Which political view is best for Britain?

[Mickword]

LETS ALL JUST SAY COMMYS!

not thats i like them just lets say it!

[LuketheDuke]

so the economys just shrunk the most its done since the 1950's yet a weak strain of socialism that fell on hard times in 70's is all of a sudden worse.

and you mention unions controlling governments but look at the number of quangos who influence political policy who neither thatcher, major, blair or brown have regulated. Their the sort of organisations who have twisted the arms of politicians to not regulate our greedy, short sighted banks who have caused this mess and are now costing tax payers massive sums to pay for the damage they caused.

[Jippz]

so the economys just shrunk the most its done since the 1950's yet a weak strain of socialism that fell on hard times in 70's is all of a sudden worse.

and you mention unions controlling governments but look at the number of quangos who influence political policy who neither thatcher, major, blair or brown have regulated. Their the sort of organisations who have twisted the arms of politicians to not regulate our greedy, short sighted banks who have caused this mess and are now costing tax payers massive sums to pay for the damage they caused.

What he said.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Yeah, in the last decade or so politicians seem to of settled for what creates less work for them. HA and look where that Golden Brown.

Care to give us an example?

No i agree with wolf, you're putting your points across and we're putting forward ours. However you seem to get very vicious every time somebody says something you don't agree with. You make good points but in an immature fashion....

I am not being vicious at all, i'm merely discussing it. If discussing something is being vicious or questioning people on why they think socialism would work is vicious, then yes I am vicious. I am not the one being immature, I have asked Wolf time and time again that if he thinks my points are a load of rubbish, him to put some decent points across - he refuses to do so each time.

+rep wolf

Anyway on another note, you keep pressing forward the same point but not explaining. Give me an example of a way that socialism has killed, in western culture.

Hang on, the west is capitalist so no I cannot give a proper example of how socialism has killed people in the west, as the west has never been socialist. I can point to the near socialist state the United Kingdom was in in the 1970s and point to the mass poverty at that time.

Socialism has killed millions in socialist countrys, namely the Soivet Union, North Korea, Cuba and the Peoples Republic of China so I have indeed backed my side up, and none of you seem to be able to give me a reply to this.

Nothing like good old fashioned Gommunism

Capitalism is possibly the only working setup, because it doesn't really target people the same way as communism etc. (hard to explain, sort of like freedom but with obvious restraints). It's a very odd discussion though, very restrictive There's alot governments can learn from each of them and possibly make a sort of pseudo version made up of a mixture of each system.

Government interference as socialism proves does nothing good, it hampers the economy (USSR, Cuba, PROC under Mao, UK in 1970s etc) and when applied socially, creates a aura of a dictatorship because the state is the people in socialism, its like the chinese army is called Peoples Liberty Army or something, yet was deployed against the people during the Tianman Square unrest.

It uses the argument that big business is in control, yet all socialism is is a far more extreme version of control, its like Lenin and Stalin - so called champions of the people yet ruined the economies of Russia and the east and lived in palaces and eat large state dinners while their own people died. It is the same with Tony Blair and the Kinnocks, so called socialists yet own vast property empires and accept large pay sums from their jobs, along with their vast pension packets.

Undertaker you realise the irony of EVERYTHING you've said right?

I am explaining, you are now taking the same tone as Wolf is. You start putting your point across and we shall discuss it, I am waiting.

so the economys just shrunk the most its done since the 1950's yet a weak strain of socialism that fell on hard times in 70's is all of a sudden worse.

and you mention unions controlling governments but look at the number of quangos who influence political policy who neither thatcher, major, blair or brown have regulated. Their the sort of organisations who have twisted the arms of politicians to not regulate our greedy, short sighted banks who have caused this mess and are now costing tax payers massive sums to pay for the damage they caused.

The economy is far larger now than it was years ago so the downturn will be worse, thats common sense. Business employs the people, thats why governments need to listen to business because without business you do not have an economy, in turn you do not have jobs, in turn your country is in chaos. The people themselves took out these loans from the banks, any normal person with any common sense would not take out a loan to go on holiday. It is not up to the banks or the government to tell people when to take out loans, if that person make personal error then they lose out its as simple as that.

Nationalisation does not work, as proved in the 1970s, how many more winter of discontents do we need before this message sinks in?

[LuketheDuke]

What on earth are you talking about? This recession has been caused by banks lending massive amounts of money from one another that they couldnt pay back. If they were regulated someone would have noticed this and intervened to avoid recession.

Holiday loans? What?:S If a bank just lost a hell of a lot of money and your savings were tied up in that bank would you trust it? Id get my cash out ASAP and put it under my bed.

And can you please stop going on about the winter of discontent. It was labelled that by our sensational media because people wanted more money and the government wouldnt give it to them. So what do you blame for that, Unions which you hate or Callaghan who you hate? You cant lump both into the same argument as that doesnt make sense.

