The results of socialism and the Euro are laid bare for all to see in Greece

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...uts-riots.html

Athens alight: Thousands of striking Greeks in fresh anti-cuts riot... and this is them just warming up for clashes tomorrow

• 48-hour strike sees airports and ports grind to a halt
• Crucial vote on Greek austerity measures will take place tomorrow
• Police fire tear gas after clashes with protesters in Athens

Riot police fought running battles with hooded youths in Athens today as tens of thousands took the streets against tough anti-austerity measures. Parts of the capital were ablaze as youths hurled rocks, bricks and petrol bombs at police who responded with baton charges and tear gas. Clouds of smoke were left hanging over the city’s landmarks. Dozens were injured. Tonight protesters, taking part in a two-day national strike, were on the streets again.

Hundreds of terrified tourists ran for safety from cafes and restaurants as youths, many wearing gas masks and scarves covering their faces, rampaged in front of luxury hotels in Syntagma Square. Shops, banks, trucks and bins were all set ablaze. Five thousand police were patrolling the streets. Hotel staff handed out surgical masks to tourists and helped them with rolling luggage past the rioting, over ground strewn with smashed-up marble and cement paving stones. The rioting happened as the Greek parliament debated a £25billion cuts package and the EU warned there would be no more money if the reforms were not approved.

Parliament is due to vote tomorrow and on Thursday over the hugely controversial packages of spending cuts, tax increases and privatisations agreed as part of a massive bailout – the second granted to Greece – aimed at averting the euro zone’s first debt default. EU Economics Commissioner Olli Rehn warned bluntly if Greece does not vote for more austerity there would be no more bailout money. ‘I trust that Greek political leaders are fully aware of the responsibility that lies on their shoulders to avoid default: the only way to avoid immediate default is for parliament to endorse the revised economic programme,’ he said. The reforms are expected to scrape through parliament.

Well here we have it people, this is what happens when a govermment spends too much (because government spending does not equal growth, it equals the opposite as the public sector does not contribute to growth as the private sector does) and here you can see the result of many years of socialism in Greece - coming soon to a country near you very soon perhaps. This is also a result of the governments bailing out their banking friends and hoisting the extra debt burden onto the taxpayer in order to save banks which should have gone bust.

Then, additionally - you have a currency which was forced on the peoples of Europe with no mandate and which was destined to fail without a fiscal union, now you see it crumbling before your eyes. Now I clearly remember not long ago, many on this forum not only argued for Britain to join the Euro but they argued that by cutting spending by the government to harm growth - I do hope all those who came out with those lines now have their hats on their plates.

Thoughts?

[alexxxxx]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...uts-riots.html
Athens alight: Thousands of striking Greeks in fresh anti-cuts riot... and this is them just warming up for clashes tomorrow

• 48-hour strike sees airports and ports grind to a halt
• Crucial vote on Greek austerity measures will take place tomorrow
• Police fire tear gas after clashes with protesters in Athens

Well here we have it people, this is what happens when a govermment spends too much (because government spending does not equal growth, it equals the opposite as the public sector does not contribute to growth as the private sector does) and here you can see the result of many years of socialism in Greece - coming soon to a country near you very soon perhaps. This is also a result of the governments bailing out their banking friends and hoisting the extra debt burden onto the taxpayer in order to save banks which should have gone bust.

Then, additionally - you have a currency which was forced on the peoples of Europe with no mandate and which was destined to fail without a fiscal union, now you see it crumbling before your eyes. Now I clearly remember not long ago, many on this forum not only argued for Britain to join the Euro but they argued that by cutting spending by the government to harm growth - I do hope all those who came out with those lines now have their hats on their plates.

Thoughts?

You mix GDP with government debt. It's GDP has actually tripled since it joined the Euro. It hasn't kept its balance sheet in order. I wouldn't say it's socialism either... they didn't tax the rich and give it to the poor, they didn't tax anyone and grossly overspent - that's why they're in this mess, not because of socialism.. The USA are in a lot of debt ($14trillion) also, but are they socialist?

[-:Undertaker:-]

You mix GDP with government debt. It's GDP has actually tripled since it joined the Euro. It hasn't kept its balance sheet in order. I wouldn't say it's socialism either... they didn't tax the rich and give it to the poor, they didn't tax anyone and grossly overspent - that's why they're in this mess, not because of socialism.. The USA are in a lot of debt ($14trillion) also, but are they socialist?

