Which political view is best for Britain?

[LuketheDuke]

Mm but the economys shrunk the most since it did in the 50's, people are saying this could be far the worst crisis thats ever happened financially.

Your just grinding some sort of axe with this socialism thing and I dont get it. You say you respect the Trade Unions who stuck up for ordinary workers then you say your glad they got destroyed. You hate Brown but for this arguments sake you choose to ignore the damage thats been inflicted on this country to back up some other point.

Why cant you just admit that no one checking these banks and their gogo attitudes has cost us all. This is ultimately a flaw with Capitalism.

[Jippz]

have any of you read the tory leaflets? All of them just use the techniques of the media and take what's on the publics mind to manipulate into saying "Yeah. Labour bad. Big mean men. Get out my government."
Then i read the labour local elections leaflet, and it tells me exactly what he supports and exactly what he has done. But mostly, what he will do. The tories do tell us what they are about, yes. But not on the leaflets. Not on the posters. Not on the tv. Not in the media AT ALL. They tell us their policies in the website, and expect us to know from common knowledge. We have to do the leg work to find out if they are any better than labour, and 90 percent of people aren't really too fussed to do that.

[ifuseekamy]

Labour are about as socialist as the Tories are neoliberalists. Britons want the best of both worlds so both parties are closer to being centrist parties than the respective left and right they are often portrayed as. Ultimately that is what you need. Socialism fails because it assumes people are robots who aren't greedy and are happy to stay in the same financial position their entire lives. Capitalism fails because it assumes everyone is wealthy enough to live comfortably and that all businesses will flourish without economic regulation.

Our system is far from perfect but it would be a lot worse if it was firmly left or right wing.

[Catzsy]

They were not economic disasters such as the winter of discontent, in both them situations we never had to appeal to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) for an emergency bail out which is the worst scenario. The Poll Tax riots have nothing to do economics, infact if anything; they show up the true violent face of socialism.

The topic of the European Fixed Mechanism has nothing to do with the subject of capitalism vs socialism, but i'll explain it anyway.

The unions fell from being the main power behind government to being beaten by the party they hated most, they lost their power and the economy recovered. My own city of Liverpool was ravaged by militantism in the 1970s and 1970s, it destroyed our reputation.

The poll tax riots were mainly organised by the unions which by that time were stripped of their powers - is that anyway to behave over taxes? - Labour introduces more taxes than the Conservatives ever did & raises taxes more than the Conservatives ever did, yet no one is protesting about it because its Labour - I think that tells us a lot, if your confused about poll tax here is it simply explained;

Before Poll Tax
Before Poll Tax, say if I and a group of five friends were living in your house but you owned the house, you would pay all of the 'council tax' for us all. That would mean the householder paying for the people who lived within the house, despite all of us equally using council services such as roads, rubbish collections and so forth.

After Poll Tax
After Poll Tax, say if it was the same scenario. We would all pay our individual taxes, meaning the unfair burden lifted from the household owner.

Which is fair?

As for Black Wednesday it just proves why I am against the European Union, the Conservatives should never have joined any European economic joint venture, however the good news was that when the Conservatives left office in 1997 - the economy was in amazing shape and government debt was very very low. Just compare this to 1979 when the economy was on its knees and around now, because at this point in time when Labour leave office in 2009/2010 they will be leaving behind a massive pile of debt which means that yet again, the Conservatives will have to clear up the mess made by Labour.

I think you will find that Black Wednesday was the darkest hour of the British economy with the government having to withdraw the pound from the ERM and the IMF being brought in.

As far as the Poll tax goes it was most definitely not just the unions it was probably one of the biggest UK wide protests ever seen with the majority of the people of this country against it. It brought down Thatcher and left Major having to scrap it very soon after he came to power.

[StefanWolves]

You tell him Catzsy!

[Jippz]

They were not economic disasters such as the winter of discontent, in both them situations we never had to appeal to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) for an emergency bail out which is the worst scenario. The Poll Tax riots have nothing to do economics, infact if anything; they show up the true violent face of socialism.

The topic of the European Fixed Mechanism has nothing to do with the subject of capitalism vs socialism, but i'll explain it anyway.

The unions fell from being the main power behind government to being beaten by the party they hated most, they lost their power and the economy recovered. My own city of Liverpool was ravaged by militantism in the 1970s and 1970s, it destroyed our reputation.

The poll tax riots were mainly organised by the unions which by that time were stripped of their powers - is that anyway to behave over taxes? - Labour introduces more taxes than the Conservatives ever did & raises taxes more than the Conservatives ever did, yet no one is protesting about it because its Labour - I think that tells us a lot, if your confused about poll tax here is it simply explained;

Before Poll Tax
Before Poll Tax, say if I and a group of five friends were living in your house but you owned the house, you would pay all of the 'council tax' for us all. That would mean the householder paying for the people who lived within the house, despite all of us equally using council services such as roads, rubbish collections and so forth.

After Poll Tax
After Poll Tax, say if it was the same scenario. We would all pay our individual taxes, meaning the unfair burden lifted from the household owner.

Which is fair?

As for Black Wednesday it just proves why I am against the European Union, the Conservatives should never have joined any European economic joint venture, however the good news was that when the Conservatives left office in 1997 - the economy was in amazing shape and government debt was very very low. Just compare this to 1979 when the economy was on its knees and around now, because at this point in time when Labour leave office in 2009/2010 they will be leaving behind a massive pile of debt which means that yet again, the Conservatives will have to clear up the mess made by Labour.