We've had one "winter of discontent" so why are you saying how many we need as its happened only once. What I dont need is high tax rates, bankers running arife with big bonus' and the good jobs going to kids whove been to private schools. All of which are the result of a capitalist Britain.

It ordepends how the system works.

[-:Undertaker:-]

What on earth are you talking about? This recession has been caused by banks lending massive amounts of money from one another that they couldnt pay back. If they were regulated someone would have noticed this and intervened to avoid recession.

Holiday loans? What?:S If a bank just lost a hell of a lot of money and your savings were tied up in that bank would you trust it? Id get my cash out ASAP and put it under my bed.

And can you please stop going on about the winter of discontent. It was labelled that by our sensational media because people wanted more money and the government wouldnt give it to them. So what do you blame for that, Unions which you hate or Callaghan who you hate? You cant lump both into the same argument as that doesnt make sense.

We've had one "winter of discontent" so why are you saying how many we need as its happened only once. What I dont need is high tax rates, bankers running arife with big bonus' and the good jobs going to kids whove been to private schools. All of which are the result of a capitalist Britain.

It ordepends how the system works.

The banks also lent out very easy loans to people which also led to their collapse, hence why they appealed to the banks because the banks knew they probably would not be able to pay those loans back. Banking isn't a clean business, but like all business it exists to do one thing and one thing only, make money.

I would not no, the holiday loans point is nothing to do with that. I am using that as an example of how easy it was to secure loans from the banks back then. Whether or not the banks behave like this and operate like this is irrelvent, at some point or other the economy (regulated or not) will partially collapse - in a capitalist way, this allows new growth whereas in the socialist way new growth never appears, just look back, again, at the 1970s in the United Kingdom when we had to appeal to the IMF.

I will not stop going on about the winter of discontent as it is a vital point to the discussion, none of you seem to be able to explain this. Our darkest point in modern economic history and i'll continue to bring it up and explain it until you can come up with an answer to this. The winter of disconent was caused both by the Callaghan governments and the unions, the problem has slowly been growing since after the second world war. The unions controlled the Callgahan government and kept pushing for expensive pay rises, of which the country could not afford. The Labour Party was powerless against them as it has powerful union members within, and also was funded by the unions. If James Callgahan would of stood up to the unions, as Edward Heath attempted to - he would of been removed from office, its as simple as that - the unions had the government in a bear hug.

In the 1970s we had power cuts, business wouldn't open here because of high taxes, people had no money to spend due to high taxes, the government was in debt and spending money on failing industry such as the mines, whilst also funding the government owned industry. Government was over bloated at this point in time, it was in everything and that is why nobody would invest in this country.

This led to this cycle;

High government tax and regulation > no business would open/business was closing > people losing jobs > people could not find new jobs > less tax being paid to the government > taxes then have to rise elsewhere to fund that gaping hole > more business closes... it continued like that.

Indeed we only had one winter of discontent, at the point when the country was on the verge of becoming socialist, that exactly being my point; we never want to return to that stage again under socialism.

[Catzsy]

The banks also lent out very easy loans to people which also led to their collapse, hence why they appealed to the banks because the banks knew they probably would not be able to pay those loans back. Banking isn't a clean business, but like all business it exists to do one thing and one thing only, make money.

I would not no, the holiday loans point is nothing to do with that. I am using that as an example of how easy it was to secure loans from the banks back then. Whether or not the banks behave like this and operate like this is irrelvent, at some point or other the economy (regulated or not) will partially collapse - in a capitalist way, this allows new growth whereas in the socialist way new growth never appears, just look back, again, at the 1970s in the United Kingdom when we had to appeal to the IMF.

I will not stop going on about the winter of discontent as it is a vital point to the discussion, none of you seem to be able to explain this. Our darkest point in modern economic history and i'll continue to bring it up and explain it until you can come up with an answer to this. The winter of disconent was caused both by the Callaghan governments and the unions, the problem has slowly been growing since after the second world war. The unions controlled the Callgahan government and kept pushing for expensive pay rises, of which the country could not afford. The Labour Party was powerless against them as it has powerful union members within, and also was funded by the unions. If James Callgahan would of stood up to the unions, as Edward Heath attempted to - he would of been removed from office, its as simple as that - the unions had the government in a bear hug.

In the 1970s we had power cuts, business wouldn't open here because of high taxes, people had no money to spend due to high taxes, the government was in debt and spending money on failing industry such as the mines, whilst also funding the government owned industry. Government was over bloated at this point in time, it was in everything and that is why nobody would invest in this country.

This led to this cycle;

High government tax and regulation > no business would open/business was closing > people losing jobs > people could not find new jobs > less tax being paid to the government > taxes then have to rise elsewhere to fund that gaping hole > more business closes... it continued like that.

