost all of those points are wrong or worded in a way to make them seem worse. And if you think Scotland leaving and becoming poorer will magically sort out any of those issues then more for you.

[The Don]

The amount of anti-English emphasis used by the Yes Campaign is quite high. Whilst I'm not suggesting everyone is voting because they're against the English, it's definitely something emphasised throughout the whole campaign.

Not quite sure what you mean about the NHS. Nobody wanted those illegal wars, but if you're referring to Blairs then you can't complain more than anyone else since Labour did have a majority in Scotland.

There's not a Conservative government, there's a coalition government so technically, nobody voted for it and technically, nobody votes for a government but for their local representative who then can be used as a basis to form government. In addition, you could take any chunk of ~5 million people and claim their vote makes no difference.

You seem to just be complaining about the voting system more than anything else which essentially renders most peoples votes useless.

Now on to your image.
"Very recent", which year exactly?
I read a brief summary of this. It claimed the UK has a low number of holidays per year (I didn't realise 4 weeks was low...) and part of the reasoning behind it was the "lack of sunshine". What a farce.
I tried to find a source for this but only found a Dailymail article to support the claim.
Might be true.
Yet, the whole of the UK is 1 in 6 despite the Salmond claiming to have invested so much to tackle poverty?
I think the gender pay gap argument is a farce so won't begin to comment.
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/sta...DP%29_YB14.png - March 2014

The image then seems to make a few of the same points just worded differently so I won't comment on them individually anymore I just want to know how you think any of this will be different independent? Most of the cost of fuel is tax and duty, but with Salmonds plan to build a fund from this I wouldn't expect that to decrease. And the obesity rates? Scotland is 2nd behind the USA

I wouldn't believe a single 'fact' on that picture. I've literally looked up the FIRST point (that the UK is the most unequal society in the west) and found it to be completely wrong. Page 168 of the 2014 Human Development Index shows that we're actually the 9th BEST in Europe, and 14th in the world. Far from being the worst in west, with countries such as France, Belgium, Spain and Italy scoring worse than us. It's easy to skew reality in these arguments, but it's unnecessary. The argument shouldn't be about how good the UK is, it should be about whether Scotland will be better off in the UK or on their own, and all the facts point towards it being a safer bet for them to stay.

[Kardan]

How on earth can the UK have a 'low' number of holidays a year? 4 weeks is insane. You go over to America and most people do not get paid holiday leave.

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The 2nd point: "UK - Worst quality of life", which I assume means that places in Scotland apparently 'dominate' the low positions of 'Best places to live in the UK', well, those places will still be bottom on a list of 'Best places to live in Scotland'.

[The Don]

How on earth can the UK have a 'low' number of holidays a year? 4 weeks is insane. You go over to America and most people do not get paid holiday leave.

The same way that according to that picture the UK has the highest cost of childcare in Europe, yet Switzerland's percentage of family income spent on childcare is double that of the UK's, it's simply not true.

[Kardan]

'Third lowest maternity pay in Europe' - Yes, the UK does have the third lowest over 6 months. Worth noting that this is only Europe (Once again, look at how maternity pay for America works), and worth noting that in the UK you get LONGER than 6 months maternity pay. So in reality you have a choice between Higher maternity pay for 6 months, or a lower maternity pay for 12 months (as an example). Of course, over a 6 month window, the lower pay is worse, but in the long run, it may not be.

Then, let's assume it is worse, you would assume that Scotland would then change this around if they became independent, but from a quick google search all I can find is that people reckon they've already improved maternity pay. So good luck there.

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You literally could argue the majority of points on that image basically.

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In Scotland, 1 in 5 children are in poverty.

It's 19%, so close enough. Had a look at what Scotland plans to do about it if they became independent, 'Try a new approach' was the answer.

Pay gap between Males/females is 8th worse in Europe.

Also true. So now Scotland needs to give more money to pregnant women, more money to women in general, more money to kids in poverty. Good thing Scotland just has tons of money lying around for a rainy day.

Below average on money spent in education in the EU.

Simply untrue. UK is about 6th/7th, which isn't below average.