The mess made by labour? Or the mess made by bad times and tories not helping?
I think it went a little like this "Labour's MPs should retire, do the decent thing"
*MPs retire*
"Look at them, they're falling apart!"
The tories don't want what's best for this country, they want what's best for them.
I mean, it was not just labour's MPs claiming expenses and nor was it every last one of them. The tories were just as bad, but they weren't in the direct line of fire so they could just keep slating labour. PFFT.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The mess made by labour? Or the mess made by bad times and tories not helping?
I think it went a little like this "Labour's MPs should retire, do the decent thing"
*MPs retire*
"Look at them, they're falling apart!"
The tories don't want what's best for this country, they want what's best for them.
I mean, it was not just labour's MPs claiming expenses and nor was it every last one of them. The tories were just as bad, but they weren't in the direct line of fire so they could just keep slating labour. PFFT.

You haven't provided any proof on socialism in the 1970s and why you think it would work, and you haven't replied either to my point of millions dead from socialism - when you are going to reply to these points?

As for party politics, no it wasn't Labours fault the downturn, however they have refused to cut spending when debt is rising, they have nationalised the banks with our money yet the banks are still not lending to small business and last of all they put us in a position of having no money before this crash, its like knowing a storm is coming but not taking an umbrella outside.

The Conservatives have not slated Labour over expenses, as neither party is in a position to do so. Where have you got this from? - oh you just made it up. Your right both were just as bad as eachother concerning expenses, but would you care to find me a source where the Conservative Party has a go at Labour over the expenses?

The Conservatives have criticised the government and the House of Commons for its handling of the issue, but they have noT labelled Labour corrupt as that would be hypocrisy at its worst.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Apoligies for the double post, I missed out Rosies post, could somebody kindly merge them?

I think you will find that Black Wednesday was the darkest hour of the British economy with the government having to withdraw the pound from the ERM and the IMF being brought in.

As far as the Poll tax goes it was most definitely not just the unions it was probably one of the biggest UK wide protests ever seen with the majority of the people of this country against it. It brought down Thatcher and left Major having to scrap it very soon after he came to power.

If you think Black Wednesday was the darkest hour of the British economy then you have no idea of economics at all. The IMF did not float the British economy at that time, we have only ever gone to the IMF once to ask for an emgency bailout and that was in 1979, under a socialist Labour government. The country was on its knees, nationwide blackouts today are unthinkable - it was the normal in the 1970s. Do you know what Europe called this country during that period?, the sick man of Europe.

The unions did organise those protests and the tax was actually fair, you youself haven't given your opinion on the matter as I explained as to whether you thought it was fair or not, most likely because you do actually think it was fair?. The only people against the poll tax were those who were selfish and did not want to pay their own way, the biggest protests this country saw were against Labour over the invasion of Iraq and not against Poll tax and Thatcher, so again wrong i'm afraid. Do you not think it speaks volumes when hateful people used violent protests over a tax which wasn't even a new tax, was just a tax reform?

Thatcher was not brought down by the poll tax she was brought down by her own party over the European Union, I hate to say it Rosie but it sounds like your making it up as you go along here or just reading what it says on wikipedia as that states it possibly contributed to the downfall of the Prime Minister Thatcher.

Mm but the economys shrunk the most since it did in the 50's, people are saying this could be far the worst crisis thats ever happened financially.

Your just grinding some sort of axe with this socialism thing and I dont get it. You say you respect the Trade Unions who stuck up for ordinary workers then you say your glad they got destroyed. You hate Brown but for this arguments sake you choose to ignore the damage thats been inflicted on this country to back up some other point.

Why cant you just admit that no one checking these banks and their gogo attitudes has cost us all. This is ultimately a flaw with Capitalism.

Why do you not understand that the unions controlled the democratically elected government in the 1970s and turned it into basic socialism with 80% tax rates on business and wages. It has cost us and it is a flaw, but i'd far rather have a downturn in capitalism once in a while than living in poverty under socialism.

have any of you read the tory leaflets? All of them just use the techniques of the media and take what's on the publics mind to manipulate into saying "Yeah. Labour bad. Big mean men. Get out my government."
Then i read the labour local elections leaflet, and it tells me exactly what he supports and exactly what he has done. But mostly, what he will do. The tories do tell us what they are about, yes. But not on the leaflets. Not on the posters. Not on the tv. Not in the media AT ALL. They tell us their policies in the website, and expect us to know from common knowledge. We have to do the leg work to find out if they are any better than labour, and 90 percent of people aren't really too fussed to do that.

The media are independant and can side with anyone they want, the most popular newspapers are right wing so I think it speaks volumes of public opinion on the subject. There is an option of a left wing newspaper, the guardian but the guardian is so unpopular as a left wing newspaper that it has to be subsidised just to keep running. You cannot argue with sales figures.

Labour also do not have adverts, all partys have political broadcasts at election time. The Conservatives are always in the media, so please stop making this up because they are, just like Labour, Liberal Democrats, UKIP and the BNP are.

[StefanWolves]

*REMOVED*

Edited by :Mobile (Forum Super Moderator): Please do not post to cause arguments.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Removed

How do you find so much spare time to keep scanning the forum to see when i've wrote the crap down?;- more to the point why have you taken me off your ignore list, please do put me back on.

i wanted to remove you so i could see what crap you have been writing up on just lately.

who are you trying to impress may i ask? it isn't like david cameron is watching the forum.

btw i don't scan threads for what you have written, it simply comes up on subscribed threads in the usercp when people have posted in threads that i have written in, so i just check and read.

Alright, so now you've seen it I guess it is goodbye again?

I'm trying to impress no one, just discussing a subject properly just like Rosie, Luke and others are. If it was between you and me to try and impress someone in this thread though, i'm pretty certain i'd win outright. You do scan this thread, nobody makes you click here to post or read my posts and if you do read my posts and do not like them, then dont come back here, its as simple as that.

That is all I have to say about it (yet again) because it would be a great shame if you ruined yet another topical discussion.