Indeed we only had one winter of discontent, at the point when the country was on the verge of becoming socialist, that exactly being my point; we never want to return to that stage again under socialism.

You seem to have conveniently forgotten the Poll Tax Riots and Black Wedneday here, Dan. :eusa_whis


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_Tax_Riots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday

[-:Undertaker:-]

You seem to have conveniently forgotten the Poll Tax Riots and Black Wedneday here, Dan. :eusa_whis


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_Tax_Riots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday

They were not economic disasters such as the winter of discontent, in both them situations we never had to appeal to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) for an emergency bail out which is the worst scenario. The Poll Tax riots have nothing to do economics, infact if anything; they show up the true violent face of socialism.

The topic of the European Fixed Mechanism has nothing to do with the subject of capitalism vs socialism, but i'll explain it anyway.

The unions fell from being the main power behind government to being beaten by the party they hated most, they lost their power and the economy recovered. My own city of Liverpool was ravaged by militantism in the 1970s and 1970s, it destroyed our reputation.

The poll tax riots were mainly organised by the unions which by that time were stripped of their powers - is that anyway to behave over taxes? - Labour introduces more taxes than the Conservatives ever did & raises taxes more than the Conservatives ever did, yet no one is protesting about it because its Labour - I think that tells us a lot, if your confused about poll tax here is it simply explained;

Before Poll Tax
Before Poll Tax, say if I and a group of five friends were living in your house but you owned the house, you would pay all of the 'council tax' for us all. That would mean the householder paying for the people who lived within the house, despite all of us equally using council services such as roads, rubbish collections and so forth.

After Poll Tax
After Poll Tax, say if it was the same scenario. We would all pay our individual taxes, meaning the unfair burden lifted from the household owner.

Which is fair?

As for Black Wednesday it just proves why I am against the European Union, the Conservatives should never have joined any European economic joint venture, however the good news was that when the Conservatives left office in 1997 - the economy was in amazing shape and government debt was very very low. Just compare this to 1979 when the economy was on its knees and around now, because at this point in time when Labour leave office in 2009/2010 they will be leaving behind a massive pile of debt which means that yet again, the Conservatives will have to clear up the mess made by Labour.

[LuketheDuke]

lol the first points you made reinforces the point that the banks were irresponsibly lending and not moderating what they did as in their interests it meant money. You say economies fall and decline but arguably this recession seems to get worse and worse, there was drops in 2001 and thats natural but inflation and mass unemployment are a throw back to Thatcher and worse. It isnt normal, we've been screwed as a nation by our financial so called "elite" and I say we regulate what they do to make sure this doesnt happen again.

Winter of Discontent was argued on pay dispute and living standards, dont you think its something to be admired that ordinary people stood up for themselves and ensured their quality of life improved for themselves and for their families? Impacts like that have shaped the way we live to do this day so ykno good on 'em

Also I wonder what your cycle sounds like? Oh wait yea it sounds like whats going on now!!!

[-:Undertaker:-]

lol the first points you made reinforces the point that the banks were irresponsibly lending and not moderating what they did as in their interests it meant money. You say economies fall and decline and arguably this is recession seems to get worse and worse, there was drops in 2001 and thats natural but inflation and mass unemployment are a throw back to Thatcher and worse. It isnt normal, we've been screwed as a nation by our financial so called "elite" and I say we regulate what they do to make sure this doesnt happen again.

Winter of Discontent was argued on pay dispute and living standards, dont you think its something to be admired that ordinary people stood up for themselves and ensured their quality of life improved for themselves and for their families? Impacts like that have shaped the way we live to do this day so ykno good on 'em

Also I wonder what your cycle sounds like? Oh wait yea it sounds like whats going on now!!!

It was Margaret Thatcher who brought down inflation after Labour left office, Inflation in 1975 was its highest point in modern history under Labour, at a staggering 24.2%. The 1980s saw inflation brought down by Thatcher and the Conservatives and the economy improved drastically, so much so that London became one of the leading financial capitals of the world.

As for the regulation, it will happen again. Regulated or not this will happen again, again, again and again and nothing can stop that. Boom and bust are the basics of capitalism and will forever be, i'd rather weather short downturns than be living in a socialist state such as North Korea where food is scare, or even in a scenario like 1970s Britain when we had power cuts.

I do admire the winter of discontent, it is what brought down the Labour government and the ultimate downfall of the unions, and thank god we had it. It is a shame we ever reached that stage thanks to socialism, we should never have got into that situation.

The cycle is similar to what is going on now except there is one big difference, government tax has not yet reached levels as it was back in the 1970s and this downturn is a global downturn which we have weathered before, whereas the winter of discontent was this countrys economy going under because of the socialist grip on government and economy.