The USA has a socialist fiscal policy, yes with its government debts of $14tn+. As for GDP, I haven't mixed them up at all - I didn't mention growth so I have no idea where you have pulled that one from. The countries of Greece, Portugal, Spain and the western world in general has been following Keynesian economics (socialism) for many years now except for short breaks inbetween resulting in large debts in which, in order to pay off the governments of these countries have to tax individuals more and more money to keep the bills in check.. as this continues, its reached a point now where the private sector simply cannot be squeezed anymore because they've milked that cow dry which is now leading to what we see in Greece and other nations, including ours and the United States; an out of control government in which financial capital has been spent centrally, and overspent at that - resulting in bankruptcy as all socialist economies end up in.

As for growth in the Eurozone including Greece, its been dire for a very long time. The Euro is only making things worse as its totally unsuited to a number of differing economies all of which have differing fiscal policies, which is why its in so much trouble - something the likes of Godfrey Bloom, Milton Friedman and many others warned about decades ago - everything they said has come true.

[jam666]

I'm literally sat here hoping that the austerity measure will be voted AGAINST by the greek parliament for one reason only. The reason is it marks the death-knell of the EURO!. Most people would argue its a selfish and silly reason and whilst I admit we (in the uk) will no doubt take a hit if the vote fails tomorrow but thankfully it wont be as big of a hit that the eurozone would feel (oh man I'd love to see barossos face if that happened). With any look the austerity measures will fail, greece will default, the euro will collapse with an exit from portugal, ireland, spain etc (orderly ofc) whilst with any luck the banks won't refuse to trade with each other causing another financial disaster. However it cannot be as bad as the one that the euro has created for the past however many years.

With the arrival of the 28th member of the EU in 2013 (Croatia) and talks currently being held on the 29th (Iceland) I sincerely hope they realise what they are letting themselves in for... especially iceland.

[alexxxxx]

The USA has a socialist fiscal policy, yes with its government debts of $14tn+. As for GDP, I haven't mixed them up at all - I didn't mention growth so I have no idea where you have pulled that one from. The countries of Greece, Portugal, Spain and the western world in general has been following Keynesian economics (socialism) for many years now except for short breaks inbetween resulting in large debts in which, in order to pay off the governments of these countries have to tax individuals more and more money to keep the bills in check.. as this continues, its reached a point now where the private sector simply cannot be squeezed anymore because they've milked that cow dry which is now leading to what we see in Greece and other nations, including ours and the United States; an out of control government in which financial capital has been spent centrally, and overspent at that - resulting in bankruptcy as all socialist economies end up in.

Yeah you did mention growth, read your post... Not really, Keynesian economics is dying in the western world. It really is, Privatisation all over the Western World, lowering of taxation as percentage of people's earnings, superbanks lending money to business and government leading to massive increases in private sector output across the globe. I'm not sure what western country you live in? Or is Liverpool severly different to the rest of the world?

As for growth in the Eurozone including Greece, its been dire for a very long time. The Euro is only making things worse as its totally unsuited to a number of differing economies all of which have differing fiscal policies, which is why its in so much trouble - something the likes of Godfrey Bloom, Milton Friedman and many others warned about decades ago - everything they said has come true.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/...?display=graph

Not exactly dire, less than the world average (which is understandable as large, developed countries do not grow as fast as the world average. As you can see the UK and Switzerland are very similiar in their growth rates too. I don't think you can blame the Euro for Greece's overspending or fiscal incompetence. In theory it is unsuited to a number of differing economies - however it appears that in raw number terms it is fine.

[QUOTE]
I'm literally sat here hoping that the austerity measure will be voted AGAINST by the greek parliament for one reason only. The reason is it marks the death-knell of the EURO!. Most people would argue its a selfish and silly reason and whilst I admit we (in the uk) will no doubt take a hit if the vote fails tomorrow but thankfully it wont be as big of a hit that the eurozone would feel (oh man I'd love to see barossos face if that happened). With any look the austerity measures will fail, greece will default, the euro will collapse with an exit from portugal, ireland, spain etc (orderly ofc) whilst with any luck the banks won't refuse to trade with each other causing another financial disaster. However it cannot be as bad as the one that the euro has created for the past however many years.
[QUOTE]
The death of the euro would hit us almost as hard as the rest of the eurozone. I'm not sure you understand the consequences.

I was watching Bloomberg/CNBC earlier and most analyists still feel that Greece will default, just in a few years time where their PSNCR is negative/zero so that they still will be able to function. In other words, a cushioned rather than hard landing...