So Scotland want to spend more money on maternity pay, equal wages, child poverty, education.

If you keep going down the list, most of it is economy related. How does Scotland expect to become the perfect country? Surely it's impossible to improve everything on that list? Otherwise everyone would be doing it.

[The Don]

'Third lowest maternity pay in Europe' - Yes, the UK does have the third lowest over 6 months. Worth noting that this is only Europe (Once again, look at how maternity pay for America works), and worth noting that in the UK you get LONGER than 6 months maternity pay. So in reality you have a choice between Higher maternity pay for 6 months, or a lower maternity pay for 12 months (as an example). Of course, over a 6 month window, the lower pay is worse, but in the long run, it may not be.

Then, let's assume it is worse, you would assume that Scotland would then change this around if they became independent, but from a quick google search all I can find is that people reckon they've already improved maternity pay. So good luck there.

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You literally could argue the majority of points on that image basically.

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In Scotland, 1 in 5 children are in poverty.

It's 19%, so close enough. Had a look at what Scotland plans to do about it if they became independent, 'Try a new approach' was the answer.

Pay gap between Males/females is 8th worse in Europe.

Also true. So now Scotland needs to give more money to pregnant women, more money to women in general, more money to kids in poverty. Good thing Scotland just has tons of money lying around for a rainy day.

Below average on money spent in education in the EU.

Simply untrue. UK is about 6th/7th, which isn't below average.

So Scotland want to spend more money on maternity pay, equal wages, child poverty, education.

If you keep going down the list, most of it is economy related. How does Scotland expect to become the perfect country? Surely it's impossible to improve everything on that list? Otherwise everyone would be doing it.

Don't forget they want all that WHILST also having more than the already generous 4 weeks holiday we get! It's almost as if the things they're being promised are too good to be true...

[Southe,]

I was going to type a response, but i feel it will just go back and forward and we won't agree so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Regarding the picture, probably a mistake to post that. I didn't read it and merely just grabbed the first thing i could find as i wanted to post something in response to Taker's video which i felt was very patrionising.

Don, The BBC has been proven to mislead in there reporting the referendum, not accept comment's in only the Scottish news stories on the BBC website and given warning to BitterTogether before on tv debates. Project Fear on the other hand are also guilty of using misleading information so let's not pretend otherwise. and as for the poorer after a yes vote? nonsense.

I'll still be voting Yes. I'm 100% positive if the roles were reversed and every decision was made up in Holyrood, where the English were outnumbered, And knowing you could scrap all this and go it alone you would.

I will say, Ideally i would prefer if all the nations in the UK split up, all became equals and formed a new Union were every nation had an equal say, with there own parliaments for there own nations matters. Would probably never work, but that's what i would like to see. At least then these myths of Scotland being subsidized by England would be put to rest.

[Mikey]

I'm voting no.

[dbgtz]

I was going to type a response, but i feel it will just go back and forward and we won't agree so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Regarding the picture, probably a mistake to post that. I didn't read it and merely just grabbed the first thing i could find as i wanted to post something in response to Taker's video which i felt was very patrionising.

Don, The BBC has been proven to mislead in there reporting the referendum, not accept comment's in only the Scottish news stories on the BBC website and given warning to BitterTogether before on tv debates. Project Fear on the other hand are also guilty of using misleading information so let's not pretend otherwise. and as for the poorer after a yes vote? nonsense.

I'll still be voting Yes. I'm 100% positive if the roles were reversed and every decision was made up in Holyrood, where the English were outnumbered, And knowing you could scrap all this and go it alone you would.

I will say, Ideally i would prefer if all the nations in the UK split up, all became equals and formed a new Union were every nation had an equal say, with there own parliaments for there own nations matters. Would probably never work, but that's what i would like to see. At least then these myths of Scotland being subsidized by England would be put to rest.

Show me this proof

That 4th paragraph/statement is ridiculous. For starts, no where near every decision is made in Westminster. The whole statement seems to ignore what a bloody democracy is.

What is an "equal" say? Because, pre-devolution, every 1 citizen (18+) had an equal say, now citizens of Scotland, Wales and NI have a much greater say.